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Nether Tempest breaking polys?

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#21 hertzuk

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:37 PM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 03 January 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

again with the aoe damage, again with the nothing to do with what im saying

I forget when Nether Tempest became a single target spell that did no AoE damage that just breaks poly because it can?

Edited by hertzuk, 03 January 2013 - 10:37 PM.

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#22 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:40 PM

View Posthertzuk, on 03 January 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

I forget when Nether Tempest became a single target spell that did no AoE damage that just breaks poly because it can?

for those who were not aware mages dont have a single target alternative to nether tempest and we choose to use it because that 800 damage on nearby targets is game breaking like it seems everyone thinks we do

Hakfu said:

My personal opinion about why PHD/ATC/Beastcleave are not being that succesful on Tournaments is that in many cases it relies on the enemy making an error...In a sense, that makes them the underdog...Hunter's have never really been that OP. People just have the image that hunters should be something to be stomped over

#23 Igor Čovran

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:57 PM

dot everyone then dont cc at all xD mage dmg is one of the best xD

Edited by Igor Čovran, 03 January 2013 - 10:58 PM.

n/a

#24 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:59 PM

View PostIgor Čovran, on 03 January 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

dot everyone then dont cc at all xD mage dmg is one of the best xD
or reroll spriest and do that job 100 times better, but actually get to cc as well :D

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 03 January 2013 - 10:59 PM.

Hakfu said:

My personal opinion about why PHD/ATC/Beastcleave are not being that succesful on Tournaments is that in many cases it relies on the enemy making an error...In a sense, that makes them the underdog...Hunter's have never really been that OP. People just have the image that hunters should be something to be stomped over

#25 affix

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:59 PM

View Posthertzuk, on 03 January 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

However the principle is the same, intelligently sacrifice damage for CC.
There's literally never, in any arena game, in ANY situation, where it would be intelligent not to have NT up.  That's the basis for the complaint.  Basing your argument on the abstraction that we should 'intelligently sacrifice damage for CC' in a situation that is literally never a good idea is a bad argument.

All silly cross-class arguments aside, a NT specced Mage must keep NT up, but the cleave effect on the multidot means that our CC isn't as reliable as it should be.  It's a problem that should be fixed.

Edited by affix, 04 January 2013 - 12:01 AM.


#26 hertzuk

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:44 AM

View Postaffix, on 03 January 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

There's literally never, in any arena game, in ANY situation, where it would be intelligent not to have NT up.  That's the basis for the complaint.  Basing your argument on the abstraction that we should 'intelligently sacrifice damage for CC' in a situation that is literally never a good idea is a bad argument.

All silly cross-class arguments aside, a NT specced Mage must keep NT up, but the cleave effect on the multidot means that our CC isn't as reliable as it should be.  It's a problem that should be fixed.


I also agree that on the principle that no CC in the game breaks on AoE damage any more, then yeah I guess it shouldn't either. But agreeing with the post before, none of that shit should've been introduced in the first place imo (and yes there'll be the 'warlock CC doesn't break on damage anyway blah' thing, but that was never a phenomenal balance issue before really, especially when it did break on a certain threshold of HP).

However, though it's not as viable, frost bomb exists (god forbid trying to cast in this game). Like choosing Cunning or Insignia last season. If cunning breaking CC was losing games, I'd unequip it.


So ultimately, in my opinion, yes you are sacrificing CC for damage and 'convenience' (NT damage is somewhat easier set up). But referring to my first paragraph, in principle it probably shouldn't break CC anyway, and regardless it's still a sacrifice worth making.

My first comment was thrown off-handedly, and was not intended to spark such furious debate. My apologies to the AJ community.

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#27 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:06 AM

View Posthertzuk, on 04 January 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

However, though it's not as viable, frost bomb exists (god forbid trying to cast in this game). Like choosing Cunning or Insignia last season. If cunning breaking CC was losing games, I'd unequip it.


So ultimately, in my opinion, yes you are sacrificing CC for damage and 'convenience' (NT damage is somewhat easier set up). But referring to my first paragraph, in principle it probably shouldn't break CC anyway, and regardless it's still a sacrifice worth making.

you still dont seem to understand, so ill have one final try

frost mage damage revolves around which bomb talent you pick you take, how the bomb does damage and the procs that the bomb generates. all 3 mage bombs involve an effect that deals aoe damage to all targets within 10 yards, yes even frost bomb, so whichever bomb you take, the other team has the ability to make themselves immune to mage cc in situations when the mage is setting up damage.

saying that mages should choose to not use a bomb spell in situations when they are trying to polymorph a target because they "should sacrifice damage for cc" is effectively telling a mage that he must do zero damage for the 8 seconds of the poly, in which case what the hell was the point of casting the polymorph in the first place

people are completely fixated on the aoe damage component of nether tempest being amazing and worth sacrificing the use of polymorph for when it actually hits for around 800 damage and is the most annoying and useless part of the spell in terms of pvp. comparing nether tempest or any of the other mage bombs that are required for us to do any damage at all to the aoe cleave damage of heroic cunning last season is one of the funniest things ive seen on this site for a long time

View Posthertzuk, on 04 January 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

If cunning breaking CC was losing games, I'd unequip it.
unequip the cunning and the s11 warlock still does damage. a s12 mage who doesnt use a bomb spell is left with a 1.8 second cast time frostbolt that hits a 400k hp target for 12k, in other words WE DO NO DAMAGE

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 04 January 2013 - 05:13 AM.

Hakfu said:

My personal opinion about why PHD/ATC/Beastcleave are not being that succesful on Tournaments is that in many cases it relies on the enemy making an error...In a sense, that makes them the underdog...Hunter's have never really been that OP. People just have the image that hunters should be something to be stomped over

#28 Friedkitteh

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:39 AM

People use poly? o.O

#29 Silhin

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 08:00 AM

View Postaffix, on 03 January 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

There's literally never, in any arena game, in ANY situation, where it would be intelligent not to have NT up.  That's the basis for the complaint.  Basing your argument on the abstraction that we should 'intelligently sacrifice damage for CC' in a situation that is literally never a good idea is a bad argument.

All silly cross-class arguments aside, a NT specced Mage must keep NT up, but the cleave effect on the multidot means that our CC isn't as reliable as it should be.  It's a problem that should be fixed.

View Postaffix, on 03 January 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

There's literally never, in any arena game, in ANY situation, where it would be intelligent not to have NT up.  That's the basis for the complaint.  Basing your argument on the abstraction that we should 'intelligently sacrifice damage for CC' in a situation that is literally never a good idea is a bad argument.

All silly cross-class arguments aside, a NT specced Mage must keep NT up, but the cleave effect on the multidot means that our CC isn't as reliable as it should be.  It's a problem that should be fixed.

Your not forced in to specing in to NT simple as that you have other choices

However U spec in to cuz u want to do more damage U cant have your cake and eat it too sorry NT Procs r retarded and iam not being Biased here cuz i play mage as well Nt on two targets u get Non stop Procs to spam u never cast anything

U want to have reliable CC spec Frost Bomb is not shut up

#30 Slythor

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:48 PM

View PostSilhin, on 04 January 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

Your not forced in to specing in to NT simple as that you have other choices

However U spec in to cuz u want to do more damage U cant have your cake and eat it too sorry NT Procs r retarded and iam not being Biased here cuz i play mage as well Nt on two targets u get Non stop Procs to spam u never cast anything

U want to have reliable CC spec Frost Bomb is not shut up


You don't get more procs from multidotting with NT.

Seeing as how you didn't know that, the rest of your post is just as misinformed.
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#31 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:53 PM

View PostSilhin, on 04 January 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

U want to have reliable CC spec Frost Bomb is not shut up

please learn to read

but as the person above points out, you cant even read the brainfreeze tooltip to see that only the most recently applied bomb generates procs, so im not holding my breath

View PostDizzeeyo, on 04 January 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

frost mage damage revolves around which bomb talent you pick you take, how the bomb does damage and the procs that the bomb generates. all 3 mage bombs involve an effect that deals aoe damage to all targets within 10 yards, yes even frost bomb, so whichever bomb you take, the other team has the ability to make themselves immune to mage cc in situations when the mage is setting up damage.

frostbomb was breaking just as much cc when every mage was using that, its an issue with the bomb talents being stupidly designed for pvp, not just nether tempest

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 04 January 2013 - 01:55 PM.

Hakfu said:

My personal opinion about why PHD/ATC/Beastcleave are not being that succesful on Tournaments is that in many cases it relies on the enemy making an error...In a sense, that makes them the underdog...Hunter's have never really been that OP. People just have the image that hunters should be something to be stomped over

#32 affix

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:07 PM

View PostSilhin, on 04 January 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

iam not being Biased here cuz i play mage as well Nt on two targets u get Non stop Procs to spam u never cast anything
...jesus christ

Quote

U want to have reliable CC spec Frost Bomb is not shut up
also breaks CC

#33 Pritchard

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:49 AM

View Postaffix, on 04 January 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

...jesus christ


also breaks CC

i personally wish they would just take mage bombs as talents away, i hate the new class design so much.   So poorly designed for pvp.





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