120 replies to this topic

[Domesauce]

No matter how much you may want instant CC removed, you HAVE to be able to blanket CS to protect your CC to stop cleave rushdowns. It's just not a viable change, period. Sorry.


It's so strange.... they buff Counterspell by lowering its CD, and then when they want to nerf it, they remove the blanket? They remove healing tools that could be used while blanketed, and then decide that it makes blankets too strong? They destroy caster silences, but Hunters only get a 4 second CD increase? (which is what they should have done to CS). So KFC's instant CC is pretty much untouched, and casters' ability to live through it is nerfed? i no unnerstand

Edited by Domesauce, 04 January 2013 - 06:37 PM.

[Dizzeeyo]

Nightmonkey, on 04 January 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

One of my characters is a warlock, and if I have to get a nerf to see mages also get the nerf stick - I say bring it on.

so if they are removing warlocks from arena apart from in very specific comps its fine as long as they also remove mages? awesome logic

as ive already said, the people like the warlock above cheering over the "removal" of wizard cleave after its "7 seasons of total dominance" are in for a delightful treat next patch when they have their first game against the new most dominant ele sp healer wizardcleave, with its far superior burst and instant cc to all the mages and warlocks you have been bitching about so much this season. thats after the first 100 games vs double melee healer and hunter melee healer of course, but like you said, wizardcleave is faceroll and those comps do not tunnel vision damage at all, so its all good

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 04 January 2013 - 05:44 PM.

[Nightmonkey]

Dizzeeyo, on 04 January 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

so if they are removing warlocks from arena apart from in very specific comps its fine as long as they also remove mages? awesome logic

as ive already said, the people like the warlock above cheering over the "removal" of wizard cleave after its "7 seasons of total dominance" are in for a delightful treat next patch when they have their first game against the new most dominant ele sp healer wizardcleave, with its far superior burst and instant cc to all the mages and warlocks you have been bitching about so much this season. thats after the first 100 games vs double melee healer and hunter melee healer of course, but like you said, wizardcleave is faceroll and those comps do not tunnel vision damage at all, so its all good

I never said wizard cleave is faceroll, and I never said mages/locks have been dominant for 7 seasons.  Mages and locks have been top classes for 11 seasons.  Warlocks have already been removed from arena apart from very specific comps.  Mages are still all over the place because they're still one of the best classes.  They need to be brought in line with everyone else.  Of course you don't want that, you play a Mage.

Even with this change Mages will still be very strong because they have some of the strongest control and damage in the game.  Since blanket CS was introduced, Mages have gained at least one other tool to keep someone from casting - deep freeze.  They do not need to be able to deep into a blanket silence.  That is too much control for one class to have.  If you need to protect your frost bomb or your poly, you can still do that with deep freeze.

You guys are crying hard that you lost a blanket silence when you still have a toolbox full of some of the strongest shit in the game, it just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not saying any class should be worthless, that wouldn't be fun for anyone - but mages are still very, very strong and should be brought down a couple notches still.  Of course there are other classes that need nerfs, but this topic is about Mages.

[Hektiik]

Blizzard devs are skunks in a rabbit hole.

Remove melee cooldown stacking and make paralytic DR.
Tone holygay cc down, longer cd on repent, maybe 50% more casting time.
Hunters dont need a scatter, a silence, a knockback, a freedom, a root, a pet stun, a trap and a readiness let's do it again.  
Change caster CS to 30 seconds, leave blanket.
Halve shockwave damage, increase CD to 30 seconds.
Remove blanket CS from monk and increase their sap cooldown to 1 minute.
Remove blood fear and totemic restoration and increase shock range by 10.

[Dizzeeyo]

Nightmonkey, on 04 January 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Even with this change Mages will still be very strong because they have some of the strongest control and damage in the game.  Since blanket CS was introduced

it was never "introduced" its been a talent since level 60

Nightmonkey, on 04 January 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

If you need to protect your frost bomb or your poly, you can still do that with deep freeze.

ok so we can do one poly every 30 seconds, and we give up our ability to get any sort of pressure on healers to do it, seems fair cant see why we are all complaining now

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 04 January 2013 - 06:55 PM.

[Nightmonkey]

Hektiik, on 04 January 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

Blizzard devs are skunks in a rabbit hole.

Remove melee cooldown stacking and make paralytic DR.
Tone holygay cc down, longer cd on repent, maybe 50% more casting time.
Hunters dont need a scatter, a silence, a knockback, a freedom, a root, a pet stun, a trap and a readiness let's do it again.  
Change caster CS to 30 seconds, leave blanket.
Halve shockwave damage, increase CD to 30 seconds.
Remove blanket CS from monk and increase their sap cooldown to 1 minute.
Remove blood fear and totemic restoration and increase shock range by 10.

Seriously? 2.25 second cast repentance?
You could put a 5 minute cooldown on Mage blanket CS and they could still force every cooldown a healer has with deep/blanket cs.

Shockwave cd at 40 seconds will definitely help, but it shouldn't do almost as much damage as Dragon Roar.  I think the other Warrior talents need to be brought up to par so that every single Warrior isn't going for Shockwave.  It may just be too good of a spell for Arms to have.

Monk representation is so low, and there are so many issues with the class, I can't even fathom why you would already want nerfs on them.  Did you get farmed by a Monk team on your way to grinding your posting rights for this season?  Grats on that by the way.

Blood fear is basically already removed on the PTR atm, the new talent is worthless just like most Warlock talents.

Shock range is such a random thing to ask for, work on your positioning.  Totemic restoration should probably not have Tremor included in it.  It's a strong enough talent with Grounding included already.

[Nightmonkey]

Dizzeeyo, on 04 January 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

it was never "introduced" its been a talent since level 60

ok so we can do one poly every 30 seconds, and we give up our ability to get any sort of pressure on healers to do it, seems fair cant see why we are all complaining now

After everything I posted that's all you have to say?

Seriously one poly every 30 seconds?  I didn't realize there was a 30 second cooldown on it.  You could poly a DPS and deep the healer to switch on them, same as you probably do right now.  The only difference is you can't save your blanket to use on the healer after the deep - and that is perfectly fine IMO.  And giving up any pressure you can create on healers?  How can you say this with a straight face? Your definition of "any pressure" must be "killing anything in a deep/blanket cs combo."

Defensive dispels have an 8 second cooldown now so worst case scenario you can get a half DR sheep without even CC'ing the healer at all.  If he dispels the sheep then you just got a free pass to frost bomb.

Blanket CS from Mages is just way too much to have on top of all of that.  The game has changed, and Mage blanket CS has no place in it anymore.

[Crawthz]

Nightmonkey, on 04 January 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

After everything I posted that's all you have to say?

Seriously one poly every 30 seconds?  I didn't realize there was a 30 second cooldown on it.  You could poly a DPS and deep the healer to switch on them, same as you probably do right now.  The only difference is you can't save your blanket to use on the healer after the deep - and that is perfectly fine IMO.  And giving up any pressure you can create on healers?  How can you say this with a straight face? Your definition of "any pressure" must be "killing anything in a deep/blanket cs combo."

Defensive dispels have an 8 second cooldown now so worst case scenario you can get a half DR sheep without even CC'ing the healer at all.  If he dispels the sheep then you just got a free pass to frost bomb.

Blanket CS from Mages is just way too much to have on top of all of that.  The game has changed, and Mage blanket CS has no place in it anymore.

Man, you make casting polymorph sound so easy.

Edited by Crawthz, 04 January 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[Nightmonkey]

Crawthz, on 04 January 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

Man, you make casting polymorph sound so easy.

Isn't this thread supposed to be about how casters and healers should have to do more....casting?

And now you're bitching about having to cast?  You guys are just ridiculous.

[Hektiik]

Nightmonkey, on 04 January 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

Seriously? 2.25 second cast repentance?
You could put a 5 minute cooldown on Mage blanket CS and they could still force every cooldown a healer has with deep/blanket cs.

Shockwave cd at 40 seconds will definitely help, but it shouldn't do almost as much damage as Dragon Roar.  I think the other Warrior talents need to be brought up to par so that every single Warrior isn't going for Shockwave.  It may just be too good of a spell for Arms to have.

Monk representation is so low, and there are so many issues with the class, I can't even fathom why you would already want nerfs on them.  Did you get farmed by a Monk team on your way to grinding your posting rights for this season?  Grats on that by the way.

Blood fear is basically already removed on the PTR atm, the new talent is worthless just like most Warlock talents.

Shock range is such a random thing to ask for, work on your positioning.  Totemic restoration should probably not have Tremor included in it.  It's a strong enough talent with Grounding included already.

Your post was so self righteous and short sighted that it's pointless to reply to any part other than grats on your one time glad 5 years ago.  WoW doesn't matter enough to me to have any of mine on this website that I never use.

I'll try not to get farmed by monks and work on my positioning while you work on 1800.

[Crawthz]

Nightmonkey, on 04 January 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

Isn't this thread supposed to be about how casters and healers should have to do more....casting?

And now you're bitching about having to cast?  You guys are just ridiculous.

Yes, and removing blankets does not promote more casting.

You get more casting when Mr. Aragorn and Mr. Legolas does not have interrupts that can be rotated forever while dumping almost unhealable damage to you. Replace Aragorn or Legolas in your setup with Junglecat and result is the same.

Oh and you mentioned about strong cc mages have? Everything else except Deep Freeze is RELIABLE cc mages have. Others break on small damage of Nether Tempest or gets dispelled instantly and healer runs back behind his box.

[affix]

averagepriestz, on 04 January 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

I have played a healer for as long as I can remember, back when fake casting rewarded you with a few seconds of well deserved casting time to pick up your partners. In todays game, there is no more fake casting. It makes no sense. You can not tell the difference between a good or average Mage anymore. You fake their counterspell, but you are still locked out for ½ of the duration that you would have taken if you just plain tried to cast it the first time. Do you really want the game to reward such sloppy play? You can't lock him on his cast, so you just throw it anyway and get what you want with minimal effort.

Um, the 1/2 duration ratio that you just described is exactly what it was for the majority of arena seasons.  The lockout used to be 10 seconds I think?  Until 70, where it was changed to 8.  It was much later reduced to 6.  Using the logic of the ratio between the silence and the CS being the problem is interesting, but I don't think you can reduce the duration much lower than 4 seconds, and I doubt you want the interrupt lengthened.  This is why so many of us think that other forms of instant CC are really what need to be changed, i.e. PoM ring.

Top, on 04 January 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

Blizzard is trying to move away from uncounterable "CC".  This is part of how they are choosing to address it.  This isn't the first time in the game mages (a large chunk anyway) won't be running around with blanket CS...although I'm sure most people who play a mage now only know the blasphemous version of it the class has devolved to over the last 3 xpacks.  I always thought it was a pretty lame ability.

What are you referring to?  I was 17/0/34 at level 60, 17/0/44 or 17/3/41 at 70, 20/0/51 at 80, and obviously had imp CS at 85.  There's never been a time when ICS wasn't a part of the standard PvP build.

averagepriestz, on 04 January 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

I honestly do not believe healing is a problem currently compared to all the instant CC and burst. After they tone down this, I do believe their plan is to work on instant healing too.

Back to the original question proposed: no serious changes to instant healing are on the PTR, nor have any intentions to make changes to them been stated by blues.  With that in mind, what do you think the removal of blanket silences will do to the meta game at a time when cleaves are already a lot more numerous than melee/caster/healer and spell cleaves?

[affix]

Djandawg, on 04 January 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

I hate this change and hope it never goes through.  I think it will be one the changes this expansion that will make me play significantly less.
People need to understand a few things before they bring up the "fake casting was skill" argument:

-Reliable arena healer classes never cast anyway. Holy power / word of glory mechanic and unleash / short cd NS / healing totems that can be placed behind pillars etc are uninterruptable huge heals.
-They gave every healer aura mastery.

So not only they can keep people up with instant huge heals, they are immune to interrupts when they need to cast.Also it's not only heal prevention, blankets are used to prevent stuff like dispels, bop, SLT etc.
What's going to happen is,,comps with 2 melee, each having 4+ ways to stop healing, will tunnel healers freely because the other healer can't fall behind in healing and can always assist, freedom/dispels etc due to lack of blankets to stop.
.

This is a really good post, and so far not a single person has directly addressed the last paragraph.  The change will not make casters cast more, it will not make healers cast more, it will not promote fake casting at high levels, because Mages won't *BE* at high levels.  If you cannot prevent instant cast healer utility, you cannot get kills.  If you cannot protect your debuffs with Imp CS semi regularly, you cannot peel effectively against top tier cleaves.  It's a viability ender.  And all the back and forth about how the game 'should' be doesn't matter if the only thing you change is one spell from two classes that is pivotal for their viability at the moment.

The collateral damage for this change is too high - it's one of the few spells we have left that can truly differentiate good Mages from bad ones when they try to peel teammates, or predict and prevent burst.

[Talbadar]

Nightmonkey, on 04 January 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Mages and locks have been top classes for 11 seasons.  Warlocks have already been removed from arena apart from very specific comps.  Mages are still all over the place because they're still one of the best classes.  They need to be brought in line with everyone else.  

Not sure what game people have been playing when they confidently say things like this. There's a difference between being a viable class and being a top class. Warlocks, if any class, have always been viable. They have had their moments of being really strong, but it was always something different that was making them so strong. SL/SL, Chaos Bolt/Conflag, and Demo double Chaos wave were some of their stronger times. Frost Mages have been viable for most seasons. Yeah, they do high burst and have good survivability, but that doesn't mean they need to be nerfed. Frost has always been able to be dealt with. There have definitely been times where I die to one where I'm really frustrated because he Ice Lanced me for "X" number 3 times and I died, but every single class has annoying things like that (doesn't mean any of it needs to be changed). Case and point: Mages are not out of line. Improved Counterspell had to be dealt with, yes, but not with the removal of it. Reduce the duration of Imp CS to 3 seconds, and increase the cooldown of Counterspell to 24 seconds. Spell Lock was fine.

Nightmonkey, on 04 January 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Even with this change Mages will still be very strong because they have some of the strongest control and damage in the game.  Since blanket CS was introduced, Mages have gained at least one other tool to keep someone from casting - deep freeze.  They do not need to be able to deep into a blanket silence.  That is too much control for one class to have.  If you need to protect your frost bomb or your poly, you can still do that with deep freeze.

This is really ugly to even reply to. First of all, I don't agree with the first statement. There has been so many different control abilities added to MoP that Mages previous dominance in CC is being challenged. Druids, Mages, Priests, Paladins, Warriors, and Warlocks all bring plenty of control. I couldn't tell you which one is the strongest. Strongest damage? I mean, with Nether Tempest, their damage is consistently pretty high - sure, but I'm much more scared of other classes' damage.

It seems you're trying to say that deep-->blanket is unfair and shouldn't be possible. Yet again, where is the comparison to how other classes do things? How is Deep/blanket (both magical, mind you) any different from Warbringer-->Shockwave, Beam-->Vortex, Psychic Horror-->Silence, Garrote-->Kidney, Intimidation Stun-->Silencing Shot, Strangulate-->Gnaw Stun?

[khuna]

I thought noone would reply to that guy, i was just facepalming irl when i saw this

[Hektiik]

I have to jump back in to say how dumb this ulfsaar guy is, the more I read from you the more retarded you seem.

Mages haven't been top class for 11 seasons.  Mages were viable in BC because of their synergy with rogues and priests.  Having a top tier comp doesn't make them a top class.  If you played in BC you would remember drain teams, you would remember mace stun, you would remember warriors.  

In season 5 mages were viable, betrayer of humanity DKs ret teams, double bm hunter, and broken survival meant that mages weren't a top class.  In season 6 locks could 1 shot you with chaos bolt conflag, undisarmable bladestorm was introduced along with DKs who could immune themselves to all forms of cc for 6-20 seconds, not including trinket.  In season 7 and 8 haste made mages great with wizards, maybe you don't remember ret hunter shaman, atc or beastcleave hitting mages so hard that they had to play with casters.

In regards to the stupid shit you said to me;

Seriously? 2.25 second cast repentance?
Imagine if a disc priest could fear every 15 seconds and blanket cs you every 45.  Holy paladins don't need the crutch of spamming CC at their own whim, it should be a privilege.

You could put a 5 minute cooldown on Mage blanket CS and they could still force every cooldown a healer has with deep/blanket cs.
You are either trolling or really stupid.  Not sure, but if you trinket deep and run from orb the mage is like.. brb in 1 minute.

Shockwave cd at 40 seconds will definitely help, but it shouldn't do almost as much damage as Dragon Roar.  I think the other Warrior talents need to be brought up to par so that every single Warrior isn't going for Shockwave.  It may just be too good of a spell for Arms to have.
Something is too good, so you think they should buff the whole tier to make it more appealing?  40 seconds is too long, warriors will be kited for days with the mobility that exists in the game now.  I'm not complaining; still, reducing damage and increasing CD by ten would make it balanced.

Monk representation is so low, and there are so many issues with the class, I can't even fathom why you would already want nerfs on them.  Did you get farmed by a Monk team on your way to grinding your posting rights for this season?  Grats on that by the way.
Ignoring your moronic deflection, monks being flawed in design or flawed in a way that makes their viability obsolete does not mean that ignoring retarded spell design is acceptable.  They can basically full sheep you twice as often as you can be blinded or warrior feared.  The blanket silence on kick is self explanatory, especially considering they have a shockwave knockdown talent, a root and the awkward fists of fury design to work with.

Blood fear is basically already removed on the PTR atm, the new talent is worthless just like most Warlock talents
Okay?

Shock range is such a random thing to ask for, work on your positioning.  Totemic restoration should probably not have Tremor included in it.  It's a strong enough talent with Grounding included already.
This more than anything shows how incapable you are of critical thinking.  Shocking has become so much less important in this meta, why?  You are either being tunneled in stuns/silences/disables and unable to shock.  Or max ranging to avoid being tunneled.  This means you basically shock cyclones or poly's that are being cast on you, or you shock the healer who isn't casting because he is disable when your team pushes in to tunnel him.  
Asking for shock range correlates to the fact that restoration should be replaced or changed because a 30 second tremor totem is ridiculous.  Furthermore, it's not a strong enough talent with grounding included.  Grounding spells requires a teammate to be within, I believe it's 15 yards of the totem now.  Is it "OP" grounding spells on you every 12 seconds whilst you're being tunneled?  Well, considering you spent 12+ seconds in CC before you can use it, I beg to differ.


Why the fuck are you even replying to people when clearly you are stubborn, uninformed and the furthest from objective on this thread?

Edited by Hektiik, 04 January 2013 - 08:21 PM.

[wtfbro]

khuna, on 04 January 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

I thought noone would reply to that guy, i was just facepalming irl when i saw this

i think a gif of you facepalming would be pretty awesome

[khuna]

wtfbro, on 04 January 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

i think a gif of you facepalming would be pretty awesome

Edited by khuna, 04 January 2013 - 08:30 PM.

[ROKMODE]

They really just need to take a good look at the casting system. I agree with your points. Casting hasn't been nearly as effective since cataclysm, and it's a big reason why elemental was one of (if not) the worst caster throughout the expansion. Besides ele mastery and fulmination, they had to cast everything, which didn't work out too well. Instant cast heaven is ridiculously scrubby, and it promotes mindless play in the middle of the map, and it's another reason why a lot of the skill centered around positioning diminished in cataclysm.

[Hektiik]

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