108 replies to this topic

[Moshe]

tiifa, on 06 February 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

oh AJ why so easy...

This is a warrior forum, what did you expect?

[Braindance]

The rotation on the PTR is way too clunky. Rage in battle stance is ok but the TfB change is really bad - there is absolutely no room for slam and you are almost always with 5 stacks of TfB  because you have no room for them. The new sudden death change means that you will never use slam quite literally. We need a GCD of 1 second to keep up with this rotation. The damage we take in battle stance (unless we are fully resilience gemmed, and when I say fully I mean 320 res gems in every single socket) is unreal - it's the same damage rogues take right now. If all the changes go through like this we will be completely useless in every comp but cheese cleaves that try to win in the first 10 seconds.

Bottom line is shockwave and warbringer nerfs were deserved. Overpower change needs tweaking, def stance should stay 25% with overpower having a cost of 10 rage (like this you can't stay in def stance forever and do almost the same dmg as in battle), but battle stance needs a passive damage reduction. I mean now almost every class has passive damage reduction (even rogues have feint), and we will be left with nothing.

[Wallirik]

Braindance, on 06 February 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

I mean now almost every class has passive damage reduction (even rogues have feint), and we will be left with nothing.

Passive isn't the same as actively using an ability to get dmg reduction, that doesn't even last for a long time.

[Braindance]

Wallirik, on 06 February 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Passive isn't the same as actively using an ability to get dmg reduction, that doesn't even last for a long time.

Certainly, but that's also the reason that rogues have other things to use as well. All I'm saying is that if those changes stay warriors will be completely stupid next patch, because they will still do the same or even more damage than they did before, but they will be cannon fodder after reck is down. I for one, hate this playstyle, and I would easily trade most of that damage for some form of utility. The funny thing is that like this sustained damage will go down and burst will go up - go figure

[Lightsmop]

Braindance, on 06 February 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

The rotation on the PTR is way too clunky. Rage in battle stance is ok but the TfB change is really bad - there is absolutely no room for slam and you are almost always with 5 stacks of TfB  because you have no room for them. The new sudden death change means that you will never use slam quite literally. We need a GCD of 1 second to keep up with this rotation. The damage we take in battle stance (unless we are fully resilience gemmed, and when I say fully I mean 320 res gems in every single socket) is unreal - it's the same damage rogues take right now. If all the changes go through like this we will be completely useless in every comp but cheese cleaves that try to win in the first 10 seconds.

Bottom line is shockwave and warbringer nerfs were deserved. Overpower change needs tweaking, def stance should stay 25% with overpower having a cost of 10 rage (like this you can't stay in def stance forever and do almost the same dmg as in battle), but battle stance needs a passive damage reduction. I mean now almost every class has passive damage reduction (even rogues have feint), and we will be left with nothing.

you forgot that every class is stacking resil right now...so whats so special about warriors being forced to gem resil, when every other class already is?
warriors have the most survivablity by far...i guess.
you have a passive dmg reduction 25%...you have die by the sword 20% and 100% melee...you have spellreflection...you are able to break roots...you have second wind and ofc shieldwall.
i dont see why should not nerf it...

the changes make warrs having to think about their actions and not like right now...just smashing buttons and popping swifty oneshot...
its so ridiculous atm...

edit: how can a warrior be cannon food if they just nerfed defstance to 10%?...i dont see it.

Edited by Lightsmop, 06 February 2013 - 07:19 PM.

[Braindance]

Lightsmop, on 06 February 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

you forgot that every class is stacking resil right now...so whats so special about warriors being forced to gem resil, when every other class already is?
warriors have the most survivablity by far...i guess.
you have a passive dmg reduction 25%...you have die by the sword 20% and 100% melee...you have spellreflection...you are able to break roots...you have second wind and ofc shieldwall.
i dont see why should not nerf it...

the changes make warrs having to think about their actions and not like right now...just smashing buttons and popping swifty oneshot...
its so ridiculous atm...

edit: how can a warrior be cannon food if they just nerfed defstance to 10%?...i dont see it.

I think I explained quite well why I said what I said. If you go def stance on the PTR you do no damage - when I say no damage I mean it. Now you can camp def stance and do almost the same damage as you would do in battle stance because overpower is for free. In def stance you can get 1 ms and 1 overpower every 5 seconds and then you are drained. You don't even have enough rage to use a single hamstring.

I'm all in about thinking what to do how to manage rage etc, but the new system is completely linear - there is no room for thinking. You only use ms and overpower. It's almost the same as BC where all your damage was ms and  whirlwind.

It's a very simple scenario - if you perpetually train the warrior, he will have to stay in def stance all game. In def stance he will do absolutely no damage after the new changes; therefore vs any war comp the "tactic" will be to train the war from start to end till he eventually dies.

And btw, the "swifty oneshot" will still be there because all the stacking cds were left untouched. You will just have to get 100 rage then pop everything.

[Lightsmop]

Braindance, on 06 February 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

It's a very simple scenario - if you perpetually train the warrior, he will have to stay in def stance all game. In def stance he will do absolutely no damage after the new changes; therefore vs any war comp the "tactic" will be to train the war from start to end till he eventually dies.

And btw, the "swifty oneshot" will still be there because all the stacking cds were left untouched. You will just have to get 100 rage then pop everything.

an other alternative would be to position yourself better rather than going mindlessly offensive and dont take care of anything, but the huge dmg you could get out of your swifty.
with the loss of defstance...you have to take care of your positioning and when to pop your CDs without getting raped in the same time.

if you're a good warrior...you will always know how to avoid dmg without just relying on defstance...

its a good change to separate the good warriors from the bad ones...in my opinion at least.
since good warriors will still do huge amounts of dmg even if they're getting trained whilst bad warriors will consider to stay the most of the time in defstance...this will make a huge difference.

Edited by Lightsmop, 06 February 2013 - 07:54 PM.

[brosearch]

Braindance, on 06 February 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

I think I explained quite well why I said what I said. If you go def stance on the PTR you do no damage - when I say no damage I mean it. Now you can camp def stance and do almost the same damage as you would do in battle stance because overpower is for free. In def stance you can get 1 ms and 1 overpower every 5 seconds and then you are drained. You don't even have enough rage to use a single hamstring.

I'm all in about thinking what to do how to manage rage etc, but the new system is completely linear - there is no room for thinking. You only use ms and overpower. It's almost the same as BC where all your damage was ms and  whirlwind.

It's a very simple scenario - if you perpetually train the warrior, he will have to stay in def stance all game. In def stance he will do absolutely no damage after the new changes; therefore vs any war comp the "tactic" will be to train the war from start to end till he eventually dies.

And btw, the "swifty oneshot" will still be there because all the stacking cds were left untouched. You will just have to get 100 rage then pop everything.

you miss exactly the point he is making. you are spoiled beyond belief atm. you can run around doing whatever you want all because def stance (and the ability to do max dmg while in it). it enables you to be reckless.

you still have tons of tool for survival and come 5.2 you will either learn to use them like good warriors do, or you will die.

[Braindance]

Lightsmop, on 06 February 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

an other alternative would be to position yourself better rather than going mindlessly offensive and dont take care of anything, but the huge dmg you could get out of your swifty.
with the loss of defstance...you have to take care of your positioning and when to pop your CDs without getting raped in the same time.

if you're a good warrior...you will always know how to avoid dmg without just relying on defstance...

its a good change to separate the good warriors from the bad ones...in my opinion at least.
since good warriors will still do huge amounts of dmg even if they're getting trained whilst bad warriors will consider to stay the most of the time in defstance...this will make a huge difference.

You will see that this is not really the case if you go on the ptr. You can very easily die in any 4 second stun vs any good team if you are caught in battle stance. It's not a matter of positioning - good warriors have solid positioning even now that the spec is braindead. Besides with a 3 sec cd in stances there is no true stance dancing - once you swap in battle or 3 seconds you are stuck in battle. Any good team will capitalize on that (and they already do on live).

[Braindance]

brosearch, on 06 February 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

you miss exactly the point he is making. you are spoiled beyond belief atm. you can run around doing whatever you want all because def stance (and the ability to do max dmg while in it). it enables you to be reckless.

you still have tons of tool for survival and come 5.2 you will either learn to use them like good warriors do, or you will die.

No man I'm not spoiled, and my current gear is not nearly enough (I resumed playing 2 months ago) to support braindead playstyles like charging and gibbing someone. I already play like this myself - just roll a char on the ptr and see for yourself.

[Lightsmop]

so other classes aren't dealing with the fact that KFCs or Kittycleaves being able to gib someone in 5secs?
a warrior who popped his oneshot macro is able to kill a druid with barkskin up if he doesnt have trinket and doesnt get any support.

you arent alone in 3v3...so you can rely on help of your teammates, but you then will see if the support was good enough that you can live through it.

if youre presenting the example of being killed in a stun...you can also go on live...a mage/shadow who catch you even in defstance in a deep will easily kill you...every single classcombination is able to kill you in a stun if you let them do this...so this isnt a good argument to say that the nerf is ridiculous.

[Hyrmine]

you cant do max dmg in def stance. good players witch when they want to do a lot of dmg

[Braindance]

Just roll a char on the ptr, because you obviously don't see what I'm saying

[Covlol]

Lightsmop, on 06 February 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

so other classes aren't dealing with the fact that KFCs or Kittycleaves being able to gib someone in 5secs?
a warrior who popped his oneshot macro is able to kill a druid with barkskin up if he doesnt have trinket and doesnt get any support.

you arent alone in 3v3...so you can rely on help of your teammates, but you then will see if the support was good enough that you can live through it.

if youre presenting the example of being killed in a stun...you can also go on live...a mage/shadow who catch you even in defstance in a deep will easily kill you...every single classcombination is able to kill you in a stun if you let them do this...so this isnt a good argument to say that the nerf is ridiculous.

Something u biased tards are missing is that EVERY good dps class in the game right now has some form of passive DMR or a lot of self peels.

Warrior - D-stance, great mobility
Shadow - Shadow Form, self heals
Moonkin - Moonkin Form, self heals, mobility,
Feral - Retarded amount of cc/mobility
Rogue - Feint (i know not passive) great amount of self peels
Mage - Ice Barrior, Molten armor, roots comming out their ass, cc spam
Hunter - aspect of the w/e it is that gives them like 15% dmr


Next patch they are taking that away from warrior in the form of when a warrior goes D, he can not do any of the things these other classes can do (dmg) while having this.

Simple fix... give 10-15% (10% more likely) DMR into battle stance so that we can choose to D up and it actually mean it for once. OR remove the cost of overpower so we can mindlessly sit in 15%dmr d stance all game and still do some dmg.

I personally would like to see the first fix rather than the second..

[Lightsmop]

KFC retard has spoken...thats why i hate some 2.2k tards are getting access and just flaming other ppl.

what you miss is the amount of survivability the warrior got...second wind nuff said?
the mobility is also a kind of survivability to avoid dmg, which the most classes dont have.
tell me how a priest can avoid getting trained...he doesnt have any escape ability apart from "vanish", which isnt even a good one.

if youre a good warr you will always be able to live through big CC chains by charging around or leaping around...

most of the time i'm playing healers and the warrior is by far the easiest class to heal through dmg whilst mages cant even risk to get trained by hunter/warrior without them popping CDs...thats a huge difference.

Edited by Lightsmop, 06 February 2013 - 09:11 PM.

[brosearch]

Lightsmop, on 06 February 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

KFC retard has spoken...thats why i hate some 2.2k tards are getting access and just flaming other ppl.

what you miss is the amount of survivability the warrior got...second wind nuff said?
the mobility is also a kind of survivability to avoid dmg, which the most classes dont have.
tell me how a priest can avoid getting trained...he doesnt have any escape ability apart from "vanish", which isnt even a good one.

if youre a good warr you will always be able to live through big CC chains by charging around or leaping around...

most of the time i'm playing healers and the warrior is by far the easiest class to heal through dmg whilst mages cant even risk to get trained by hunter/warrior without them popping CDs...thats a huge difference.

bro its us who are biased not all these wars who just got access lol

[hairpiece]

Covlol, on 06 February 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

Something u biased tards are missing is that EVERY good dps class in the game right now has some form of passive DMR or a lot of self peels.

Warrior - D-stance, great mobility
Shadow - Shadow Form, self heals
Moonkin - Moonkin Form, self heals, mobility,
Feral - Retarded amount of cc/mobility
Rogue - Feint (i know not passive) great amount of self peels
Mage - Ice Barrior, Molten armor, roots comming out their ass, cc spam
Hunter - aspect of the w/e it is that gives them like 15% dmr


Next patch they are taking that away from warrior in the form of when a warrior goes D, he can not do any of the things these other classes can do (dmg) while having this.

Simple fix... give 10-15% (10% more likely) DMR into battle stance so that we can choose to D up and it actually mean it for once. OR remove the cost of overpower so we can mindlessly sit in 15%dmr d stance all game and still do some dmg.

I personally would like to see the first fix rather than the second..

people do less damage when they uses defenses, priests do no damage if they are healing, mages do a lot less damage without the mastery from mage armor (also, ice barrier as a passive defense??? lol????  gets broken in one hit/purged/tranq shot/dispelled instantly), rogues defenses really shouldn't even count because you can still kill them in one stun with all their cd's up, etc etc etc.  The only class right now that isn't even remotely punished for sitting in a defensive the entire game is warrior, on top of it being too strong of a damage reduction.  You SHOULD do less damage if you are playing defensive, that is the point of it being DEFENSIVE.   I just don't understand some of you guys thought process.

[Deonto]

Well, you should lose damage. Just not all of it. And that was the case before slams rage cost was changed(keeping up Hamstring plus maybe TC was a lot to ask for in Dstance). But after slam got the rage change, it's a lot better. Still a little harsh in my opinion, but isn't the end of the world.

In any case, I feel arms is completely fine on the ptr at the moment. The only issue is that the rotation does feel a bit.. Too much in pvp. With OP now procing sudden death, and now having to use hamstring more, there's just simply too many buttons that need to be pressed. But it's probably a good thing because after arms gets Seasoned Soldier adjusted, the spec will be doing... quite a bit more damage.

A "too many buttons to press" rotation, and with the way defensive stance is atm, will help to keep warriors damage in check a bit(though, will prob feel too high to most people. I see a lot of QQ inc).

Also, a small side note, you do lose damage for sitting in Dstance on live. Well, you lose dps(roughly 20%). Same for next patch(dps loss while in Dstance is prob around 35%-40% now. less if you are charging often).

And if you still want to be able to sit in Dstance but keep most of your damage/dps, just play fury. On the ptr atm, it only loses around 20%-25% dps for sitting in Dstance. You have to manage your MS debuff, but you also have a lot more free GCDs. And can even use glyph of hindering. Fury also has quite a bit of burst if I do say so myself.... Though, I foresee arms being the better spec still with the amount of consistent damage/reliable burst it will have.

Edited by Deonto, 06 February 2013 - 10:32 PM.

[Braindance]

hairpiece, on 06 February 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

people do less damage when they uses defenses, priests do no damage if they are healing, mages do a lot less damage without the mastery from mage armor (also, ice barrier as a passive defense??? lol????  gets broken in one hit/purged/tranq shot/dispelled instantly), rogues defenses really shouldn't even count because you can still kill them in one stun with all their cd's up, etc etc etc.  The only class right now that isn't even remotely punished for sitting in a defensive the entire game is warrior, on top of it being too strong of a damage reduction.  You SHOULD do less damage if you are playing defensive, that is the point of it being DEFENSIVE.   I just don't understand some of you guys thought process.

I completely agree, but what you described is no the case. You do like 20% of you damage in def stance on the ptr. I've been around for a long time, but never have I seen such a clunky rotation before. There is literally no choice on what abilities you use every global - you are flooded with overpowers that you have to use for sudden death. Even in PvE the rotation is only CS MS ovepower and nothing else - you have absolutely no room or rage for anything else (all the above in battle stance). You can barely keep hamstring up in def stance . The current rage system blows for pvp and so does the stance system. Warriors are the most retarded thing ever on the ptr - retaining stupid abilities like second wind and being able to pop all cds at once, but being so clunky and unnatural that you can't keep a proper rotation up even if no one touches you and you play in battle stance. It's simply not fun and completely skill-less

[hairpiece]

Braindance, on 06 February 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

I completely agree, but what you described is no the case. You do like 20% of you damage in def stance on the ptr. I've been around for a long time, but never have I seen such a clunky rotation before. There is literally no choice on what abilities you use every global - you are flooded with overpowers that you have to use for sudden death. Even in PvE the rotation is only CS MS ovepower and nothing else - you have absolutely no room or rage for anything else (all the above in battle stance). You can barely keep hamstring up in def stance . The current rage system blows for pvp and so does the stance system. Warriors are the most retarded thing ever on the ptr - retaining stupid abilities like second wind and being able to pop all cds at once, but being so clunky and unnatural that you can't keep a proper rotation up even if no one touches you and you play in battle stance. It's simply not fun and completely skill-less

theres ways around that utility wise other than just making you do dps, they could do things like make hamstring cost less rage in def stance, or simply just make d stance for non prot work like it used to and nerf damage by a % while leaving rage gen the same as battle stance.  of course i'm sure they won't do anything like that as they will use the excuse they don't want to change things mid expansion.


i've also been seeing a lot of posts similar to this one

http://us.battle.net...opic/7811022589

and people posting to gc, most of them have had no complaints about the rage gen at all, in pve especially, but also pvp (rotation wise, non D-Stance).

Edited by hairpiece, 06 February 2013 - 11:51 PM.