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Juggernaut vs Double Time

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Poll: Juggernaut vs Double Time (100 member(s) have cast votes)

What are you using, Juggernaut or Double Time?

  1. Juggernaut (32 votes [32.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 32.00%

  2. Double Time (47 votes [47.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 47.00%

  3. Juggernaut, and I can provide reasoning that it is better (13 votes [13.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.00%

  4. Double Time, and I can provide reasoning that it is better (8 votes [8.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.00%

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#1 Jacklin

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:48 AM

I think this forum needs more of the old theorycrafting.

Try and be constructive! :ph34r:
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#2 Artunias

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:03 AM

I think both have their place, it depends on your comp and play style.

I prefer juggernaut for more consistent charging. Between charge and 30 sec heroic leap I don't really see the need to have a second charge right away. Playing with both I've just found myself when playing with double time that I don't seem to have charge when i really want it, and normally I do with Juggernaut? That might not be the best explanation, but that's just how it seems to me.

Though perhaps in demo/war combos with such insane burst and you're switching off of immunities while your cooldowns are up. I could definitely see the use of double time then. Like I said I think it just depends on your comp and play style.

Edited by Artunias, 24 November 2012 - 01:04 AM.


#3 Jacklin

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:28 AM

I don't know, I've been definitely noticing a weaker mobility when watching streams of warriors using Juggernaut, including Veev's. :huh:
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#4 Milajovovich

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:29 AM

double time because there are 5 thousand mages in arena atm and it's just too good vs mages!

Double Time +1

#5 Superkåre

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:31 AM

juggernaut because reckful uses it

#6 piptip

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:54 AM

whatever veev does.

#7 itsrambo23

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:26 AM

View Postpiptip, on 24 November 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

whatever veev does.

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#8 Draedx

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:32 AM

Juggernaut is far and above the better choice for mobility.  The reasoning is simple; after you charge twice with Double Time, you can't charge twice again for 40 seconds.  This results in a charge on 20 second cooldown.  Each charge of Double Time takes 20 seconds to build up and they are not on individual timers, and by that I mean; the second charge does not start its CD timer until the first one has finished.  You could argue that staggering your charges with Double Time is better, but it is not true.  You can only gain rage from charge every 12 seconds making Juggernaut the obvious choice for rage consistency.  As the game goes on Double Time gets worse and worse compared to Juggernaut (once double time is used, 5 charges per minute vs. 3 charges).

Double time, in my opinion, is a PVE talent/Prot FC talent and I think that Warbringer is better as a second option in arena PVP(the 3 second stun does not DR shockwave).

#9 Chizzey

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:19 AM

I am using Double Time, but considering to switch to Juggernaut because of pointed reasons, and have to say that i feel double time is not as good as it sounds like

if it was like you get 2 charges charge once and it gets a CD and you charge twice but the first CD isnt resettet, if it was something like that

different cooldowns in 1 ability than it would be awesome but like it is now, i think juggernaut is better

#10 Krigoz

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:20 AM

If you can manage your charges and dont brainlessly charge randomly then Double time is by far the best talent of the two.
Considering that, Warbringer is usualy what i use in 2s tho. The fact that it doesent DR with your shockwave is just beyond OP, and is stronly underated as a talent.
its basicly 3 sec charge stun into 4 sec Shockwave into 3 sec Gag.
As a healer in this small rotation you are either dead or out of all that is defensive CD's, (Yes this is without the warrior popping annything) (( Immagine when he does.. ))

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#11 Jacklin

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:58 PM

The juggernaut argument, while valid, assumes a lot! For example, a basic flaw is that it assumes warriors w/ Double Time always double charge in the beginning, which simply doesn't represent reality (And I see this argument on all the boards I've read, come on!). Moreover, I feel like Double Time's relative weaknesses are more than offset by the fact that you get a considerable mobility/multitasking bump. I am having NO problem whatsoever sticking to targets, and It has never been even close to what I can achieve by Double Time.

I rarely double charge, and if I do, I normally need nothing more. Not to mention the added value from having an extra charge to stop important, live or die, CC/spells from being cast.

To conclude, while the 40s argument is not completely off the table, I've never spent anything even close to waiting that.

Edited by Jacklin, 25 November 2012 - 01:03 PM.

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#12 Draedx

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 05:07 PM

Juggernaut is the best for me; it is a reliable, rage gaining charge every 12 seconds.  Double time is gimmicky and if you use your charges back to back, it cripples your mobility in comparison to Juggernaut.  You are not increasing mobility, you are losing mobility over the duration of a game.

View PostKrigoz, on 25 November 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

If you can manage your charges and dont brainlessly charge randomly then Double time is by far the best talent of the two.
There is zero explanation with your comment, because it is untrue and a heady statement.  There is no brainwork required for double time, so don't try to pat yourself on the back for figuring out some great mystery.  Lets write it out, assuming charging @ 12 seconds is the best option for rage generation, and your second charge CD includes the time remaining from the first.  

Your first charge; 20 sec CD.  Second charge used in 12 seconds, that gives the 2nd charge a 28 second CD, and your first charge has 8 seconds left on CD.  If you use the first charge again, 4 seconds after it finishes CD, your second charge will be off CD in 16 seconds and your first will be up again in 36 seconds.  After waiting 16 more seconds, you charge.  Your first CD will be up in 20 seconds, and your second CD will be up in 40 seconds.  The rest of the game you wish you spec'd Juggernaut.

This is difficult to re-read and maybe even to comprehend.  The summation is; you can't charge every 12 seconds indefinitely like Juggeranut.  Juggernaut wins in the long run, by long run I mean any game that lasts over 60 seconds.

View PostJacklin, on 25 November 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

Moreover, I feel like Double Time's relative weaknesses are more than offset by the fact that you get a considerable mobility/multitasking bump.

Lets talk facts;
You can only gain rage once every 12 seconds from charge.
If you charge twice in a row with double time, you will never see your second charge again (in an arena).
If you stagger charges of double time, the optimal usage is once every 12 seconds, and in the long run you lose out to Juggernaut.
After you use this gimmicky "mobility bump" your mobility is crippled compared to Juggernaut.
Double time has advantages over Juggernaut in short matches.
Juggernaut is better for mobility in any match over 60 seconds.

If mobility is an issue with Juggernaut, you need to investigate other areas of mobility that might be problematic.   Perhaps you are misusing Heroic leap or intervene.

Edited by Draedx, 25 November 2012 - 05:10 PM.


#13 Pritchard

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 06:40 PM

just gonna quote what i said in ask a glad forum after some math


Quote

double time is actually really bad because of the way it functions.  the way it is worded, it seems like if you use it every 10 seconds, you could actually have a 10s cd charge with constant uptime, but you can actually only get 3 charges off with a 10s cd, and then you have to wait 20s to charge again, or 30s to begin the 3 charge for 10s cd cycle over again.   i believe in a long fight double time if used completely properly could have more uptime, but for shorter matches, and using charge when you want to rather than part of a rotation (which you need to do to fully use double time effectively) juggernaut is definitely the winner.


adding to the rotation part, if any timing in the rotation of charge with double time is fucked up, juggernaut wins, and since it isn't practical to literally use your charge as part of a timed rotation in arena, juggernaut always wins.  to maximize charge usage with double time, you literally have to use charge every x amount of seconds.


bottom line, is after extensive math, as well as common sense, juggernaut is the clear winner for pvp as far as arms goes, or anything non gimmicky (mages blink).  but lets be real, if a mage blinks your charge stun they are just going to get lept to and put into a full shockwave with no out.

#14 Durial

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:24 PM

I haven't tried Jugger, and I don't plan too.

I've been using Double Time since the release of the talent, and after a while of using it, it becomes second nature when using it while not causing yourself problems.

Personally, I like, play with and will always play with Double Time if the talents are to always stay the same.

No theory-crafting.. just good old genuine opinion!

Edited by Durial, 25 November 2012 - 07:25 PM.


#15 methodman2

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:25 PM

double time is ten times better.. warriors dont use two charges at the start of a game.

#16 Chizzey

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 08:42 PM

i tried juggernaut today, usually playing with double time

i have to say that double time feels way more comfortable than juggernaut

#17 Cyanne

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:14 PM

View PostDurial, on 25 November 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

I haven't tried Jugger, and I don't plan too.

I've been using Double Time since the release of the talent, and after a while of using it, it becomes second nature when using it while not causing yourself problems.

Personally, I like, play with and will always play with Double Time if the talents are to always stay the same.

No theory-crafting.. just good old genuine opinion!

No offense, but how can you even have an opinion if you haven't tried the alternatives?

I prefer Juggernaut or Warbringer.
Double time seems beyond useless. You either stagger your charges and then you get overall less charges than juggernaut and the same number as warbringer w/o the added benefit of 3sec stuns that don't DR with anything. Or when you use 2 charges in quick succession you waddle around for 35-40 sec.

For the few situations where you'd need 2 quick gap closers in a row leap seems enough. But i would really like to hear what are the pros of double charge cause i can't really find any except in very fast games. And i'm not sarcastic or anything. I'm genuinely curious.

#18 Jacklin

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 09:21 PM

Draedz, seriously, look at it from the perspective me and the rest are trying to nudge you into: On paper, your conclusions are completely correct, and I, nor the rest haven't actually disagreed with your work.

But arena isn't laid out. The scenario that you provided is one of a really large bag of options -- it is not representative, at all.

I pick Double Time, because I believe that the added utility far outweighs the fact that every now and then I won't get rage (which isn't that huge of a problem, anyway). The way you word your replies almost makes it feel as if the game rules somehow change when switching between the two, but they do not -- all rest is equal. Now, whether you prefer Juggernaut or DT, the questions for me boils down to the simple fact that when I need mobility -- I have it, other than that I need to charge just as much as the warrior next to me using Juggernaut. It's not like with DT you suddenly need to charge twice as much or anything like that.

Appreciate your input either way, the point was to weigh the two options.

Edited by Jacklin, 25 November 2012 - 09:22 PM.

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#19 Draedx

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:40 PM

No problem, just thought I would clear up some ignorant statements regarding mobility with double time and how it requires more "brain" to use.

You obviously always have to play with what you prefer and what works for you.

#20 Pinka

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:49 PM

Depends on what you want.
Juggernaut has a increased rage income when used on cd. And it makes you able to do another charge within a 12 sec span.
Scales extra with the Bull Rush Glyph. Which results in more burst after your charge.

Double time lets you charge twice at first. But after you need quite some uptime to let your charges come back up.
Scales extra with the Blitz Glyph. Especially in rbg. Where you can stun serval people without the risk of dr.

Short uptime and switch play. Juggernaut.
Long uptime and cc play. Double Time.

Edited by Pinka, 27 November 2012 - 04:51 PM.

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