113 replies to this topic

[Antitaleon]

Sagild, on 20 December 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Because melee cleaves dmg cant be interrupt / dispelled and is in general more faceroll and easy to play than melee caster healer or wizard cleaves in general. Don't really see how you can even question this. Also the current state of the game with basically every class having an interrupt pretty much only benefits a melee cleave.

ahahahah what, and this is even coming from a mage

[Toxile]

TteSPORTSDoomsen, on 20 December 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

you cant be a panda as druid mate. you gotta decide

HEUAEHAEUHAHEHAHE

[originn]

I feel like this thread needs more first time access multi duelist warriors defending melee cleaves

[Galaleo]

Cranky, on 20 December 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

I love the two camps in this game. "All you do is tunnel and derp derp" - Caster "All you do is cc forever and still do crazy dmg" - Melee. Been like that forever. For some reason "casters" have a superiority complex. I know from personal experience playing at 2450+ with priest, druid, hunter, rogue, and warrior that there really is not a difference in the leet skillzors it takes to play well. Some classes are just more limited than others in what they can do. Very amusing to see all the casters whine since forever when a melee team beats them. But when they win its cause of they are so skilled and outplayed the derpy melee. /sigh I guess that's WoW for ya haha.

ON TOPIC: My rdruid feels weak now. Need to play with an spriest or mage at the least. Went regrowth glyph to help me keep people up

You are warrior and point is invalid. I played both melee and caster @ high lvls and the caster comps ALWAYS have to do more than the melee to win. The few times I played melee cleave it was pick a target and have 1 simple focus kick bind. THATS IS, no fake casting, no juking, no real need for CC because there was no way in hell the casters would be able to pump the damage we did.

[Nightmonkey]

Galaleo, on 20 December 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

You are warrior and point is invalid. I played both melee and caster @ high lvls and the caster comps ALWAYS have to do more than the melee to win. The few times I played melee cleave it was pick a target and have 1 simple focus kick bind. THATS IS, no fake casting, no juking, no real need for CC because there was no way in hell the casters would be able to pump the damage we did.

You are warlock and point is invalid.  I played both melee and caster @ high lvls and the caster comps NEVER have to do more than the melee to win.  The few times I played caster cleave it was pick a target and use instant cast abilities to do absurd damage from range.  If that doesn't work, throw an instant cast CC at the healer and do it again.

It's very important to make sure you juke your chaos waves and touch of chaos these days, wouldn't want our burst getting interrupted now would we?

Seriously though, why can't anyone seem to see past their own class bias?  Casters barely have to cast anything these days, most of it is instant.  Casters have just as many if not more tools than melee to survive, escape, cc, etc.  But somehow because we have to cast a spell occasionally, it makes our classes harder to play?  Get serious.

[phishy]

melee cleave has always been geared around tunneling the same target into the ground because it works. often times that target is the healer due to interrupts.

caster cleave has, for the most part, been geared toward swapping targets a lot with somewhat coordinated CC. why do they swap more than melee cleave? it's easier to swap when you're a ranged class. why do they CC more? they actually have ranged CC, often CC that doesnt have a cooldown. now, this will obviously make the caster cleaves marginally harder to play than a melee cleave because you actually deal with this thing called CC and swapping more than a melee cleave, but the game has become so dumbed down now and with so many instant casts that caster cleave isn't really all that much harder than melee cleave anymore. no comp is really that hard to figure out how to play anymore.

which cleave is stronger just depends on the whether melee are gods or casters are gods. 3's would be so much better if there was some sort of advantage to bringing both a caster and a melee, but that's hardly the case

[Braindance]

phishy, on 20 December 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

melee cleave has always been geared around tunneling the same target into the ground because it works. often times that target is the healer due to interrupts.

caster cleave has, for the most part, been geared toward swapping targets a lot with somewhat coordinated CC. why do they swap more than melee cleave? it's easier to swap when you're a ranged class. why do they CC more? they actually have ranged CC, often CC that doesnt have a cooldown. now, this will obviously make the caster cleaves marginally harder to play than a melee cleave because you actually deal with this thing called CC and swapping more than a melee cleave, but the game has become so dumbed down now and with so many instant casts that caster cleave isn't really all that much harder than melee cleave anymore. no comp is really that hard to figure out how to play anymore.

which cleave is stronger just depends on the whether melee are gods or casters are gods. 3's would be so much better if there was some sort of advantage to bringing both a caster and a melee, but that's hardly the case

This is almost exactly what I said 3 pages ago, but hell, no one is willing to listen

[zzyzzyzz]

Cranky, on 20 December 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

I love the two camps in this game. "All you do is tunnel and derp derp" - Caster "All you do is cc forever and still do crazy dmg" - Melee. Been like that forever. For some reason "casters" have a superiority complex. I know from personal experience playing at 2450+ with priest, druid, hunter, rogue, and warrior that there really is not a difference in the leet skillzors it takes to play well. Some classes are just more limited than others in what they can do. Very amusing to see all the casters whine since forever when a melee team beats them. But when they win its cause of they are so skilled and outplayed the derpy melee. /sigh I guess that's WoW for ya haha.

ON TOPIC: My rdruid feels weak now. Need to play with an spriest or mage at the least. Went regrowth glyph to help me keep people up

id say this stems from wotlk/bc. in cata and mop casters are easy. mages do not take any more skill then a war hunter (maybe a tad more) but the gap is certainly not as far as it once was. a mage in wotlk when fighting a hunter got DESTROYED and was still required to "cast spells" (remember that? casting?) to damage and cast spells to cc. it was hard to cast as a mage vs LSD ATC and BEASTCLEAVE trust me

melee comps historically take less skill simply because training the "best target" for the ENTIRE game is both frustrating and mindless. the concept of never swapping and having success shouldnt exist and yet melee cleaves made it so.

melee cleaves to me are just like cast cleaves, they need to be abolished. the game should be balanced around caster melee healer. the triangle of caster melee healer is not only more balanced for gameplay its more fun.

im not gonna go into the details of why caster melee healer comps make the game better because if you dont know this is true then you are not a good player



healing nerf on druids was too harsh

[Gekz]

Half the time my heals literally take away hp against kfc

[Galaleo]

Nightmonkey, on 20 December 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

You are warlock and point is invalid.  I played both melee and caster @ high lvls and the caster comps NEVER have to do more than the melee to win.  The few times I played caster cleave it was pick a target and use instant cast abilities to do absurd damage from range.  If that doesn't work, throw an instant cast CC at the healer and do it again.

It's very important to make sure you juke your chaos waves and touch of chaos these days, wouldn't want our burst getting interrupted now would we?

Seriously though, why can't anyone seem to see past their own class bias?  Casters barely have to cast anything these days, most of it is instant.  Casters have just as many if not more tools than melee to survive, escape, cc, etc.  But somehow because we have to cast a spell occasionally, it makes our classes harder to play?  Get serious.

Learn to fucking read. I have half my titles on a feral druid. Have also played rogue to 2700s. Melee does not take skill, it takes semi coordinated derp. If you honestly dont know how to juke caster damage then you seriously need to learn to play.

[originn]

Gekz, on 20 December 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

Half the time my heals literally take away hp against kfc

stay strong bro don't lose gope

[Galaleo]

Nightmonkey, on 20 December 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

You are warlock and point is invalid.  I played both melee and caster @ high lvls and the caster comps NEVER have to do more than the melee to win.  The few times I played caster cleave it was pick a target and use instant cast abilities to do absurd damage from range.  If that doesn't work, throw an instant cast CC at the healer and do it again.

It's very important to make sure you juke your chaos waves and touch of chaos these days, wouldn't want our burst getting interrupted now would we?

Seriously though, why can't anyone seem to see past their own class bias?  Casters barely have to cast anything these days, most of it is instant.  Casters have just as many if not more tools than melee to survive, escape, cc, etc.  But somehow because we have to cast a spell occasionally, it makes our classes harder to play?  Get serious.

P.S. 63 games played on your active toon and no 1550 achieve. Which one of your glad buddies allowed you to use their account to speak?

[Galaleo]

zzyzzyzz, on 20 December 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

id say this stems from wotlk/bc. in cata and mop casters are easy. mages do not take any more skill then a war hunter (maybe a tad more) but the gap is certainly not as far as it once was. a mage in wotlk when fighting a hunter got DESTROYED and was still required to "cast spells" (remember that? casting?) to damage and cast spells to cc. it was hard to cast as a mage vs LSD ATC and BEASTCLEAVE trust me

melee comps historically take less skill simply because training the "best target" for the ENTIRE game is both frustrating and mindless. the concept of never swapping and having success shouldnt exist and yet melee cleaves made it so.

melee cleaves to me are just like cast cleaves, they need to be abolished. the game should be balanced around caster melee healer. the triangle of caster melee healer is not only more balanced for gameplay its more fun.

im not gonna go into the details of why caster melee healer comps make the game better because if you dont know this is true then you are not a good player



healing nerf on druids was too harsh

I want a melee healing class. Its like constant aura mastery but the closer you are the more healing you do.

[Railander]

Nearz, on 20 December 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

As a restoshaman, I'm having real trouble to heal through double melee team.
If they focus me, I die quite instantly or if they're bad, I survive until I have any cooldowns left.
If they focus my partner (Shatterplay), I'm OOM in 30 sec...

[deprivelol]

DISC PRIEST OP WATCH OUT

[Durotann]

Not sure why people are so eager to define what comps take more "skill" than other comps. Most people are going to play whatever is most effective and grants them the most success, regardless of how much perceived "skill" it takes.

[Kriff]

I personally am a firm believer that kills should only happen during CC (unless a team messes up, obviously). Damage cooldowns should be capable of landing kills during less CC (but not zero CC) or at least cause trinkets or defensive cooldowns. Once these defensive cooldowns and trinkets have been used, a planned CC train should result in a kill.

I believe this is Blizzards ultimate goal but they seemed to have strayed off the path. There is simply too much damage (particularly from melee or physical cleaves if you include hunters) and too many cooldowns and instant CC. I can't tell you how many times I have seen a mage die against KFC just because of a single silencing shot, or seen a team helpless because the other team has a cooldown to counteract every CC they have.

Overall, I think damage is too high, and since we have too many cooldowns/instant CC, DRs and cooldowns need to be increased. I would preferably want there to be fewer cooldowns, but I doubt they would remove stuff from the game. From there, I think the game would be decent rather than dominated by overwhelming damage or overwhelming control.

[Hackattack3]

Braindance, on 20 December 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

Why are melee cleaves benefited the most?What dumb stereotype is the? EVERYONE that deals damage is benefited

It comes down to the style of play and the way comps get kills.

Melee cleaves typically train one person, maybe a swap on heals if in bad position or used Cds, until something falls over.  Caster cleaves have more swaps and kills at 100-0 b/c healer is in CC w/o defensive CDs up.  Healing debuff helped melee cleaves a lot more b/c it aligns with their particular strategy/style of play.

It also favors mindless healer tunneling, which is always bad.

IF dot cleaves were around then the healing debuff change would also greatly benefit them, since they are based on pressure w/ damage, similar to melee cleaves, the difference is pressure on all targets or one.

I believe:

You should be able to win games by:

1.  long cc chain and burst
2.  OOMing other healer
3.  pressure from single target or spread damage



My Recommmendation:

1.  revert healing debuff to 15%
2.  pvp wide mana regeneration reduction by 30% (would make healers think about healing efficiently and better change for mages)

[Domesauce]

Look it doesn't matter which one is harder to play. The problem is that it's way too easy to die to insane damage. Damage was already really high, people were getting as much resil as possible to stay alive. They hardly nerfed anything about damage and decided they could just throw in another massive healing nerf with no problems. Clearly they were wrong.

[Nisslol]

originn, on 20 December 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

I feel like this thread needs more first time access multi duelist warriors defending melee cleaves

Indeed, tastes good spiced with rogue butthurt.

Edited by Nisslol, 20 December 2012 - 10:06 PM.