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MM vs BM for KFC.

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#21 Mushx

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 12:19 PM

BM because of the extra 1 min trinket, 20+ energy, more focus regen (from BM passives), intimidation, exotic pets (more buffs + shale spider) and lower pet CDs (Sac, lullaby, etc.). BM can also do more damage when you are being trained because of the extra trinket and your pet does damage while you are CC'd or are being lined. Your pet does get randomly CC'd as well but your probably eating more stuns and CC than he is.

The only real reason to play MM is when you play against comps that like to turtle and one shot your pet. Losing a pet as MM isn't as punishing. But even then teams will just run around pillars all day to LOS your damage. Most hunters that are playing MM right now do it for pride and show.

MM is not bad but BM is just better.

#22 fant0m8

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:52 AM

View PostMushx, on 27 January 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

BM because of the extra 1 min trinket, 20+ energy, more focus regen (from BM passives), intimidation, exotic pets (more buffs + shale spider) and lower pet CDs (Sac, lullaby, etc.). BM can also do more damage when you are being trained because of the extra trinket and your pet does damage while you are CC'd or are being lined. Your pet does get randomly CC'd as well but your probably eating more stuns and CC than he is.

The only real reason to play MM is when you play against comps that like to turtle and one shot your pet. Losing a pet as MM isn't as punishing. But even then teams will just run around pillars all day to LOS your damage. Most hunters that are playing MM right now do it for pride and show.

MM is not bad but BM is just better.

It's not like it's easy to win a game as MM without a pet. Or at least it used to be almost always GG, maybe you don't need it as much anymore.

The advantage of MM when they want to kill the pet is keeping it on passive and alive and not losing too much.

If the pet actually dies and you can't get it back then you're probably fucked, regardless of spec.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#23 Nitric

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:37 AM

Pretty dumb that hunter's only instant res is reliant on speccing the pet Ferocity, which -most- people don't do (unless playing against certain comps where your pet will likely die to just passive dots/sac damage). What do Warlocks get, like one instant res every two minutes or something? (Granted, that's only for Demo, but that's their pet spec -- our BM pet spec gets an instant rez once every 8 minutes).

And their base summoning time is lower than ours. I DEMAND NERFS.

#24 Apsco60

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:58 AM

DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO
MM
you do the damage vs your pet doing the damage
chim heals vs bm having no healing except certain pets

BM
1 minute trinket
faster bullheaded and other pet abilities including sac
bigger focus pool
better focus regen
more bursty and better scaling with stampede

P.S pet rez should be 4.5 seconds non scaling with haste so we could do it in deterrence. JK you can kick through deter

#25 dionim

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 10:34 AM

Being a bm hunter
is like being a mage who can cast 2 spells at once like polly/frostbomb

when a hunter is scatering trap me, hes like on the other side of the arena stuck aiming his trap and my partner is already at 60% cuz of he pet doing the same damage as a frostbomb crit would do in that time.

#26 Nitric

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:05 AM

View Postdionim, on 18 February 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

Being a bm hunter
is like being a mage who can cast 2 spells at once like polly/frostbomb

when a hunter is scatering trap me, hes like on the other side of the arena stuck aiming his trap and my partner is already at 60% cuz of he pet doing the same damage as a frostbomb crit would do in that time.

Maybe your partner should try eating the traps instead of being on the other side of the map.

#27 Nitric

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:10 AM

View PostApsco60, on 18 February 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO
MM
you do the damage vs your pet doing the damage
chim heals (lol) vs bm having no healing except certain pets
Marks having shit focus regen outside of Rapid Fire/Recuperation + retarded focus costs on Chimera Shot for how little damage it actually does.

BM
1 minute trinket (that resets with Readiness  - Removed in WOTLK but returned for MoP)
faster bullheaded and other pet abilities including sac -
bigger focus pool & better focus regen
more bursty and better scaling with stampede
All of Mark's previously unique utility + Intimidation

P.S pet rez should be 4.5 seconds non scaling with haste lowered because trying to get a 5.8+ second rez off is pretty much impossible if your (290k health / 0 resilience) pet dies. Abusing /abandon pet scripts is not fun, nor is having to dismiss/new pet for abilities (why hasn't that been nerfed yet like it has been for mages / locks?)

Edited by Nitric, 18 February 2013 - 11:11 AM.


#28 dionim

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:32 AM

View PostNitric, on 18 February 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Maybe your partner should try eating the traps instead of being on the other side of the map.

are you good at hunter? if not put a pally on your team, you dont even need to trap heh, specially against double meele being healed by a discpriest

i was laughing when i saw a kfc that when the hunter scatter/trap me, the pally start to repeteance me at the same time LOL

#29 Nitric

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:54 PM

I'm confused. I've seen good disc priests live through KFC because their partners aren't garbage and know how to peel. I've also seen good priests teams beat KFC when the priest isn't getting trained because their partners aren't garbage and know how to go defensive against KFC.

Oh, you play with a Ret, the squishiest melee DPS. That makes sense.

Edited by Nitric, 18 February 2013 - 04:01 PM.


#30 dionim

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 04:34 PM

View PostNitric, on 18 February 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

I'm confused. I've seen good disc priests live through KFC because their partners aren't garbage and know how to peel. I've also seen good priests teams beat KFC when the priest isn't getting trained because their partners aren't garbage and know how to go defensive against KFC.

Oh, you play with a Ret, the squishiest melee DPS. That makes sense.

i dont think we had a loss when kfc go on war, he had something like 2 when they go for me (100 loses, 2 when they train me, ofc lifeswap switch doenst count, but bop plus fade save me most of times)

im probably that much buthurt because of my comp being really bad, if you check shadowburn ladder, you will see that is only KFC, we are doing really well against then but right now really well doenst mean you win the match.

theres 2 things that i dont LIKE about hunter, BM spec having that much utility and easy damage, and pet having a low cd cc that doenst dr with any other the 3 hunter cc's (with 30s less cd on each of those 3)
those are things that i dont LIKE (doenst mean its op i just think is really dumb, specially against a priest)

and theres more 2 things that i see that need to be tuned down.
idk about hunter GCD if its 1.5 or 1, but even 1,5 GCD the dispel shot from hunter are really good compared to any other dispels
use a resource that BM hunters doenst use much at all, even it they use it have a high chance to get free dispel shots, dont lose that much dps compared to another dispel classes (dps/hps if the dispeler is a healer) and brings that tool to a full physical dps class (this is huge if you think about)
the other thing is readness reseting BM, i dont see this being balanced in any possible scenario this hability could be used, as a disc priest my most important cd is TRINKET (life swap is the worst defensive cd ever, together with PS being the second worst, IMO aura mastery best priest CD outside of trinket) hunters can joke about trinkets, i would consider not even using one in some matches as a hunter.

well im maybe biased but that is how my matches go against hunters
and my partners isnt garbade, my ret is a gladiator one, and my warrior a former glad, we had 2400 this season has this comp in a bg with 8KFC for 10 teams on top10

Edited by dionim, 18 February 2013 - 04:36 PM.


#31 Nitric

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 04:44 PM

I'm just going to copy and paste my response in the other thread, as it's pretty much applicable to this post as well.

View Postdionim, on 18 February 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

as a disc priest it ofc hurts me alot more than other healers, and my bg is full of kfcs (thats my win/loss ratio is bad and we still have 2200+ as ret disc war)

hunter cc is very good but was always there, what pisses me off is that they dont even lose damage while cc'ing anymore =\

The only CC that has really changed is the addition of the Shale Spider's/Crane's non-casted CC (vs. the old Monkey blind that had a .5? second cast). We lose the same amount of damage as everyone else, arguably more if we have to use Scatter to trap (another global).

A lot of the problem with KFC is the amount of pressure a warrior can do. Hunter's just mesh well with warriors (what doesn't mesh well with warriors right now?). A lot of people complain about hunter CC, but it hasn't changed much over the past 6 years (aside from the addition of Trap Launcher and pet abilities).

Scatter - 4s disorient, breaks on damage. 30s CD. On the GCD.
Trap - 8 second incapacitate, breaks on damage. 28s CD w/ glove bonus. On the GCD.
Silencing Shot - 4 second blanket silence, 20s CD. NOT on the GCD.
Shale Spider (Crane) - 3 second stun (4 second sleep), 31.5s CD (42s CD / breaks on damage). NOT on the GCD.

I guess I'm biased though, but when I compare hunter CC to mage CC, it seems pretty even, yet I rarely see people complaining about mage CC. I'll probably get flamed for this, but oh well. The amount of CC that the game currently has is pretty ridiculous. I'd gladly trade some hunter CC for the removal of other class's CC as well.

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the hunter is doing nothing but traping/dispeling and my partner are already at 60%~ hp without tanking any damaging shot from the hunter.

That's a problem with hunters? If the hunter is only CCing, your partners should be eating the CC. Traps are probably one of the easier CCs to stop.

Quote

bm with all those tools ruined hunter class imo, they should bring back mm/surv for pvp =\

I think every (good) hunter wants MM back. The BM playstyle is boring, but the utility that BM has over MM is astounding, so much that it isn't even really worth playing MM.

#32 Nitric

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 04:46 PM

Regarding dispel - what's the difference between Tranq Shot and Purge for Enh (they get two dispels per purge if they glyph it), Spell Steal for mages (never run out of mana), etc? Hunter's are limited by focus (cap of 120 as BM, tranq shot costing 1/6th of our pool).

Edited by Nitric, 18 February 2013 - 04:46 PM.


#33 dionim

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 05:12 PM

View PostNitric, on 18 February 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

Regarding dispel - what's the difference between Tranq Shot and Purge for Enh (they get two dispels per purge if they glyph it), Spell Steal for mages (never run out of mana), etc? Hunter's are limited by focus (cap of 120 as BM, tranq shot costing 1/6th of our pool).

mage spell steal are very good, but now they can use it 4 times before going oom and then they need to wait at least 8 seconds to use another one

hunter's are pure physical dps class, that has ranged damage/dispels, it use focus as a resource that BM hunter doenst care alot about
(i almost never see a bm hunter using steadyshot now days) your spamable hability that uses focus is really bad, i bet your best hability that doenst have cd and cost focus is tranq shot right?

6 gcds to spend all focus. 6x9 (focus regen x seconds) = 54
if your pet hit once per second with 15% chance to regen 20 focus for 9 seconds you have 76,84% chance to ge it

54+20 = 74 it give you more 3 dispels that spend more 4,5 seconds that generates more 27 focus and have more chance to proc more focus from your pet.

you can spam that shit at least 10 times in row, and your pet still do decent damage, and the other classes do 0 damage (not counting autoattacks from hunter or enhance for example)

enhance is op as fuck too, and is getting nerf (by the same fact that is the best global you can use when your damage habilitys are on cd, same has hunters)

#34 Kettu

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 05:45 PM

View Postdionim, on 18 February 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

mage spell steal are very good, but now they can use it 4 times before going oom and then they need to wait at least 8 seconds to use another one

hunter's are pure physical dps class, that has ranged damage/dispels, it use focus as a resource that BM hunter doenst care alot about
(i almost never see a bm hunter using steadyshot now days) your spamable hability that uses focus is really bad, i bet your best hability that doenst have cd and cost focus is tranq shot right?

6 gcds to spend all focus. 6x9 (focus regen x seconds) = 54
if your pet hit once per second with 15% chance to regen 20 focus for 9 seconds you have 76,84% chance to ge it

54+20 = 74 it give you more 3 dispels that spend more 4,5 seconds that generates more 27 focus and have more chance to proc more focus from your pet.

you can spam that shit at least 10 times in row, and your pet still do decent damage, and the other classes do 0 damage (not counting autoattacks from hunter or enhance for example)

enhance is op as fuck too, and is getting nerf (by the same fact that is the best global you can use when your damage habilitys are on cd, same has hunters)
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#35 Nitric

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 05:51 PM

Your math is atrocious.

Quote

hunter's are pure physical dps class, that has ranged damage/dispels, it use focus as a resource that BM hunter doenst care alot about

For a pure physical DPS class, we sure do a lot of magic damage. Arcane Shot being a huge chunk of our damage (around 20%+ for me most games).

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(i almost never see a bm hunter using steadyshot now days) your spamable hability that uses focus is really bad, i bet your best hability that doenst have cd and cost focus is tranq shot right?

Because BM uses Cobra Shot, which is also magic damage. Comparing Tranq Shot to other spammable abilities is comparing apples to oranges. It depends on what you want to use. Our best spammable damage ability is Arcane Shot.

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6 gcds to spend all focus. 6x9 (focus regen x seconds) = 54

What is this? Hunter GCD is 1 second, iirc, as of Cataclysm. So under perfect conditions, that's 120 focus in 6 seconds. Regenerating 5.21 focus per second (according to my tab). It takes ~4 seconds just from that just to gain enough focus for 1 additional dispel.

Invigoration procs from pet's basic attacks, not auto attacks. The Shale Spider's basic attacks consists of Bite, which has a 3 second cooldown. Under optimal usage (it going off every 3 seconds as soon as it comes off cooldown), and assuming average proc rate, it'll generate 1 focus per second (.15/3*20 = 1). Add that into the above 5.21, you'll get 6.21, which is one Tranq Shot every 3.22 seconds.

Quote

you can spam that shit at least 10 times in row, and your pet still do decent damage, and the other classes do 0 damage (not counting autoattacks from hunter or enhance for example)

I guess if you have Rapid Fire up or Bestial Wrath and you're wasting your damage cooldowns for dispelling (granted there are times when you have to, e.g; Hand of Protection, etc.)

Quote

enhance is op as fuck too, and is getting nerf (by the same fact that is the best global you can use when your damage habilitys are on cd, same has hunters)

There's a big difference between Enhance and Hunter abilities. Shaman don't have a spammable damage ability like hunters. Hunter's can't just spam Tranq Shot and then do damage when our other abilities are off cooldown. Arcane Shot doesn't have a cooldown, so we either use that for damage, or we Tranq Shot.

Edited by Nitric, 18 February 2013 - 06:36 PM.


#36 Jayxx

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 05:52 PM

View Postdionim, on 18 February 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

mage spell steal are very good, but now they can use it 4 times before going oom and then they need to wait at least 8 seconds to use another one

hunter's are pure physical dps class, that has ranged damage/dispels, it use focus as a resource that BM hunter doenst care alot about
(i almost never see a bm hunter using steadyshot now days) your spamable hability that uses focus is really bad, i bet your best hability that doenst have cd and cost focus is tranq shot right?

6 gcds to spend all focus. 6x9 (focus regen x seconds) = 54
if your pet hit once per second with 15% chance to regen 20 focus for 9 seconds you have 76,84% chance to ge it

54+20 = 74 it give you more 3 dispels that spend more 4,5 seconds that generates more 27 focus and have more chance to proc more focus from your pet.

you can spam that shit at least 10 times in row, and your pet still do decent damage, and the other classes do 0 damage (not counting autoattacks from hunter or enhance for example)

enhance is op as fuck too, and is getting nerf (by the same fact that is the best global you can use when your damage habilitys are on cd, same has hunters)


http://www.wowhead.com/spell=77767, ty come again

#37 dionim

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 06:07 PM

by steadyshot i meant steady/cobra, and yes i barely see any of those being cast.

#38 Nitric

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 06:13 PM

You can thank Thrill of the Hunt for that.

#39 Numbtoes

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 06:21 PM

View PostNitric, on 18 February 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Your math is atrocious.



Spellsteal is 21% of base mana, which is approximately 22000. With a 300,000 mana pool, they can do it 13+ times before going OOM, assuming that's all they're doing, and that's not counting passive regen/evocation/mana gem, etc.
Base mana is 300,000 for mages. So each spell steal costs ~60k mana.

#40 Omglockzorx

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 06:32 PM

How can you possibly want a nerf to the hunter class? the only problem with KFC is the warrior doing a sickining amount of dmg. And please stop crying about Traps, it really isn't op at all ....




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