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#41 AwesoMegAmazing

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:18 AM

View PostWitsel, on 14 December 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

Fucking disgusted by USA sometimes, you guys are filled with opressed people that are literally ticking time bombs ready to explode and go on a rampage. this is so revolting

You're disgusted by the USA? So you're disgusted by everyone in it because some of them are lunatics? Great logic.

View PostDuckers, on 09 February 2011 - 04:05 PM, said:

I eat McDonalds every day

View PostDuckers, on 12 June 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Can't ever really go wrong with McDonalds.

View PostDuckers, on 08 August 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

Get that girl a Happy Meal and she will never leave you.

#42 Bloodriot

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:23 AM

View PostKakio, on 14 December 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

cant really blame the gunlaws. this guy went out of his way to get this gun meaning he would easily have gotten one illigally if he couldnt get it otherwise.

why make anything illegal


i mean i could get weapons grade plutonium if i really wanted
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#43 Namechangex

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:28 AM

View PostJayru, on 15 December 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

Ak-47s cost as low as $30-50 in some places, the director of the movie Lord of War bought real AK's (3000 I think) for his movie cause the props were more expensive.

Funny it cost way more to make one too :)

I'd buy a pack of AKs if I could find the place :D
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#44 Jayru

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:39 AM

View PostBloodriot, on 15 December 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

why make anything illegal


i mean i could get weapons grade plutonium if i really wanted

With enough money you could do it, and it'd be perfectly legal.  Here in the U.S. you can own a tank, and military planes/jets.  You can also own grenades, grenade launchers, anti-tank weapons, and RPG's.

#45 Ruinz

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:48 AM

View PostAwesoMegAmazing, on 15 December 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

You're disgusted by the USA? So you're disgusted by everyone in it because some of them are lunatics? Great logic.

I think he is more or less disgusted by the USA because your laws fucking sucks and because schoolshootings like this happens way more in USA than in any other country

#46 FTRouslan

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:49 AM

View PostKakio, on 15 December 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

guys you dont understand that in cases like this where its planned ahead banning all weapons would only hinder this guy by a few days. do you know how easy it is get illigal weapons in the US? People like this who plan ahead are always gonna be able to get their weapons so banning all weapons wont really help. Look at the norway shooting where he just crossed the border with them. or look at loads of the finnish school massacres where they got guns from russia...its so easy to get ahold of guns illigally banning them wont do shit for cases like this.

A few more days could mean a huge difference between a massacre, and an apprehension and arrest.

I'm also quite positive that making firearms harder to get will boost the price of illegal firearms considerably, making them even harder to acquire. Maybe it won't stop every shooting, but if we stop ONE shooting with some reasonable form of gun control, then the legislation is successful.

View PostDU5KNOIR, on 15 December 2012 - 01:40 AM, said:

i haven't read this thread because i have a feeling it's a shit hole so pardon me if this is being repeated

at this moment it's far easier to buy an illegal gun than a legal one, which is evidence that no matter how strict gun laws can be, it will never take them out of the hands of criminals. the only way to prevent tragedies like this is to treat the underlying issue, which is not always, but is very often, untreated mental illnesses among impoverished people. proper, universal health care and incentive to seek health care (=> proper, universal education) are the best and perhaps only ways things like this can be prevented. it's baffling that people can still be shocked at events like this when it's easier to get a semi-automatic rifle than medication for schizophrenia.

I really like this post though. I really do.

#47 Breadstick

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:50 AM

View PostDU5KNOIR, on 15 December 2012 - 01:40 AM, said:

i haven't read this thread because i have a feeling it's a shit hole so pardon me if this is being repeated

at this moment it's far easier to buy an illegal gun than a legal one, which is evidence that no matter how strict gun laws can be, it will never take them out of the hands of criminals. the only way to prevent tragedies like this is to treat the underlying issue, which is not always, but is very often, untreated mental illnesses among impoverished people. proper, universal health care and incentive to seek health care (=> proper, universal education) are the best and perhaps only ways things like this can be prevented. it's baffling that people can still be shocked at events like this when it's easier to get a semi-automatic rifle than medication for schizophrenia.

i think i actually agree with you, nice
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#48 Buglamp

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:59 AM

What was this guy's mental illness? Is it not possible that he wasn't (clinically) mentally ill?

I'd think it's a culture thing more than a healthcare thing, other places without access to good education or healthcare manage to have a relatively peaceful population. Not arguing that our healthcare/education systems are good, I just doubt they're a main cause of this sort of thing personally.

The US is fairly alienating and stressful to live in for a lot of people, there are poorer countries with higher QOL because there's a better sense of community.

#49 Bloodriot

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:06 AM

I find it hilarious that the argument against gun laws, which can largely be described as a conservative one, is the exact same argument lefties use for welfare, social security and for prison policies that focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment.
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:12 AM

View PostBuglamp, on 15 December 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

The US is fairly alienating and stressful to live in for a lot of people, there are poorer countries with higher QOL because there's a better sense of community.

Exactly my opinion, the reasons can be many tho, but it's definitly opressed people, probably under alot of stress who can't ever find peace with themselves, building up rage and despair over their lifetime which they can't ever solve and that brings them to do such things.

#51 Bloodriot

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:15 AM

at least 15 mass shootings in 2012 in America

the real issue is people are stressed, not our gun laws.
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#52 Namechangex

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:19 AM

View PostWitsel, on 15 December 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

Exactly my opinion, the reasons can be many tho, but it's definitly opressed people, probably under alot of stress who can't ever find peace with themselves, building up rage and despair over their lifetime which they can't ever solve and that brings them to do such things.

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#53

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:22 AM

View PostBloodriot, on 15 December 2012 - 02:15 AM, said:

at least 15 mass shootings in 2012 in America

the real issue is people are stressed, not our gun laws.

I don't think gun laws would affect mass murders, probably would solve some spontaneous one, but the mass ones are normally premeditated so it's a different story



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#54 Bloodriot

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:28 AM

Why is it only the USA in the Western world that seems to suffer mass shootings and rampage shootings in this way, then?
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#55 Jayru

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:33 AM

View PostDU5KNOIR, on 15 December 2012 - 01:40 AM, said:

at this moment it's far easier to buy an illegal gun than a legal one, which is evidence that no matter how strict gun laws can be, it will never take them out of the hands of criminals. the only way to prevent tragedies like this is to treat the underlying issue, which is not always, but is very often, untreated mental illnesses among impoverished people. proper, universal health care and incentive to seek health care (=> proper, universal education) are the best and perhaps only ways things like this can be prevented. it's baffling that people can still be shocked at events like this when it's easier to get a semi-automatic rifle than medication for schizophrenia.

Not disagreeing with you, but stolen guns used in 15% of crimes.  For today's shooting, the guns were owned by the kid's mother supposedly.  The mall shooting wasn't a mass shooting, but he stole (borrowed) the gun from a friend.  Pretty much all other shootings were acquired legally and the shooter was the owner of the gun (movie theatre shooting, ft hood shooting, the sikh temple shooting, both hair salon shootings, can't remember the others atm).  

Now for "illegal guns" (guns aren't legal/illegal unless it's an unregistered NFA item), it's not necessarily that they're stolen in most cases. The way of obtaining a gun illegally is through a straw purchase (which isn't inherently illegal), or by a person buying it then reporting it stolen when they really just sold it to someone that shouldn't have a gun.  I forget the statistic but I think it was 87% of gun stores don't have guns used in crimes traced back to them at all (stolen or not stolen).  I think it was 7% of gun stores sell over 60% of all guns used in crimes.  

View PostFTRouslan, on 15 December 2012 - 01:49 AM, said:

A few more days could mean a huge difference between a massacre, and an apprehension and arrest.

I'm also quite positive that making firearms harder to get will boost the price of illegal firearms considerably, making them even harder to acquire. Maybe it won't stop every shooting, but if we stop ONE shooting with some reasonable form of gun control, then the legislation is successful.
I really like this post though. I really do.

The Norway shooter went through his arduous process.  Virginia Tech shooter waited for 30 days for each gun I believe (60 total).  Many of the other shootings this year, the people already owned their guns.  Arrest?  Arrest for what? If they have no criminal record what's there to arrest them for?  And again, I'll say most firearms used in crimes/mass shootings were legally obtained.  The "illegal market" of guns in the U.S. is very small, guns aren't significantly cheaper.  

View PostBuglamp, on 15 December 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

What was this guy's mental illness? Is it not possible that he wasn't (clinically) mentally ill?

Rumor so far (according to his brother) is aspergers and a personality disorder.

View PostBloodriot, on 15 December 2012 - 02:28 AM, said:

Why is it only the USA in the Western world that seems to suffer mass shootings and rampage shootings in this way, then?

Selection bias, not knowing what's going on in other countries, etc.  The U.S. has one of the highest violent crime rates in the world, only rivaled by Honduras--not even Mexico rivals the murder rate afaik.  But then again, in Mexico cartels have 15 minute shootouts with police, and guess what--guns are pretty much impossible to get unless you have a shitload of money.  The U.S. is also one of the only first world countries that still implement the death penalty, doesn't have NHS, and a few other factors that are correlated with the crime rate.

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:35 AM

Well they do it because they want to, it's who they are, it's not related to the gun policy. You could buy a baseball bat wherever you live and go beat up people (it's legal to buy one), but you won't because you have standards etc.

The mass murders also happen in other countries but I also think it happens way 2 much in USA, that's why I used the word 'disgusted', guess it's not entirely fair tho

#57 Bloodriot

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:43 AM

View PostWitsel, on 15 December 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

Well they do it because they want to, it's who they are, it's not related to the gun policy. You could buy a baseball bat wherever you live and go beat up people (it's legal to buy one), but you won't because you have standards etc.

The mass murders also happen in other countries but I also think it happens way 2 much in USA, that's why I used the word 'disgusted', guess it's not entirely fair tho

Please don't compare guns to baseball bats jesus christ.
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#58 Bloodriot

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:47 AM

View PostJayru, on 15 December 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

Selection bias, not knowing what's going on in other countries, etc.  The U.S. has one of the highest violent crime rates in the world, only rivaled by Honduras--not even Mexico rivals the murder rate afaik.  But then again, in Mexico cartels have 15 minute shootouts with police, and guess what--guns are pretty much impossible to get unless you have a shitload of money.  The U.S. is also one of the only first world countries that still implement the death penalty, doesn't have NHS, and a few other factors that are correlated with the crime rate.

I mean places like Western Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etcetera.
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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:49 AM

why not? it's same logic tho.

It's just like drugs, they are illegal but anyone that wants to take some, can do it without any trouble. Like I said and I repeat for last time. I'm 100% against their gun laws, but it's not the reason such murders happen.

#60 Jayru

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:56 AM

Let me sum this up real quick.  Anti-gun vs pro-gun always devolves into this:
Pro--guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Anti--Yea, but easier to kill people with guns.
Pro--bad guys always get guns.  
Anti--don't let bad guys get guns, stricter laws
Pro-- ....
Anti--we have to do something
Pro--Yea, give people more guns.  No reason one guy can walk into an area where 100s of people are sitting ducks and be able to kill as many people as he wants and no one can stop him.  Usually ends with guy killing himself (50%).  Law enforcement stops the rampage some 13% of the time.  30-40% of time it's stopped by a civilian.
Anti--no that's retarded, only leads to more civilian casualties.  Civilians not trained to use guns
Pro--police have a 13% casualty rate, vs a citizen's 2% innocent people hit casualty rate.  
Anti--ya but police deal with more shit
Pro-- ....
Anti--Well you shouldn't be allowed to buy assault weapons
Pro--no such thing as an assault weapon.  Assault is a verb not a noun.
Anti--whatever.  there's no reason you need an assault weapon
Pro--you can't regulate things based on necessity.
Anti--yes you can, guns kill people, you can regulate them.  high capacity, more powerful, yada yada
Pro-- uhm.  doesn't matter those guns used in 1-3% of these things, police don't even bother to keep stats cause it's so low.
Anti--Well you don't need those guns, you don't need guns period but you definitely don't need those big scary guns.
Pro--que assault weapon vs assault rifle, handguns used in most crimes/mass shootings, 2nd amendment,  i use for self defense, you can't take away, rah rah
Anti--you must have tiny penis
Pro--I have a gun, fuck you




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