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Blanket CS change reverted!!! + more good stuff


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#41 Filthpig

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:18 PM

I was personally looking forward to being able to be feral Druids as a lock/sham team :(

#42 Guest_Talbadar_*

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:18 PM

View PostZilea, on 25 January 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

Awful changes , godcomp will continue to be impossible for paladins to beat ... Ugh, and totemic restoration still untouched
No offense, but we had quite a hard time killing the paladin (or any player) playing the enhance/war/pally in the yaspresents tournament.

#43 Zilea

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:21 PM

View PostCrawthz, on 25 January 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:



Aww, one setup a hpala can't heal? That's too bad.


It's not good game design for a comp or combination of classes to deep , blanket , blanket, Pom poly, instant clone , fear, etc with no diminishing returns . It's bad game design , bad for balance , horrible mechanics and not fun for anyone .

Removing one shots are important (aka warrior burst), but they need to make those ccs dr, and they need to do a few other things like reduce repentance duration , nerf totemic restoration , and remove life swap from shadow . Those are fair changes aimed at pushing the game in the right direction .

Just to let you know , as a holy paladin , my class has never been able to beat wizar cleaves if we can't just blow up a healer because my class is not designed to deal wth 50 ccs that don't dr

#44 khuna

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:26 PM

just shut up and l2p(actually don't thats why I like u) zilea rofl , paladins would be overpowered as fuck if blanket didn't exist, thankfully blizzard realised that before making it go live

watching u play at yas was so hilarous it almost made my whole day by itself

#45 Zilea

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:27 PM

View Postkhuna, on 25 January 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

just shut up and l2p(actually don't thats why I like u) zilea rofl , paladins would be overpowered as fuck if blanket didn't exist, thankfully blizzard realised that before making it go live

watching u play at yas was so hilarous it almost made my whole day by itself

Considering I didn't get to play kitty cleave and had to play with over 200 ping , yeah , it was hilarious. You have also contributed absolutely nothing to this discussion so please stop talking

Edited by Zilea, 25 January 2013 - 09:29 PM.


#46 CreepStatus

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:29 PM

View PostZilea, on 25 January 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

Awful changes , godcomp will continue to be impossible for paladins to beat ... Ugh, and totemic restoration still untouched

weh weh weh

somebody call the whambulance
"two changes that buffed the shit outta my class got reverted back weeehhhh im zilea qqqqq"
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#47 Taoth

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:35 PM

View Postaffix, on 25 January 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:


His note about lack of PvP participation on the PTR is really true.  I think it'd be great if, on this PTR or the next one, we pick specific times/days of the week to mob the PTR with our live characters and run a bunch of 3v3.  It's silly how critical so many of us are towards the devs, when we fail to give enough meaningful feedback on their iterative changes to make informed decisions. If you play, they'll watch you, I promise.

While organized is better than nothing, in a broad statement that just doesn't work great in terms of overall long term PTR balancing solutions. I find it hilarious that GC finally admits that PvP Balancing can't be done properly on the PTR, so I can only hope that hotfixing balance changes continues like it did in the first couple patches, instead of reverting to the Cata scheme of "we're scared to hotfix in between patches cause of the roller coaster effect".

But the barrier to entry for the PTR testing isn't the "time commitment" like GC thinks it is. It is the large logistical commitment of downloading a giant giant giant PTR client (many people don't have unlimited bandwidth as well, so they don't do that) or go through the character copy queue blah blah, only to get to a game version where none their addons work or are configured at all, and then ultimiately find very little to actually do on the PTR because it is generally abandoned.

What I think would be helpful to the PTR process is to have the normal PTR servers like they exist now, but also start up a PTR Arena Tournament server, with a client that is considerably smaller. No character copies, but character creations, and only Stormwind/Org are available, with flying trainers disabled and the Org/SW maps having the exits blocked off. So then all the balancing and spell code can go to this PTR but not the art assets from the new content.

Small PTR download, and arena tournament environment would lend to a lot of people coming to play it, not just to test pvp but to test other character classes they might want to fiddle with on the dummies just for the hell of it.

#48 Canadianpimp_613638

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:35 PM

A better solution would have been to reduce the duration of the blanket silences (maybe 2 seconds for Imp CS/1.5 for Spell Lock) since cross-CC/covering CCs does actually take skill.

The decision whether to blanket or possibly get a lock out 3-4 times longer than the duration of the blanket silence is tougher to make though and rewards interrupters that aren't easily faked.

#49 Nitric

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:38 PM

View PostTaoth, on 25 January 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

While organized is better than nothing, in a broad statement that just doesn't work great in terms of overall long term PTR balancing solutions. I find it hilarious that GC finally admits that PvP Balancing can't be done properly on the PTR, so I can only hope that hotfixing balance changes continues like it did in the first couple patches, instead of reverting to the Cata scheme of "we're scared to hotfix in between patches cause of the roller coaster effect".

But the barrier to entry for the PTR testing isn't the "time commitment" like GC thinks it is. It is the large logistical commitment of downloading a giant giant giant PTR client (many people don't have unlimited bandwidth as well, so they don't do that) or go through the character copy queue blah blah, only to get to a game version where none their addons work or are configured at all, and then ultimiately find very little to actually do on the PTR because it is generally abandoned.

What I think would be helpful to the PTR process is to have the normal PTR servers like they exist now, but also start up a PTR Arena Tournament server, with a client that is considerably smaller. No character copies, but character creations, and only Stormwind/Org are available, with flying trainers disabled and the Org/SW maps having the exits blocked off. So then all the balancing and spell code can go to this PTR but not the art assets from the new content.

Small PTR download, and arena tournament environment would lend to a lot of people coming to play it, not just to test pvp but to test other character classes they might want to fiddle with on the dummies just for the hell of it.

Yes, please.

#50 Vlada

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:39 PM

increase CD on counter spell, mages don't even try to interrupt you on cast this expansion

#51 flannelsoff

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:41 PM

View PostTalbadar, on 25 January 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

No offense, but we had quite a hard time killing the paladin (or any player) playing the enhance/war/pally in the yaspresents tournament.
Zilea did mention it being good next season. Warriors having no warbringer and a 40 second shockwave is huge along with the warrior having to play more defensive with all the second wind/defensive stance nerfs

#52 Mirionx

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:42 PM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 25 January 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

strange as well how mage sp hpala seems to be doing far better then the resto druid variant on live ladders atm as well, yet still bitchy as hell about it :D

As soon as cleaves dissapear from the ladder so will paladins..

#53 Maticzor

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:44 PM

View PostZilea, on 25 January 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

Awful changes , godcomp will continue to be impossible for paladins to beat ... Ugh, and totemic restoration still untouched
and WSP will always be hard to beat as godcomp, there is always counters

#54 Crawthz

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:47 PM

View PostZilea, on 25 January 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

It's not good game design for a comp or combination of classes to deep , blanket , blanket, Pom poly, instant clone , fear, etc with no diminishing returns . It's bad game design , bad for balance , horrible mechanics and not fun for anyone .

Removing one shots are important (aka warrior burst), but they need to make those ccs dr, and they need to do a few other things like reduce repentance duration , nerf totemic restoration , and remove life swap from shadow . Those are fair changes aimed at pushing the game in the right direction .

Just to let you know , as a holy paladin , my class has never been able to beat wizar cleaves if we can't just blow up a healer because my class is not designed to deal wth 50 ccs that don't dr

Yes, and unfortunately your class doesn't cast and if you do, you have Auramastery/Bubble for it. Without blanket CS, your meleefriends would just sit on a mage without a chance of peeling or kiting. THAT is a bad game design.

Blanket CS removal is a good change, game just isn't ready for that yet. A quote from GC, which actually stands correct:

Quote

We use PTR as a time of iteration to try out a lot of changes and see which ones work out or not. We think the time has come to revert some of the PvP nerfs that we made for noble reasons, but which aren't working out. Specifically, we wanted to remove blanket silences and shift the game back more towards casting and interrupts. We think the continual arms race between instant spells, silences and silence immunity isn't good for the long term health of PvP. It is a shift we still plan to make, but we don't think patch 5.2 is the right time to make it. There are a great deal of instant spells and we don't think it is fair or reasonable to remove them all and force so many players (many of whom might not even participate in PvP) to re-learn their class mid-expansion.

If you played a Holy paladin and found your Holy Shock had a longer cooldown, and found Word of Glory had been replaced with (making this up) "Phrase of Glory" with a 2.5 sec cast time, and found that Devotion Aura no longer prevented player silences, you might find yourself a little disoriented. Those are the kinds of changes we think would be necessary to allow interrupts to sufficiently serve as a counter to healing at this point in time.

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#55 Zilea

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:49 PM

View PostMaticzor, on 25 January 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

and WSP will always be hard to beat as godcomp, there is always counters

Problem is wizards wipe out an entire class, not just a comp. my class has been ruined by wizard cleave, if tremor got nerfed on totemic restoration then shamans would be sharing the same issue as my class and more than likely there would be enough complaints about wizards

#56 Vizeverza

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:52 PM

So after being complete god mode for what, 12 seasons now? Mages cry buckets that they can't protect their obviously broken burst damage via blanket CS; I'm actually a firm believer that 90% of Mages don't even attempt to lock a spell on cast anymore. Sure, maybe the complete removal of the blanket would have been overkill, but to keep it how it is in the current state of the game isn't exactly "helping" balance.

The amount of CC in caster and melee cleaves is asinine. I think a good directional change would be moving from the platform of removing or changing CC to a more DR based approach.

#57 Guest_Talbadar_*

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:52 PM

View PostCanadianpimp_613638, on 25 January 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

A better solution would have been to reduce the duration of the blanket silences (maybe 2 seconds for Imp CS/1.5 for Spell Lock) since cross-CC/covering CCs does actually take skill.

The decision whether to blanket or possibly get a lock out 3-4 times longer than the duration of the blanket silence is tougher to make though and rewards interrupters that aren't easily faked.

This is a good point to make. Because of the short cooldown and duration of the blanket... the decision is very simple. Counterspell is a good example of a poorly designed interrupt/blanket. It has a 4 second silence component and a 6 second interrupt component. You are rewarded with a grand 2 seconds of them not casting for waiting to land your lockout on a school. Those schools are only shown about 20% of the time by most classes, so players have ended up just blanketing people almost all expansion long. Having CS + Spell Lock at a 24 second cooldown, I think a 3 second blanket and a 6 second lockout is what works best.

#58 Saikx

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:52 PM

View PostVlada, on 25 January 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

increase CD on counter spell, mages don't even try to interrupt you on cast this expansion

because you dont cast.

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#59 Vioz

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:54 PM

An actual bday present. Really.

#60 Vlada

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:55 PM

View PostSaikx, on 25 January 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

because you dont cast.
nah, because a timed blanket silence is alot more powerful than a lockout. just a poor design by blizzard for this expansion. It was the same with silence on pummel, it barrely mattered if you faked it

Edited by Vlada, 25 January 2013 - 09:57 PM.





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