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Healers in the absence of silences (5.2)


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#1 affix

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:41 AM

It seems like healing classes very rarely need to cast nowadays, without some form of interrupt protection up that makes it safe to do so.  Most kills are about preventing healing entirely, through CC, stuns and silences.  This has always been true, of course - but classes have always had the tools to do so effectively.  It feels more binary now than ever, with how massive instant cast heals (and damage!) can be.

In 5.2, they're removing Spell Lock and Counterspell silence.  This comes after a lot of scaling back of snare frequency, potency, and duration, and a mass cut of a lot of root sources and DR categories.  I'm not exactly expecting sympathy from people regarding this change - I'm just curious how you think the arena meta game will play out in the absence of these effects.

I feel like multiple times per game, in EVERY game, I rely on a silence to protect debuffs, follow up trinkets, bridge DR gaps, or prevent CC outs.  It's such a normal part of my gameplay it feels essential to playing the class.  I identify with it as much as I do Blink or Ice Block.  It's a versatile tool that can be used offensively and defensively, and I just don't really see how the game will play out without it, or what will prevent melee and healers from just trading cooldowns one for one when training a target, to get out of dispellable CC, or to spam instant heals to top people off.

Everyone keeps talking about how there's too much instant cast CC - from blood fear to PoM ring to Symbiosis to Pally blind to Shockwave... and it seems like Blizzard is focusing in on silences as the major culprit.  I fear that they see the removal of silences as a buff to caster effectiveness, when in fact it'll result in nothing but a significant nerf to our ability to protect magical debuffs and prevent instant heals.

#2 Claynz

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:14 AM

There is almost no fake casting anymore, fake casting in my opinion is a small skill factor were you play mind games with the opponent. Fake casting separated bad/good healers/caster dps but nowdays everything is instant on both healer and dps side.

Almost every class have also been simplified a good example there is warrior, before you had to "Stance Dance" now they just sit one stance with 25% dmg reduction hitting abilities in right rotation with insane mobility & dmg.
It's this kinda stuff i miss  separate good from bad players. Bladey r1 war on cyclone atm told me he considered quitting because the game is too easy.

They should make every class very hard to master so it gives players space to improve on, i think blizzard did a lot of fine changes for pvp in MoP but there is still a lot to improve on.


And fucking change the Honor system... need to grind like 40k honor to get full honor gear on alts + upgrades, no wonder why people bot i don't blame them. Bring back old AV were you summon Ice Lord & Forest Lord etc those fun BGs were you get honor for killing and if you kill a high ranked player you get even more honor.

#3 Chanimal

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:21 AM

agreed, all the instant cc's and spells mop added are the problem not blanket silences, but then this is Blizzard.
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#4 Korzul

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:27 AM

They need to reduce the amount of instant casted heals or kill their effectiveness. Not that it matters right now because we're all about to get shafted by rogue stunlocks into garrote into paralytic poison stun then add in a ring of peace etc.

They destroyed caster lockdown somewhat, ignored the elephant in the room and decided to buy him a friend.

#5 Braindance

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:04 AM

Fakecasting was skill
1=spell

1 - 0.2 sec- adadada-1-0.1 sec-adadadadada-1-0.5 sec-adadadadadada-1-0.3 sec-kick misses-1

fuck ye it's hard

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#6 Athená

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:20 AM

Either make it interrupt or make it blanket, both is and always has been over the top imo. It's even in the name counter'spell' not counter all spells just because it's convenient for you.
As for covering debuffs, land a cs and then cast the cc. That'll protect the debuff longer than a blanket will.
Faking isnt needed no, cause 99% of the mongs out there don't use it to actually hit an interrupt anyway, deep into blanket is just to powerful as is.

I welcome this nerf with open arms as a holy pala.
I do not suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

#7 averagepriestz

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:24 AM

Blanket silences were not helping in any way. I am sorry, but I can understand where you are coming from, but please do understand that you have been used to having it, instead of recieving it. I have played a healer for as long as I can remember, back when fake casting rewarded you with a few seconds of well deserved casting time to pick up your partners. In todays game, there is no more fake casting. It makes no sense. You can not tell the difference between a good or average Mage anymore. You fake their counterspell, but you are still locked out for ½ of the duration that you would have taken if you just plain tried to cast it the first time. Do you really want the game to reward such sloppy play? You can't lock him on his cast, so you just throw it anyway and get what you want with minimal effort.

The same goes for Blood Fear and all the other instant CC's that litterally spells out "Make a mistake, nobody minds". Take a game I had the other day. The enemy team had their DK rush in vs. us. Huge mistake from their part, he was out of sight from his healer and 2nd DPS and went to 20%, had to trinket and pop all his CDs. I rush on top of the enemy healer to cyclone him. I get instantly blood feared, which I trinket, for then to be put into a Howl of Terror. We ended up losing the game shortly after, since the Shaman popped SLT and then NS Hexed me from the fear, which meant my partner died.

It is just extremly sloppy play that blanket silences and instant fears promotes. You do not need to communicate with your partners, you do not need to set anything up, all you have to do is target your enemy and press a button. Casters were simply too good against classes that had to cast. Especially Paladins. Now Paladins are in a pretty good state (too much CC in my own opinion, I prefer the defensive role we used to have). Blanket silences, just like Warriors had, should go. And frankly, I am sure you thought Gag Order was retarded too, so why do you think it is any different for casters?

I honestly do not believe healing is a problem currently compared to all the instant CC and burst. After they tone down this, I do believe their plan is to work on instant healing too.

#8 Wallirik

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:28 AM

this change is fucking stupid.

i'm so going belf in 5.2, i want my blanket back.

#9 Snuggli

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:29 AM

View PostAthená, on 04 January 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

As for covering debuffs, land a cs and then cast the cc. That'll protect the debuff longer than a blanket will.
Faking isnt needed no, cause 99% of the mongs out there don't use it to actually hit an interrupt anyway, deep into blanket is just to powerful as is.

I welcome this nerf with open arms as a holy pala.
So when 2 dps go completely ham on your healer and you need to peel you wait until their healer casts so you can get undispelled CC off? gg.

Blanket interrupts are one of few CCs in this game which actually had an interesting playstyle. You can only ever do one thing with polymorph and that is polymorph people. With a blanket you can either use it as a filler in CC, use it to stop instant damage, use it to stop stuff like deathgrip or actually use it to fully lockout a healer. meh.

i think there is other stuff they could've done.

View PostBraindance, on 11 October 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

Go listen to some Bieber shit and leave me alone fucko.

#10 averagepriestz

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:35 AM

View PostSnuggli, on 04 January 2013 - 03:29 AM, said:

So when 2 dps go completely ham on your healer and you need to peel you wait until their healer casts so you can get undispelled CC off? gg.

Blanket interrupts are one of few CCs in this game which actually had an interesting playstyle. You can only ever do one thing with polymorph and that is polymorph people. With a blanket you can either use it as a filler in CC, use it to stop instant damage, use it to stop stuff like deathgrip or actually use it to fully lockout a healer. meh.

i think there is other stuff they could've done.

You must be able to think about something better you'd like to see in return.

#11 Top

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 03:52 AM

Blizzard is trying to move away from uncounterable "CC".  This is part of how they are choosing to address it.  This isn't the first time in the game mages (a large chunk anyway) won't be running around with blanket CS...although I'm sure most people who play a mage now only know the blasphemous version of it the class has devolved to over the last 3 xpacks.  I always thought it was a pretty lame ability.

Yeah you lose the "skill" part where you're preventing a dispel or some other ability from being used, but I think getting rid of the derp side of uncounterable silence on a low reuse that requires no thinking to be effective outweighs that downside.

Healers not casting much have always existed in some form or another in arena so, can't see much of how that matters in all of this as you certainly do not need a 4s silence to kill shit in arena now, especially when you run a cc heavy comp.

#12 Pritchard

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:07 AM

View Postaveragepriestz, on 04 January 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

Blanket silences were not helping in any way. I am sorry, but I can understand where you are coming from, but please do understand that you have been used to having it, instead of recieving it. I have played a healer for as long as I can remember, back when fake casting rewarded you with a few seconds of well deserved casting time to pick up your partners. In todays game, there is no more fake casting. It makes no sense. You can not tell the difference between a good or average Mage anymore. You fake their counterspell, but you are still locked out for ½ of the duration that you would have taken if you just plain tried to cast it the first time. Do you really want the game to reward such sloppy play? You can't lock him on his cast, so you just throw it anyway and get what you want with minimal effort.

The same goes for Blood Fear and all the other instant CC's that litterally spells out "Make a mistake, nobody minds". Take a game I had the other day. The enemy team had their DK rush in vs. us. Huge mistake from their part, he was out of sight from his healer and 2nd DPS and went to 20%, had to trinket and pop all his CDs. I rush on top of the enemy healer to cyclone him. I get instantly blood feared, which I trinket, for then to be put into a Howl of Terror. We ended up losing the game shortly after, since the Shaman popped SLT and then NS Hexed me from the fear, which meant my partner died.

It is just extremly sloppy play that blanket silences and instant fears promotes. You do not need to communicate with your partners, you do not need to set anything up, all you have to do is target your enemy and press a button. Casters were simply too good against classes that had to cast. Especially Paladins. Now Paladins are in a pretty good state (too much CC in my own opinion, I prefer the defensive role we used to have). Blanket silences, just like Warriors had, should go. And frankly, I am sure you thought Gag Order was retarded too, so why do you think it is any different for casters?

I honestly do not believe healing is a problem currently compared to all the instant CC and burst. After they tone down this, I do believe their plan is to work on instant healing too.


instant healing and damage is JUST as big of a problem as instant cc.  THAT is the sole reason BLANKET spell locks have gained popularity over the years is because healers and dps cast LESS.

In Wrath, I RARELY used CS as a blanket.  Because people actually had to cast, and getting that 8 second lockout could win games.

In Cata/MOP, what is the point of using CS for an interrupt?????  NO ONE CASTS(who casts now, destro locks and ele shams?  resto shams under heavy pressure?)

Instant healing and damage needs to be worked out RIGHT AWAY  but also so does something with interrupts as sicne there is 10000 interrupts in the game now, this promotes instant cast style of play.  (mage 20 second cd CS is pretty hilarious)


DR Interrupts just like every other cc, so that mindless interrupt spamming teams cannot endlessly lock down someone, and bring back casting to this shit game.



edit:  also, a major part of imp cs/sl is that damage and healing are so high, if damage and healing were low, blankets would not be as big of a problem as they are now.

if they would have kept damage like they did on beta when they overbuffed resil, while nerfing the healing, the game would have been great at launch

Edited by hairpiece, 04 January 2013 - 04:15 AM.


#13 Top

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:14 AM

View Posthairpiece, on 04 January 2013 - 04:07 AM, said:

In Wrath, I RARELY used CS as a blanket.  Because people actually had to cast, and getting that 8 second lockout could win games.

In Cata/MOP, what is the point of using CS for an interrupt?????  NO ONE CASTS(who casts now, destro locks and ele shams?  resto shams under heavy pressure?)

You are living in a false reality.  The one difference I'll give you, that you didn't even fully mention is that lockout used to be 8s so it rewarded you more for catching a school.

Hpal and rdruid definitely have to cast as much this xpack (if not more) as any other previous (except for maybe hpal in tbc which was almost all casting).  There's also no absurd haste stacking like wotlk.

Yeah cy@

#14 Korzul

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:20 AM

Quote

Blizzard is trying to move away from uncounterable "CC"

Yet they added Ring of Peace/ changed paralysis. We still have paralytic poison etc.
We're on the same carousel we've always been on and the potential lockout combos in 5.2 are now even worse than those we had in 5.1.

#15 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:23 AM

View PostKorzul, on 04 January 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

Yet they added Ring of Peace/ changed paralysis. We still have paralytic poison etc.
We're on the same carousel we've always been on and the potential lockout combos in 5.2 are now even worse than those we had in 5.1.
low rated / shit people complain about wizard cleaves and the "30 second UNINTERRUPTABLE (hah) cc chains" that mage sp restodruid can pull off

good people complain about hunter 30 second all instant cast cc chains and melee cleave/warrior damage

unfortunately obvious who blizzard listens to, trying to fix a relatively recent instant cast cc problem by removing abilities that have existed since level 60 cap and ignoring all the retarded new stuff they introduced this expansion must make sense to someone

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 04 January 2013 - 04:26 AM.

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#16 Pritchard

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:25 AM

View PostTop, on 04 January 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

You are living in a false reality.  The one difference I'll give you, that you didn't even fully mention is that lockout used to be 8s so it rewarded you more for catching a school.

Hpal and rdruid definitely have to cast as much this xpack (if not more) as any other previous (except for maybe hpal in tbc which was almost all casting).  There's also no absurd haste stacking like wotlk.

Yeah cy@


yea no, pallies cast on procs, and they cast repentence.   druids cast cyclones (their heals hardly do much anyways).

and "cy@" really?  are you 12 and is this still 2008?

#17 Top

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:29 AM

which as a comparison to previous xpacks is the same or greater.  i.e. the entire point of the post.  glad you got it

#18 Pritchard

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:32 AM

View PostTop, on 04 January 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

which as a comparison to previous xpacks is the same or greater.  i.e. the entire point of the post.  glad you got it

same for druids yes, as they have always been a hot class, paladins in tbc and wrath always casted heals...so i don't know what you are on about pallies not casting in wrath.  Maybe when lots of damage wasn't going out sure, but any pressure and it was flash and hl spam.

also, its the complete opposite for paladins now, in wrath, the instant casts were procs, now the casted heals proc off of instant casts.

Edited by hairpiece, 04 January 2013 - 04:34 AM.


#19 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:33 AM

View Postaveragepriestz, on 04 January 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

I have played a healer for as long as I can remember, back when fake casting rewarded you with a few seconds of well deserved casting time to pick up your partners. In todays game, there is no more fake casting. It makes no sense. You can not tell the difference between a good or average Mage anymore. You fake their counterspell, but you are still locked out for ½ of the duration that you would have taken if you just plain tried to cast it the first time. Do you really want the game to reward such sloppy play? You can't lock him on his cast, so you just throw it anyway and get what you want with minimal effort.

so in tbc, when mages had improved counterspell, fakecasting brought you a few seconds of casting time, but now in mop, when mages still have exactly the same improved counterspell, you cant tell the difference between good and shit mages anymore?

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#20 averagepriestz

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:38 AM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 04 January 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

so in tbc, when mages had improved counterspell, fakecasting brought you a few seconds of casting time, but now in mop, when mages still have exactly the same improved counterspell, you cant tell the difference between good and shit mages anymore?

Don't take things out of context. Back then everyone fakecasted, now, nobody does it. It was really important for casters to hit that 8 second lockout in TBC, because people did not get globalled in 2 seconds. Now, nobody gives a fuck.

You see my point?




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