53 replies to this topic

[WildeHilde]

bayre, on 16 January 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

I don't see why there is a double standard, 25 man raids are not compensated for being much harder to organise than 10 man raids so why should RBGs be compensated...

Actually 25 man give more loot per person and the people on Elitist Jerks have been bitching about that since Cataclysm came out. I don't PvE except some LFR to keep up with the legendary quest. But that is the design approach. And as far as I remember there was a recent tweet or blue post stating that they want to increase the rewards for 25 men or 10 men more.

I would prefer arena giving the same cap, too and we don't know what the gear change with 5.2 will bring. As soon as we know we can start protesting or cheering.

[Phillol]

should just go back to doing 3 arena or RBG game a week to get cap

[Bigmoran]

DAMN Blazin, Nadagast owned you.

[McMick1137]

Nisslol, on 16 January 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

People like you is exactly why we can't have nice things, always satisfied with whatever those shitfaced retards at Blizzard throw at you and always trying to look for this little drop of water in the ocean of turd. Dude seriously, imagine they go to work 8 hours a day 5 days a week for months and months and they can't even fix shit like hunter trap resist bug that was in the game for over 5 fucking years. Seriously, what the fuck are they doing in Bilzzard HQ? Playing cards all day? Playing "let's go troll pvp community exdee xD"? I swear I would (and 90% of AJ posters) do a better job balancing and fixing bugs in a fucking DAY than they do over a year. Stop feeding their bullshit so maybe there's a smallest chance they'll actually start doing something, anything.

Dayum you should read post again before rage-quoting, he didnt say he was satisfied with the RBG:Arena balance but that you should try to see it from Blizzard's perspective.
In case you're too blindfolded/narrowminded to see it from a business-minded perspective heres the simple facts:
- RBGs are easier than arenas and thus attract a much broader audience, they choose to satisfy the mass rather than the small group of hispters waving their arena flag (dont misunderstand me, i can't stand RBGs, fuck anything but arena.)
- Most of the people who care so much about a high weekly cap will do RBGs to get it even if Arena is their preferred zone. In addition us, the arena junkies, would probably find something else to moan about when the Arena:RBG points are balanced out.

So why should Blizzard make it a top priority to balance out Arenas when they could instead satisfy the mass (PvE'rs and RBG'rs), if it's only gonna cost them more and gain nothing but more babies crying on every occasion they can?

[Raak]

Bigmoran, on 16 January 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

DAMN Blazin, Nadagast owned you.

He did it himself.

[Moshe]

bayre, on 16 January 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

I don't see why there is a double standard, 25 man raids are not compensated for being much harder to organise than 10 man raids so why should RBGs be compensated...

25mans drop more loot

[Affect]

methodman2, on 16 January 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

u mad?

Hope you didn't lose any sleep over that legitimate comeback.

I agree there is a huge issue with the points gap. However, you do have to take into consideration the success rate of casuals or players who don't have a way into the arena "clique". A non established player, regardless of his skill will never achieve a respectable arena rating in most cases. Yes there are some exceptions but they are few and far between. In RBGs (from what I have seen) it gives those players a sense of mutual standing ground with higher tier arena players. Not to mention RBGs offer a diverse group of players to play together..casuals, pve'ers, and pvp'ers alike. I know I am just coming across as a RBG hero but in all honesty I have done 2 total. I've done way too many bgs in the past to even remotely enjoy them.

With all that being said, I can agree to disagree with the point cap differences. I believe rating should be an all things equal kind of thing. Just because 2s is easier to put together than a 3s, 5s, or RBG group doesn't warrant a difference in point difference. All of the above can be very easily put together and played on a simple level, and can be very difficult on a serious/competitive level.

In the end however, Blizzard does have all the logistics for their reasoning behind it. It's really not simple at all when you are dealing with millions of people. Ultimately everyone has an opinion and you go for pleasing the majority, while attempting to compensate the displeased.

[Geru]

They also, which is much more annoying than arena giving a lower cap, should fix the bug that forces you to fill your arenacap entirely before doing the last 2 rbg games. It has not been that way in Cata and its fucking stupid considering the only time ppl are up for rbgs is mostly first 2 days after update.

[Thugjitsu]

Nadagast, on 16 January 2013 - 02:56 AM, said:

If you actually believe he's a dumb fuck, I don't know what to say.  I wish people would stop jumping for the easy answers when the correct answer is more nuanced and harder to grasp.

I wish I could get the same cap from 3s as RBGs, but I understand that my player-type (hardcore arena) is not the main audience for the game.

Try to understand their decisions instead of simply writing them off as 'dumb fucks'.  It might get you further.

How taste Ghostcrawler peepee?

[zaeya]

Moshe, on 16 January 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

25mans drop more loot

That's because there are more people. It's not really more rewarding. It's not 1 person getting more gear because they are in a larger raid.

[Hyrmine]

One of you guys should start a gay relationship with GC and through that affect his decisions regarding WoW.
Did none of you think of that?

[Nadagast]

Nisslol, on 16 January 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

People like you is exactly why we can't have nice things, always satisfied with whatever those shitfaced retards at Blizzard throw at you and always trying to look for this little drop of water in the ocean of turd. Dude seriously, imagine they go to work 8 hours a day 5 days a week for months and months and they can't even fix shit like hunter trap resist bug that was in the game for over 5 fucking years. Seriously, what the fuck are they doing in Bilzzard HQ? Playing cards all day? Playing "let's go troll pvp community exdee xD"? I swear I would (and 90% of AJ posters) do a better job balancing and fixing bugs in a fucking DAY than they do over a year. Stop feeding their bullshit so maybe there's a smallest chance they'll actually start doing something, anything.

It has absolutely nothing to do with being satisfied with what Blizzard gives me.  It has everything to do with perceiving reality as it is, instead of living in a childish fantasyland where the developers are stupid meanyheads who don't ever give you what you want.  It's about having a conversation as an adult.

When you say things like:
"imagine they go to work 8 hours a day 5 days a week for months and months and they can't even fix shit like hunter trap resist bug that was in the game for over 5 fucking years. Seriously, what the fuck are they doing in Bilzzard HQ? Playing cards all day?"
"dumb fucks"
etc...

You're avoiding the actual problem.  The problem with WoW PvP development is not that the developers are fucking idiots or lazy or incompetent.  The problem is that:

1. We are a small segment of the game.  Say that PvE/Raids/etc is roughly 20 times larger than arena.  What do you think that means for Blizzard when they are prioritizing fixes or new features?  Does a PvP issue of equal importance deserve to be fixed as fast as a PvE issue?  I think that Blizzard made some mistakes with the way they handled WoW as an esport/competitive game.  And god do I wish they would fix bugs quicker sometimes.  But the fact that I disagree with some of the decisions they made doesn't make them idiots or incompetent.

2. Developing games (or anything, really) of WoW's size is a fucking hard job.  I suspect you've never designed or created any large program in your life.  It's not easy--there are thousands (millions) of players complaining that they want this feature or that feature, that they need this thing fixed, or that this other thing should be entirely redesigned.  Your PvP feedback is part of a sea of (often bad) feedback that they have to wade through.  It's easy to sit there and say you could do a better job, but talk is cheap.  Maybe you would do a better job at balancing PvP, but possibly without considering the effects on one of the many other aspects of WoW.  There's absolutely room for Blizzard to improve in how they collect PvP feedback, (like, for example, if Blizzard had a team of high level PvPers which they could ask for feedback about changes) but only by suggesting/implementing actual changes will that happen--not by calling them names.

There are other issues too, like large bureaucracies being hard to control and slow moving (and I think the WoW team has certainly gotten larger over the years).  But mainly I think it comes down to these two things.  If you have a civil conversation about the problems and what could be done to solve them, I think you're more likely to get something accomplished than if you just call them idiots and write them off.

Edited by Nadagast, 16 January 2013 - 10:29 PM.

[Chzbrgr]

Nadagast, on 16 January 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

It has absolutely nothing to do with being satisfied with what Blizzard gives me.  It has everything to do with perceiving reality as it is, instead of living in a childish fantasyland where the developers are stupid meanyheads who don't ever give you what you want.  It's about having a conversation as an adult.

When you say things like:
"imagine they go to work 8 hours a day 5 days a week for months and months and they can't even fix shit like hunter trap resist bug that was in the game for over 5 fucking years. Seriously, what the fuck are they doing in Bilzzard HQ? Playing cards all day?"
"dumb fucks"
etc...

You're avoiding the actual problem.  The problem with WoW PvP development is not that the developers are fucking idiots or lazy or incompetent.  The problem is that:

1. We are a small segment of the game.  Say that PvE/Raids/etc is roughly 20 times larger than arena.  What do you think that means for Blizzard when they are prioritizing fixes or new features?  Does a PvP issue of equal importance deserve to be fixed as fast as a PvE issue?  I think that Blizzard made some mistakes with the way they handled WoW as an esport/competitive game.  And god do I wish they would fix bugs quicker sometimes.  But the fact that I disagree with some of the decisions they made doesn't make them idiots or incompetent.

2. Developing games (or anything, really) of WoW's size is a fucking hard job.  I suspect you've never designed or created any large program in your life.  It's not easy--there are thousands (millions) of players complaining that they want this feature or that feature, that they need this thing fixed, or that this other thing should be entirely redesigned.  Your PvP feedback is part of a sea of (often bad) feedback that they have to wade through.  It's easy to sit there and say you could do a better job, but talk is cheap.  Maybe you would do a better job at balancing PvP, but possibly without considering the effects on one of the many other aspects of WoW.  There's absolutely room for Blizzard to improve in how they collect PvP feedback, (like, for example, if Blizzard had a team of high level PvPers which they could ask for feedback about changes) but only by suggesting/implementing actual changes will that happen--not by calling them names.

There are other issues too, like large bureaucracies being hard to control and slow moving.  But mainly I think it comes down to these two things.  If you have a civil conversation about the problems and what could be done to solve them, I think you're more likely to get something accomplished than if you just call them idiots and write them off.

Truth

[Saru93]

Nadagast, on 16 January 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

It has absolutely nothing to do with being satisfied with what Blizzard gives me.  It has everything to do with perceiving reality as it is, instead of living in a childish fantasyland where the developers are stupid meanyheads who don't ever give you what you want.  It's about having a conversation as an adult.

When you say things like:
"imagine they go to work 8 hours a day 5 days a week for months and months and they can't even fix shit like hunter trap resist bug that was in the game for over 5 fucking years. Seriously, what the fuck are they doing in Bilzzard HQ? Playing cards all day?"
"dumb fucks"
etc...

You're avoiding the actual problem.  The problem with WoW PvP development is not that the developers are fucking idiots or lazy or incompetent.  The problem is that:

1. We are a small segment of the game.  Say that PvE/Raids/etc is roughly 20 times larger than arena.  What do you think that means for Blizzard when they are prioritizing fixes or new features?  Does a PvP issue of equal importance deserve to be fixed as fast as a PvE issue?  I think that Blizzard made some mistakes with the way they handled WoW as an esport/competitive game.  And god do I wish they would fix bugs quicker sometimes.  But the fact that I disagree with some of the decisions they made doesn't make them idiots or incompetent.

2. Developing games (or anything, really) of WoW's size is a fucking hard job.  I suspect you've never designed or created any large program in your life.  It's not easy--there are thousands (millions) of players complaining that they want this feature or that feature, that they need this thing fixed, or that this other thing should be entirely redesigned.  Your PvP feedback is part of a sea of (often bad) feedback that they have to wade through.  It's easy to sit there and say you could do a better job, but talk is cheap.  Maybe you would do a better job at balancing PvP, but possibly without considering the effects on one of the many other aspects of WoW.  There's absolutely room for Blizzard to improve in how they collect PvP feedback, (like, for example, if Blizzard had a team of high level PvPers which they could ask for feedback about changes) but only by suggesting/implementing actual changes will that happen--not by calling them names.

There are other issues too, like large bureaucracies being hard to control and slow moving.  But mainly I think it comes down to these two things.  If you have a civil conversation about the problems and what could be done to solve them, I think you're more likely to get something accomplished than if you just call them idiots and write them off.

so you are telling me they cant handle the game after 8 motherfucking years of WoW? come on man get real. I dunno how much u got paid to say that shit lol

[Nadagast]

Saru93, on 16 January 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

so you are telling me they cant handle the game after 8 motherfucking years of WoW? come on man get real. I dunno how much u got paid to say that shit lol

I'm not getting paid anything (obviously).  I don't know what you mean "can't handle the game after 8 years".  You're really going to reduce all I said to them 'not being able to handle the game'?

[Hazzah]

Nadagast, on 16 January 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

1. We are a small segment of the game.  Say that PvE/Raids/etc is roughly 20 times larger than arena.  What do you think that means for Blizzard when they are prioritizing fixes or new features?  Does a PvP issue of equal importance deserve to be fixed as fast as a PvE issue?  I think that Blizzard made some mistakes with the way they handled WoW as an esport/competitive game.  And god do I wish they would fix bugs quicker sometimes.  But the fact that I disagree with some of the decisions they made doesn't make them idiots or incompetent.

2. Developing games (or anything, really) of WoW's size is a fucking hard job.  I suspect you've never designed or created any large program in your life.  It's not easy--there are thousands (millions) of players complaining that they want this feature or that feature, that they need this thing fixed, or that this other thing should be entirely redesigned.  Your PvP feedback is part of a sea of (often bad) feedback that they have to wade through.  It's easy to sit there and say you could do a better job, but talk is cheap.  Maybe you would do a better job at balancing PvP, but possibly without considering the effects on one of the many other aspects of WoW.  There's absolutely room for Blizzard to improve in how they collect PvP feedback, (like, for example, if Blizzard had a team of high level PvPers which they could ask for feedback about changes) but only by suggesting/implementing actual changes will that happen--not by calling them names.

Even if the PvP'ers are outnumbered by the PvE'ers or whatever else people are doing in this game, does it mean they have to neglect us completely like they have been doing the past 12 seasons? Every season there's at least one major issue that they don't even touch upon, and despite thousands of threads on it, there are no blue posts telling us that they're even working on it. If they have so few employees to work on balancing that they need to favor one over the other, they should hire a team with a PvP specialty that can sort it out for them - without affecting PvE balance in the process.

Sure, designing a game isn't easy, and I don't know the first shit about it, but the developers are allegedly some of the best ones in the world, so they should be able to implement some of the better ideas provided by the PvP community. Seperating PvE and PvP is NOT a difficult task. They made a total season earned-requirement on the PvP weapons because of PvE advantage? Well fuck, what about making PvP power reduce your damage output in PvE? SURELY this isn't the hardest thing for these guys to implement. I could give you a thousand different examples of how they can seperate PvP and PvE balance, but I'm pretty sure you can work out a few examples on your own.

[ßøtléxqt]

dota 2 -> LOL -> SWTOR -> MOP

deal with it

[Nadagast]

Hazzah, on 16 January 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

Even if the PvP'ers are outnumbered by the PvE'ers or whatever else people are doing in this game, does it mean they have to neglect us completely like they have been doing the past 12 seasons? Every season there's at least one major issue that they don't even touch upon, and despite thousands of threads on it, there are no blue posts telling us that they're even working on it. If they have so few employees to work on balancing that they need to favor one over the other, they should hire a team with a PvP specialty that can sort it out for them - without affecting PvE balance in the process.

I don't think you're characterizing the situation fairly when you say they 'neglect us completely'.  They do lots of things for us.  Yes, sometimes things that are very broken stay in for a long time.  No, I am not happy about that.  I agree they should have a PvP specialty team.  Criticize them for that and you'll have my support, don't call them idiots.

Quote

Sure, designing a game isn't easy, and I don't know the first shit about it, but the developers are allegedly some of the best ones in the world, so they should be able to implement some of the better ideas provided by the PvP community. Seperating PvE and PvP is NOT a difficult task. They made a total season earned-requirement on the PvP weapons because of PvE advantage? Well fuck, what about making PvP power reduce your damage output in PvE? SURELY this isn't the hardest thing for these guys to implement. I could give you a thousand different examples of how they can seperate PvP and PvE balance, but I'm pretty sure you can work out a few examples on your own.

I think they do implement some of the better ideas provided by the PvP community.  Albeit at a slow pace, because we are a small part of the game (obviously I wish they were faster).  Some ideas they may not implement because they simply disagree that they are good ideas.  Their reasoning for not wanting to separate PvP from PvE, for example, is that they don't want to add the additional complexity for players to sort through (and additional complexity in development?  Not sure on that).  While I disagree with their conclusion, I can certainly respect it--it doesn't make them idiots.  It means we disagree.

Edited by Nadagast, 16 January 2013 - 10:37 PM.

[Saru93]

Nadagast, on 16 January 2013 - 10:27 PM, said:

I'm not getting paid anything (obviously).  I don't know what you mean "can't handle the game after 8 years".  You're really going to reduce all I said to them 'not being able to handle the game'?

Ok, I misread some of your points I'm sorry its late for me and my english is awful but still I am 100% sure that it won't change anything even if the whole community had a civil conversation with them. It's just sad and also frustrating to see that they can't come up with any good ideas to balance PvP without it affecting PvE too much.

Edited by Saru93, 16 January 2013 - 10:38 PM.

[Keiret]

The "game development is so ez lol ol ol" argument always pops up and ruins a thread like this. I think we can all agree the RBG cap is too high(or arena too low). The reason its too high(cheating) is the real problem here, and we won't see blizzard adjusting the numbers to counterbalance this. Changing the formula(s) isn't technically difficult, nor would it affect their larger player groups.