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SP Mass Dispeling CC.. Too good?


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#41

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:47 PM

View Postdionim, on 22 January 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

worst ideia ever, its something like saying that they should remove finger os frost from mages (lol).

Priest damage IS fine, a couple times some burst but aside from that we have to cast alot (still not much but compared to lock, mage, bookim we do) the problem in the support we bring, i think spriests are fine, its trainable, go oom fast if you cant spam VT the cc isnt very good cuz it requires meele range, but i also agree that MD is really good nowdays, i think if they nerf instant cc like insta fear, pom ring, pom polly they should raise MD cd for shadows for like 25s or so.

edit. also shadow damage is not even close to the other classes damage. aside from orbs witch you have 3 every 25s IF you cast MB on cd

I have been 100-0d by shadowpriests in a blanket silence. Its more rare than from certain other classes, but shadowfiend burst is insane, its CD and damage should be reduced. (JUST FEAR IT HUR), Can't do that while silenced/horror'd.

View PostDjandawg, on 22 January 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

People need to stop asking for removal of core abilities that define the class simply because that ability is strong against their class. Arena isn't 1v1.

I said remove the glyph, not the ability. 0.3 seconds casts are stupid, at that point why not just make it instant?

Edited by Radejjj, 22 January 2013 - 02:50 PM.


#42 saffie

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:52 PM

View PostTalbadar, on 22 January 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

I've considered solutions like putting Dispersion on a cooldown when Void Shift is used, but I have seen countless times where the Priest life swaps and all the enemy team has to do is keep training the target that was low, not swap to the Spriest. Not enough people try that, and end up losing time going after the player will full defenses left just because it "feels" right to go after them. Even when the Spriest is low and life swaps with anyone on their team - if they have full defenses they are likely not going to die. So, the problem exists not only when the Priest swaps health with a low partner, but when a low health Priest swaps health with their partner.

I personally dont mind it that much when a sp is forced to use void shift defensively for himself, it doesn't happen too often and well its usually about who you are playing with, if you play with a mage who has block left he can just block right after obviously, but if you are forced to void shift your shaman healer then its great to switch on him, even if he has some defensives left, its all too situational, and one of the biggest problems with blizzard is that when they nerf something they nerf it too much, I dont want sps to get nerfed into the ground just because they are so very powerful right now, just want them to get on par with the other casters. I strongly believe that the way to fix the game is to do small changes, see how much it has changed and tune it up if neccessary, but what happens often is that they nerf a certain thing too much and make it unusable and never revert the change.

I also believe that fade needs to be higher cd for sps, and the amount of fear breaks (tremor, berserking, lichbourne etc) need to be nerfed overall. This would help both warlocks and shadow priests, especially vs melee teams. It was okay to have so many fear breaks up until mop where you could ua+fear someone and they would have to risk between dispelling ua and dispelling fear, so it was the most consisitent cc in the game since poly would get spam dispelled, now 1 dispel erases everything so you get the fear dispelled instantly much like you would dispel a sheep, same goes for vampiric touch. And dispel having a cd works very well for mages who nova and spam sheep, since there are almost no breaks off of sheeps/rings apart from a druid shapeshifting I feel like fear overall is the least reliable cc in the game especially taking account that shamans are so popular and tremor, for whatever reason, has 30 seconds cd.

#43 Guest_Talbadar_*

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:56 PM

View Postsaffie, on 22 January 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

I personally dont mind it that much when a sp is forced to use void shift defensively for himself, it doesn't happen too often and well its usually about who you are playing with, if you play with a mage who has block left he can just block right after obviously, but if you are forced to void shift your shaman healer then its great to switch on him, even if he has some defensives left, its all too situational, and one of the biggest problems with blizzard is that when they nerf something they nerf it too much, I dont want sps to get nerfed into the ground just because they are so very powerful right now, just want them to get on par with the other casters. I strongly believe that the way to fix the game is to do small changes, see how much it has changed and tune it up if neccessary, but what happens often is that they nerf a certain thing too much and make it unusable and never revert the change.

I also believe that fade needs to be higher cd for sps, and the amount of fear breaks (tremor, berserking, lichbourne etc) need to be nerfed overall. This would help both warlocks and shadow priests, especially vs melee teams. It was okay to have so many fear breaks up until mop where you could ua+fear someone and they would have to risk between dispelling ua and dispelling fear, so it was the most consisitent cc in the game since poly would get spam dispelled, now 1 dispel erases everything so you get the fear dispelled instantly much like you would dispel a sheep, same goes for vampiric touch. And dispel having a cd works very well for mages who nova and spam sheep, since there are almost no breaks off of sheeps/rings apart from a druid shapeshifting I feel like fear overall is the least reliable cc in the game especially taking account that shamans are so popular and tremor, for whatever reason, has 30 seconds cd.

Yeah, I agree small changes are good. I'm okay with Berserker Rage and Lichborne. Not so much Tremor. Even at 1 minute cooldown it's kind of ridiculous. 30 is some kind of tragic joke. You wouldn't believe how excited I was to full fear Cara (Warrior) and Flubbah (Shaman) at the same time for a kill in one of our games.

#44 Keiret

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:01 PM

View PostTalbadar, on 22 January 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

Because Spriest burst is not an issue. Shadowfiend + 3 orb plague with DoTs and procs is a lot of damage, but requires set up time and you can easily monitor the damage you are going to be taking. Devouring Plague damage without on use trinket + fiend is not scary.

Wouldn't you rather see a nerf to ANY other aspect of shadowpriests over MD? I play a SP myself and the reality is, I wouldn't care too much if MD got nerfed, because we are already so strong in all other ways. However, MD does require some skill to use and is the most interesting ability we have in my opinion, which is why I'd rather see a nerf in other areas.

#45 Surel

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:06 PM

we are allredy getting nerfed to the ground: Halo - will not longer unstealth enemy targets. That wasn't the use we had in mind when we made it a huge AE.

Shadow wont be viable next season, you heard it here first

#46 Guest_Talbadar_*

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:10 PM

View PostKeiret, on 22 January 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

Wouldn't you rather see a nerf to ANY other aspect of shadowpriests over MD? I play a SP myself and the reality is, I wouldn't care too much if MD got nerfed, because we are already so strong in all other ways. However, MD does require some skill to use and is the most interesting ability we have in my opinion, which is why I'd rather see a nerf in other areas.

I don't see the skill factor in MD now that it just removes everything and has a cooldown. Only thing it requires is being aware that your healer got CC'd, find them, and put it down. I felt it required a high degree of skill to use when it only removed 1 debuff, and had no CD. Pre-emptively dispelling CC was more viable - and working hard to get an important debuff off your healer was an interesting mechanic. It was overpowered against Mages, but was still fun.

#47 hertzuk

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:12 PM

They could easily make it so that MD only takes one debuff off each person again (with no CD of course, huge mana cost to prevent spamming).

There's never a time where it'd need to do multiple in PVE, and this would make it somewhat 'reasonable' in pvp again.


Now Fade, there is something that really needs fixing.

Edited by hertzuk, 22 January 2013 - 03:15 PM.

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#48 dionim

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:18 PM

remove phantasm and you kill disc priest even if u trade it for bubble

#49 Keiret

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:20 PM

View PostTalbadar, on 22 January 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

Only thing it requires is being aware that your healer got CC'd, find them, and put it down.
That's still more than almost every other ability in this game.

#50 Djandawg

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:26 PM

View PostTalbadar, on 22 January 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

You wouldn't believe how excited I was to full fear Cara (Warrior) and Flubbah (Shaman) at the same time for a kill in one of our games.

Can we say that the emotion was close to landing a 720 dunk?

#51 Chancesz

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:29 PM

it's a very tricky situation. if you nerf shadowpriests the following things will happen:

-resto druids become VERY weak
-KFC wins every game

#52 saffie

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:42 PM

View PostTalbadar, on 22 January 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

Yeah, I agree small changes are good. I'm okay with Berserker Rage and Lichborne. Not so much Tremor. Even at 1 minute cooldown it's kind of ridiculous. 30 is some kind of tragic joke. You wouldn't believe how excited I was to full fear Cara (Warrior) and Flubbah (Shaman) at the same time for a kill in one of our games.
Ye when I saw that I thought to myself if thats even possible as a sp, as a warlock I get the tremor off with one fear but then when the dr is back i have about 10 seconds~~ to fear him and if I have to play defensive in those 10 seconds I will never get a fear on a shaman. Wonder how it will be once blood fear is nerfed.

I personally dont mind lichbourne as much as I mind berserking rage because its just too little cd compared, and a dk using lichbourne offensively sacrifises self healing when he will need it later I guess, but berserking rage is and has always been dumb, and whenever warriors become popular in arena those are the exact times warlocks aren't so good, its almost impossible to get proper peels on a warrior when you play a warlock. I'd assume so for an sp as well. Getting berserking rage and tremor to be somewhere between 60-90 seconds cd would go a long way for both sps and warlocks and would more than compensate for the voidshift/massdispel/fade nerfs, if there would be any, and it would also get warlocks in a better position against these 2 classes.

#53 Djandawg

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:50 PM

View PostChancesz, on 22 January 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

it's a very tricky situation. if you nerf shadowpriests the following things will happen:

-resto druids become VERY weak
-KFC wins every game
Exactly true, it feels like this is the design goal. Every single step they take points to the fact that they want the melee cleave / kfc to rule pvp.
-Adding many gap closer / snare breaker abilities for melee
-Buffing freedom ( shamans gained an aoe freedom - which can benefit from totemic restoration and paladins got a second freedom)
-Adding more stuns ./ interrupts to majority of the melee classes.
-Nerfing heavily the classes that provide help with dealing melee, mage / druid.

The last one is particularly important because when you don't get assist as caster against melee tunnels, you don't get a casting window . Most of the games as shadow priest , you are stunned/interrupted so heavily, your pressure is really weak and it's easier for the other team to cc your healer, without that md, there is no way to overcome melee - "casting" caster unfairness(infinite cycle of stuns and interrupts preventing casts of one guy)

#54 saffie

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:58 PM

View PostDjandawg, on 22 January 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

Exactly true, it feels like this is the design goal. Every single step they take points to the fact that they want the melee cleave / kfc to rule pvp.
-Adding many gap closer / snare breaker abilities for melee
-Buffing freedom ( shamans gained an aoe freedom - which can benefit from totemic restoration and paladins got a second freedom)
-Adding more stuns ./ interrupts to majority of the melee classes.
-Nerfing heavily the classes that provide help with dealing melee, mage / druid.

The last one is particularly important because when you don't get assist as caster against melee tunnels, you don't get a casting window . Most of the games as shadow priest , you are stunned/interrupted so heavily, your pressure is really weak and it's easier for the other team to cc your healer, without that md, there is no way to overcome melee - "casting" caster unfairness(infinite cycle of stuns and interrupts preventing casts of one guy)

I think you should compare yourself to other casters rather than making a melee vs caster comparison. If you as sps are having a hard time when someone sits on you, what do you think other casters feel like who don't have %15 passive damage reduction and instant spells that damage pretty good compared.

#55 Maticzor

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:00 PM

Void swap is fine, MD every deep is not with blanket nerf next patch, so after spectral guise/fade and 10 million jukes, u land a poly, you go for the deep kill on healer, priest trinket to md.

View PostTalbadar, on 22 January 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

It was overpowered against Mages, but was still fun.
Idd, keep your swap and shit but MD my deeps is cheating, #mad

Edited by Maticzor, 22 January 2013 - 04:01 PM.


#56 Guest_Talbadar_*

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:02 PM

View PostDjandawg, on 22 January 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

Exactly true, it feels like this is the design goal. Every single step they take points to the fact that they want the melee cleave / kfc to rule pvp.
-Adding many gap closer / snare breaker abilities for melee
-Buffing freedom ( shamans gained an aoe freedom - which can benefit from totemic restoration and paladins got a second freedom)
-Adding more stuns ./ interrupts to majority of the melee classes.
-Nerfing heavily the classes that provide help with dealing melee, mage / druid.

The last one is particularly important because when you don't get assist as caster against melee tunnels, you don't get a casting window . Most of the games as shadow priest , you are stunned/interrupted so heavily, your pressure is really weak and it's easier for the other team to cc your healer, without that md, there is no way to overcome melee - "casting" caster unfairness(infinite cycle of stuns and interrupts preventing casts of one guy)

You say melee cleaves will be dominant and without MD you can't overcome them, but there isn't much if anything to dispel from your healer against melee cleaves. Only when the melee cleave involves a Hunter, a Holy Paladin, or Disc Priest will you need to worry about dispelling anything. Warriors are getting heavy nerfs and will be much easier to pressure back next patch. They are the main offenders of lockdown. Hopefully Rogues don't take over this role.

#57 dionim

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:05 PM

View Postsaffie, on 22 January 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

I think you should compare yourself to other casters rather than making a melee vs caster comparison. If you as sps are having a hard time when someone sits on you, what do you think other casters feel like who don't have %15 passive damage reduction and instant spells that damage pretty good compared.
15% reduction: mages, balance druids
instant cast that damage pretty good: every other caster
to get procs you need to cast, to get DP you need to cast so...

amazing support tools: noone get even close to sp.

Edited by dionim, 22 January 2013 - 04:07 PM.


#58 Djandawg

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:17 PM

View PostTalbadar, on 22 January 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

You say melee cleaves will be dominant and without MD you can't overcome them, but there isn't much if anything to dispel from your healer against melee cleaves. Only when the melee cleave involves a Hunter, a Holy Paladin, or Disc Priest will you need to worry about dispelling anything. Warriors are getting heavy nerfs and will be much easier to pressure back next patch. They are the main offenders of lockdown. Hopefully Rogues don't take over this role.
Holy paladin is an amazing cc'er at the moment. If I am locked down , I do no dmg, paladin can easily cc my healer because he has nothing else to do and unless you are on an experimental ladder, almost every physical cleave you meet will have a hunter and/or a holy paladin.
And it's not only warrior or feral getting nerfed, it's a general concern, they nerf those two but buff rogues and monks, which will have similar lockdowns.

Edited by Djandawg, 22 January 2013 - 04:20 PM.


#59 saffie

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:20 PM

View Postdionim, on 22 January 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

15% reduction: mages, balance druids
instant cast that damage pretty good: every other caster
to get procs you need to cast, to get DP you need to cast so...

amazing support tools: noone get even close to sp.

I'm sorry what do warlocks have as instant cast that damage pretty good? What about ele shamans? No passive damage reduction for them either, needless to say no md. Defending you need MD vs cleaves because they are too good is wrong. They should be (are getting) nerfed, and sps should be on par with other casters.

#60 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:24 PM

View PostDjandawg, on 22 January 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:


Exactly true, it feels like this is the design goal. Every single step they take points to the fact that they want the melee cleave / kfc to rule pvp.
Most likely because their balance changes are increasingly focused towards a sub 2.2k or 2k level since that is where the majority of the arena player base exists, and the biggest and loudest complaints from this group consist of melee cleave whine about cc, roots, effects that prevent them being in 100% control of their character at all times

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)




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