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My thoughts on why the warrior skill cap needs to be increased


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#1 Veev

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:04 PM

(I hope the AJ mods don't mind me linking to an off-site blog.  Please remove this thread if that's an issue, but I'll be replying to posts and comments here as well.)

A blog post I just wrote covering my thoughts on skill cap in arena, especially as it pertains to warriors and why it's a bigger concern for us than other classes: http://www.veevsvaul...ll-cap-dilemma/

#2 Covlol

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:23 PM

Great read!
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#3 Jaxington

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:27 PM

enjoyed reading this and i agree that they are taking an extremely long time to implement balance changes
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#4 Crankyboern

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:42 PM

exactly my thoughts, also i dont see warriors competing with any good wizards ever since S10 dropped ...

#5 Vexxius

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:44 PM

Quote

Removing gag order — without compensating for it in some other (higher skill cap) utility — may prove to be disastrous for warriors. It will lessen the gap between 1500 warriors and shadow priests, but it will widen the gap between 2400 warriors and shadow priests.

I agree completely.

Needlesstosay, for Blizzard, lessening the gap between ~1800-2000 rated Shadowpriests and Warriors is a "good strategy," in that appealing to the greatest audience is inarguably Blizzard's smartest move. It is unfortunate for those that play at higher ratings, however; it is extremely evident that Warriors playing at 2300+ will have a much more difficult time against casters come patch 5.1.

It is also very true that Warriors are extremely easy to play at the moment. "Bring back the S8 Warrior playstyle" (minus Shadowmourne, of course), is something I'll always say.

Quote

Lower the base damage of colossus smash by 5%, but allow it to do 15% bonus damage if used while the target is facing you — and lower the base damage of mortal strike by 5%, but allow it to do 15% bonus damage if used while behind the target.

I'm not a huge fan of positional requirements for abilities, but it's not a bad approach. There simply needs to be more that a "good" Warrior can do to effect the outcome of a match (rather than just zerg damage, similar to the mindset of ~2000 rated Warriors).

#6 cbit

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:38 PM

Nice post Veev. As a Shadowpriest, I agree that the current state of the Glyph of Gag Order is imbalanced, but I think somewhere in between the proposed 5.1 change and what it currently is would be a better solution (maybe only on Heroic Throw, for example).

View PostVexxius, on 12 November 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Needlesstosay, for Blizzard, lessening the gap between ~1800-2000 rated Shadowpriests and Warriors is a "good strategy," in that appealing to the greatest audience is inarguably Blizzard's smartest move.

Not to be too cynical, but unfortunately, this statement sums up my feelings about Blizzard's approach to balancing the game. I don't know exact numbers, but I think it's reasonable to assume that more people PvE than PvP (especially PvP at high levels). Thus, Blizzard, who like any other organization has limited resources, has to appeal to the greatest audience because, at the end of the day, it's more important for a big group of paying subscribers to be happy than a small group.

Another issue re: balance in Arenas is the homogenization of classes. I think this makes it harder to have balanced, high skill capped classes in the game, unless everything looks the exact same. I liked the WOTLK days where healers, for example, brought different types of dispels and you had to make a choice when selecting a healer.

Edited by cbit, 12 November 2012 - 08:39 PM.


#7 Covlol

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:40 PM

View PostVexxius, on 12 November 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

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I agree completely.

Needlesstosay, for Blizzard, lessening the gap between ~1800-2000 rated Shadowpriests and Warriors is a "good strategy," in that appealing to the greatest audience is inarguably Blizzard's smartest move. It is unfortunate for those that play at higher ratings, however; it is extremely evident that Warriors playing at 2300+ will have a much more difficult time against casters come patch 5.1.

It is also very true that Warriors are extremely easy to play at the moment. "Bring back the S8 Warrior playstyle" (minus Shadowmourne, of course), is something I'll always say.



I'm not a huge fan of positional requirements for abilities, but it's not a bad approach. There simply needs to be more that a "good" Warrior can do to effect the outcome of a match (rather than just zerg damage, similar to the mindset of ~2000 rated Warriors).

I completely agree with this, and i think the answer is in utility. For example some of the differences between a good warrior and a bad warrior is the use of abilities like Safegaurd and using Banners for more than just trying to swifty someone.
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#8 Thugjitsu

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:09 PM

Good stuff Veev!

Not only did you express your opinion and thoughts, but you kept it classy and backed up your opinions with solid reasoning.

Thank you for posting this...
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#9 Braindance

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:32 PM

Although I do like you both as a warrior and as a person (as much as one may know you just from your stream), I only partially agree. Warriors have always been a simple and straightforward class and I would like to see this playstyle remain as is with a few tweaks revolved around spell reflect and intervene (to me, the ideal would be to ping-pong around doing medium to high damage at all times (like early season 6 but without the arp).

My idea of increasing the skill cap is to bring spell reflect back to a 10 second cooldown, bring heroic leap to a 20 second cooldown as intercept was in WotLK and lower the damage a bit to compensate. Hitting from behind or from the front is not a good idea, given that it would be completely random, since as you already know, no one has a steady orientation in arena, especially melees; it's all about strafing around like a maniac.

Another point that would be great, is to grant intervene the ability to take spells, which I have already proposed multiple times over the years. Intervening to a target could also grant a buff where your next heroic leap would take the intervened target with you - that would also be quite fun.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#10 OneshotScott

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:55 PM

Can you make a graph of mage skill

Edited by sweaver, 12 November 2012 - 09:57 PM.


#11 Hynníx

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:17 PM

MOBILITY : my point of view of warriors mobility wise would be to make charge 15 seconds, ( change the talent double-timer from giving you 2 charges ) To simply making charge and intercept not sharing cooldown. Make intercept 20 seconds, remove heroic leap from the game and do not make warriors able to safegaurd out of novas AND not safegaurding banners. Do not get me wrong on this one but if safegaurding banners req skillful play then priests should be able to swap hp with pets.



View Postsweaver, on 12 November 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

Can you make a graph of mage skill
That shit is going downhill if its still there at all.

#12 Shadowtiger

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:19 PM

I think more stancedancing, and actually having to think what stance you sit in would higher the skill cap alot. Now you just see warriors sitting in def stance all game. -25% dmg taken passive is hard -.-

Personaly I liked the battle/zerker stance dance from TBC but that's probably just coz I loved playing warrior back then and that it never after realy felt anywhere near as awesome as it did back then.

Edit: I think its fine that reflect/intervene is usable in all stances, that just made for extra macros back in the days. But I think there should be some real offensive differense between the stances.

Edited by Shadowtiger, 12 November 2012 - 10:20 PM.


#13 averagepriestz

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:28 PM

I honestly do not think the solution to Warriors having a lower skillcap than for example a Mage or Shadow Priest is to buff their damage, if behind a target. We do not need more damage to targets already dying in a stun. Warriors are already the best melee class out there at the moment, their utility is through the roof this season. There are plenty of BG's where Warriors coupled with a Mage or an Enhance Shaman are completly unstoppable, if played by the right players.

I do agree something could be done, but so far, this season along with season 9 is probably the best that Warriors ever had? And you are suggesting more damage, if the Warrior manages to spin his mouse 360, moving through his opponent, while hammering his Mortal Strike key.

Gag order is completly silly, there is no way Warriors should keep this. If you manage to get away from a Warrior in todays game, you should have the chance to get a cast off. Currently it is impossible to not only root and fear them, but if you find a window where they have a 5 second cooldown on Charge or Heroic Leap, you find yourself Reflected or silenced from Gag Order.

I remember what a good Warrior could do, and still can, it is all about positioning, being fast at peeling and putting out pressure when needed, while the gap has gotten a lot closer, I really hope you can propose some other changes, that are not an increase in damage as your solution.

#14 Braindance

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:28 PM

View PostShadowtiger, on 12 November 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

I think more stancedancing, and actually having to think what stance you sit in would higher the skill cap alot. Now you just see warriors sitting in def stance all game. -25% dmg taken passive is hard -.-

Personaly I liked the battle/zerker stance dance from TBC but that's probably just coz I loved playing warrior back then and that it never after realy felt anywhere near as awesome as it did back then.

Edit: I think its fine that reflect/intervene is usable in all stances, that just made for extra macros back in the days. But I think there should be some real offensive differense between the stances.
Awesome in bc? Only reason to go to battle stance was for an occasional overpower or a rend on rogues once in a blue moon. Most of the time you were in zeker stance pressing the amazing amount of 2 dps buttons - ms and ww. Oh and hamstrings to kill totems when it did 40 dmg per hamstring

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#15 Fawxfighter2013

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:51 PM

My thoughts on the gag order glyph

Keep both silences and just make pummel a 30 second cd or something

This glyph basically turns it into a cs....and this was by FAR the best way for me to stop casters from just blowing up my healer

15 seconds is op I admit and yeah we have shock wave but I really hope with mage nerfs and whatnot that I do not have to just watch my partners die in a 3 second cc (like s11)

#16 hoodrych

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:51 PM

View Postaveragepriestz, on 12 November 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

I remember what a good Warrior could do, and still can, it is all about positioning, being fast at peeling and putting out pressure when needed

Pretty much. Removing something as ridiculous as Gag Order is going to make Wizards insane. What does that say? That Warriors need to make a Wizard control their character 20% of the game, just to have a chance? Warriors have utility. It's not Warriors that need fixing, it's Wizards.

#17 Chizzey

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:04 PM

position requirements i hated them as a rogue due to internet connection and dont bring them in for a warrior


agree with everything except the positional part

and also, hoodrych brought that up combining gag order with rude interruption (pummel doesnt silence anymore, however horoic throw does, and pummel which is used correctly will buff your damage for 6% for 15 seconds)

#18 Allfinete

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:31 PM

Great read, looking forward for more blogs from you.

#19 KILLATON

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:44 PM

Just wont be as fun/good as it was in wotlk.

So im changing class :)!
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#20 averagepriestz

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:01 AM

View PostFawxfighter2013, on 12 November 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

My thoughts on the gag order glyph

Keep both silences and just make pummel a 30 second cd or something

This glyph basically turns it into a cs....and this was by FAR the best way for me to stop casters from just blowing up my healer

15 seconds is op I admit and yeah we have shock wave but I really hope with mage nerfs and whatnot that I do not have to just watch my partners die in a 3 second cc (like s11)

Warriors, just like any other melee class should be balanced around the uptime they have while they are in melee range of their target. That is how the game should be balanced. Getting away from a melee should reward you, to get off your damage / heals or CC. We do not need more blanket silences or crowd control, but less of them. I remember when melee tried to stay within deadzones of Hunters, and Hunters on the other hand had to utilize their cooldowns when they were able to slow and gain a distance. Casters could try to hug the Hunter, to get some breathing room and space to be healed up, instead of having to stay 50 yards away. I miss classes feeling like a ranged or melee. When a melee connected on you, you had to get him off you, or you would simply die. Today it does not matter if you are in melee range or not, he will still be able to CC you, slow you or damage you. Their priority should be to stick on their target or peel for their healer, not to sit in roots and still keep you locked out for 15 seconds 20 yards away from you.

I liked that I had to play a completly different game when a melee was training me. If I could not stun him or get him peeled, I had to play extremly defensive, trying to juke his overpower or get serverly punished for it, having to pop my shieldwall as a result. Even though melee cleaves had a few too many interrupts, I would rather blame it on the overall balance of the game than melee stacking. (Implement healer/melee/ranged 3v3 comps only for example).

View Posthoodrych, on 12 November 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

Pretty much. Removing something as ridiculous as Gag Order is going to make Wizards insane. What does that say? That Warriors need to make a Wizard control their character 20% of the game, just to have a chance? Warriors have utility. It's not Warriors that need fixing, it's Wizards.

Indeed, I've said many times that Warriors should be a role model as to how classes should be balanced. Remember how much rage used to matter, and uptime? How important a good intervene on a Cheap Shot was? Positioning was king. Having your ranged partner in the middle of the room, you intervening to him and charging onwards to the enemy, making you cover the entire arena if played well within seconds. When they were rooted, they were rooted and you had to rely on your teammates to minimize damage taken untill you were free.

Mages and Warlocks specifically always had too much instant CC, and I think it is Blizzards way of dealing with how melee cleaves have always been able to train casters (*herp* lets just add some more CC so the mage can peel for himself). This game would be so much better, probably also a bit more boring, if you were not able to recieve or deal critical strikes. Direct healing should be lowered and more absorbs and CD's like Ironbark should make up for a larger amount. That way, the overall skillcap would be raised aswell, having to anticipate damage, just like forcing Barkskin on the druid then switching off, saving your CD's but making the Druid waste his defensive CD. DR's should be collapsed into larger categories so Mages and Warlocks can't chain fear into sheeps. Cyclone and Entangling Roots should share DR, so Cyclone would be preferred on Casters and Roots on Melee, meanwhile the Melee should not be able to silence and still do 50% of his job inside the roots, which they currently can. Root a Ret Paladin (asuming he can't dispel himself, which he shouldn't be able to) and he starts throwing off-heals for 120k around.




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