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The honor system is in need of a remake


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#1 Hazzah

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:33 AM

I'll post the same thing I posted on the EU battlegrounds-forums a moment ago, and I'm pretty sure most of you can relate. (http://eu.battle.net...ic/6201041926#1)

Farming honor can be fun the first time around, sure. You hit level 90, enter a BG and get one-shot by everyone and there's close to no chance for you to actually participate in anything that remotely resembles PvP apart from dying, at least not until you have suffered your way through this for a few days.

Now, you've FINALLY gathered your last piece of honor gear, and you're ready to rock the arena for some filthy high rating because you are confident in the fact that you have a higher in-game IQ than most people. With this thought still in your head, you find an arena partner and queue up for 2v2. The game commences and you rush in to do some serious damage, except you don't really hurt him at all while he's running over you like a train. Why? Because he hit level 90 before you, so he has had time to wait the 4 weeks for the malevolent weapon.

You realize getting your 2,2k isn't going to be possible until you've waited for your 7250 season-earned conquest points. So while you wait for these 4 weeks to pass, you level up a new character, but when you hit 90, you find yourself being punished by Blizzard for levelling it, because now you're completely useless in PvP again, and you'll have to wait another 4 weeks in order to be able to kill stuff.

If my point doesn't come across clearly, I'll help you out a little here. Having to spend literally days of your life trying to attain gear is completely ridiculous and especially when you're a multiclasser like me. Instead of rewarding us for spending more time in this game, they choose to punish us and make us utterly useless for weeks. PvE is favored in this regard as you can, with some luck/help, be full epic literally the same week as you hit 90.

Winning a BG in this expansion does not rely on how well your team is doing; it's all about who has the less amount of bots in their team. This is a serious issue, but there is an obvious reason for why there are so many bots. People simply don't want to waste their time farming gear that they should have had from the get-go. I'd very much like a Guild Wars 2-solution where as soon as you enter a PvP area of some sort, you'd be fully geared. You are even implementing this for lower levels, so why not on 90?

I know you feel compelled to tell me I'm a noob that has to learn to play, but you can check my achievements, I'm not new to this game, I'm just sick of PvE being favored so much in every regard. If you watch a stream of any multigladiator/rank 1 that does PvP in low gear, you'll find that they are stuck on low ratings and they die to noobs all the time. I can't recall which multi rank 1 player that was recently on a negative w/l on 1600 mmr simply due to the fact that he doesn't have full PvP gear.

You introduced PvP power for the sole reason of making PvP less gear-dependent by removing PvE from the PvP arena, but instead you made it more gear-dependent than it has ever been.

Fix it so I don't have to die to backpedallers anymore.
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#2 mukuld50

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:36 AM

A much easier and quicker fix to the obvious issues that you have mentioned, would be to add a pvp power/stats weapon and offhand for every class, and have the honor gear fully upgraded when you buy it the first time? Or reduce the honor upgrading cost for accounts that have one character who has earned 7250 conq points for the season (or something along those lines)

Edit: I mean hell, I cannot keep up with my main in terms of keeping gear up-to-date with the amount of time I can play this game, let alone think of leveling a second or third shaman like I have in past seasons

Edited by mukuld50, 28 December 2012 - 04:40 AM.


#3 Toitles

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:49 AM

It's also important to note that, leveling normally, it takes longer to reach level 90 than it takes to play most single player rpgs to completion!  Pull out all the stops to level as quickly as possible and you're still probably looking at a time commitment on par with finishing the single player campaign in an fps or action game.  Getting a character to endgame in WoW is a huge time investment.

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#4 Braindance

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:54 AM

Just remove the 7250 points accrued requirement - you can get a higher ilvl pve weapon from LFR anw.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#5 Thaya

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:56 AM

As lame as it is, I'll repost something I literally just posted in another thread, on the subject of item upgrades:

Quote

It's really not that it's more "hardcore" now. It's more like if you didn't play since the first few weeks, consistently, you can just fuck off.

The biggest problem is that the total amount of points required to be full geared is much more now, so the difference between you and the top geared people is even bigger, and it also takes (much) longer to reduce this gap. I mean a lot of the high rated players are still not even full 2/2 themselves, so if both you and them are still working on gear, that gap hasn't even started reducing yet. You won't even feel like your gear situation is improving compared to them, because they are still improving their gear as well.

It's a really fucking retarded system, and I'm sure it made LESS people play, not more like it was trying to. I doubt I'm the only one who thought halfway into a season "hey, maybe I should try PvP again... oh wait, jk, won't be fun being shit geared ALL THE FUCKING TIME". A counterproductive, stupid idea.
The biggest problem with this system is the total amount of points required to be fully geared. It makes it completely impossible to join a season half way. This kills off both players who decided to PvP mid way AND alts, which combined is a huge portion of the players. This affects arena activity very negatively.

The other problem is the difference between fully geared players and honor geared players. WoW is a MMORPG based on character progression yada yada blah blah blah, but upgrades made this gap even bigger, and being undergeared in PvP is less fun than it EVER was in the entire history of the game. At its base this is a balance issue (and probably deserves a thread of its own - it will be hard to discuss both of these problems in 1 discussion), but there are at least a couple of very easy fixes that WON'T need heavy number balancing. The one I personally like a lot is: leave PvP power only on weapons and trinkets; the only pieces of PvE gear that were abused in PvP consistently are weapons and trinkets, this change will pretty much completely save the function of PvP power while making it MUCH easier to balance honor gear vs conquest gear, as well as make it much easier to gear up enough to be 'viable' in PvP.

Edited by Thaya, 28 December 2012 - 04:57 AM.

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#6 Poseyx

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:57 AM

Theres a really productive way of farming honor, i like to think of it as my buddy it farms honor while you sleep, are in class, or whatever you are doing and all it costs is pocket change!!
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#7 Thaya

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:59 AM

View PostGambino6, on 28 December 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

Theres a really productive way of farming honor, i like to think of it as my buddy it farms honor while you sleep, are in class, or whatever you are doing and all it costs is pocket change!!
Fuck you.

I used to love doing random battlegrounds, just for fun, back in WotLK and TBC when it wasn't just 70% bots on both sides, and sometimes even 100% bot teams late at night. Botting removed that entire aspect out of the game.
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#8 GrieverZ

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:33 AM

Just stopped playing alts for now tbh, only one i geared is my Warrior and i wouldn't had done it if i knew how pointless it would be. Even if you got trough the hell that is gearing from scratch in random bgs and wait your 2-3 weeks to get a PvP viable weapon, you're still stuck so far behind with no ways to catch up you just have no way to be competitive.

#9 Crawthz

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:19 PM

The gear difference is biggest WoW has ever seen, from Dreadfull to 2/2 Malevolent. It's whooping 33 item levels, which is the SAME difference as BWD Heroic vs Dragon Soul Heroic TIER item. That's a WHOLE EXPANSION of itemlevels between.
Just for the sake of argument, items to compare:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=65019 (372 ilvl)
vs
http://www.wowhead.com/item=78729 (410 ilvl)

Or PvP equals
http://www.wowhead.com/item=73573 (390 ilvl, was reduced at patch 5.0.1 from 403 ilvl)
vs
http://www.wowhead.com/item=60471 (352 ilvl)

The gap is just too great between gears and they even increased the cost of many items by +50 or +100 conquest/honorpoint at start of MoP for no apparent reason.

There needs to be a solution for this next season or we can all forgot our alts or new rerolls AGAIN.

Edited by Crawthz, 28 December 2012 - 12:41 PM.

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#10 Zaephyr

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:54 PM

Just give full pvp gear as soon as people hit 90

pls
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#11 Sar3x

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 02:08 PM

I agree wit Zaé, the majority of pvp'ers arent doing it for the gear progression, just make the seasonal gear obtainable at the start of the season so it's a level playing ground, maybe keep the t2 for 2.2+ as a reward but it's so shit that you have to wait months to get a char geared to a level where you don't get shat on by anyone...

#12 Cocoapuffs

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 02:36 PM

bring back rating requirement for gear instead of season earned on weapons

#13 Niezeremake

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 02:44 PM

What they should do is that after X weeks into seasons your alt or your main that u have leveled has like some 15000 conquest point cap per week so you can get gear much faster. Well that's alot of arena to do just to get cap, well if you do like arena and want better gear i'm pretty sure you will do all those arenas, this will also increase arena activity even more.

About honor they should obviously have some 463 PvP weapon that you could buy for honor and perhaps add another kind of Tol barad. There is already a daily bg win that gives you more honor than usual, there should be something like a daily BG win for every Battleground so you could get honor even faster.

Edited by Niezeremake, 28 December 2012 - 02:49 PM.

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#14 Horke

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 02:46 PM

I think the thing is that people are doing more and more outside of game. The majority of people who started to play this game when we we're teenage bosses and didn't give 2 cents about anything but gaming and chilling are getting to the age where we put a slightly higher prio on other stuf.

Back in the days pixel'd plate-suits were highly desirable for us. Now it's about getting into a few arenagames and have a good time eliminating opponents with your mates. The gear aspect is super-irrelevant to most people and have been for long. If blizzard doesn't realize peoples true ambitions with this game they will soon lose alot of subs to it.

I hope blizzard recognize this because it was a well adressed issue. And it's good to see that everyone who plays this game for the right reasons have a strong mindset towards where the game needs to be going.

#15 Allfinete

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:05 PM

Other solution to the time required to farm your gear on alts would be making conquest work like valor in pve, where if one toon reached the cap that week, all other toons receive extra valor (or conquest, in this sense). And also make the total conquest points acquired the same for you whole account, based on the toon that has the biggest number of conquest earned.

This wouldn't solve the whole problem with ilevel disparity between dreadful and malevolent, but it's a start.

#16 J_DA

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:13 PM

It's just a business strategy by Blizzard. Plain and simple. They want you to continue playing to work towards these goals that, in your eyes, will benefit you greatly. So you keep on playing/making alts and capping them in order to progress. If everything came to you straight away we'd get bored quickly.. Or so they think

#17 AcerMVP

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:27 PM

Want to know how to fix this? Give CP a rested cap. Same way that you need to be in an inn to get rested? same way to get an extra 75-100cp cap rested per day. It makes up for all that lost time for those who still play and are of over age. As this post below me explains. Most of us that still play are from either BC or Wrath. I'm a vanilla player and always quit every year and come back for a few months.
But I have a full time job plus my own company that I need to take care of, so I can't log in all the time and I think if they give rested CP cap, it can fix a lot of the PvP Gear issue they have with players not being able to gear out quickly enough due to not being able to play.

View PostHorke, on 28 December 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

I think the thing is that people are doing more and more outside of game. The majority of people who started to play this game when we we're teenage bosses and didn't give 2 cents about anything but gaming and chilling are getting to the age where we put a slightly higher prio on other stuf.

Back in the days pixel'd plate-suits were highly desirable for us. Now it's about getting into a few arenagames and have a good time eliminating opponents with your mates. The gear aspect is super-irrelevant to most people and have been for long. If blizzard doesn't realize peoples true ambitions with this game they will soon lose alot of subs to it.

I hope blizzard recognize this because it was a well adressed issue. And it's good to see that everyone who plays this game for the right reasons have a strong mindset towards where the game needs to be going.


#18 CreepStatus

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:28 PM

View PostThaya, on 28 December 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

Fuck you.

I used to love doing random battlegrounds, just for fun, back in WotLK and TBC when it wasn't just 70% bots on both sides, and sometimes even 100% bot teams late at night. Botting removed that entire aspect out of the game.

You can't really put the blame on the people that bot, some people enjoy certain aspects of this game and in order to get to those aspects you have to spend an absurd amount of time on the game that, in reality, most people just don't have.
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#19 Hazzah

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:28 PM

View PostJ_DA, on 28 December 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

It's just a business strategy by Blizzard.

A bad one at that. I can't be bothered levelling alts anymore because I'll be so far behind in terms of gear by the time I hit 90 anyway.
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#20 Horke

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:42 PM

Yea the businesstrat is understandable. But what they're doing with this is they're giving us an overdose and we all know the unfortunate fate of people who O.D... (Sorry for the harsh metaphor. But it's the best way I got put it in picture to see what the reality of what blizzard doing is)




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