76 replies to this topic

[Hyuru]

Zareli, on 04 December 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

At the top :3 #1

way to bump an old thread, where numbers are probably way off, would be nice if someone made an updated version of this thread though.

Edited by Hyuru, 05 December 2012 - 08:42 AM.

[Mugaro]

Hyuru, on 05 December 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

way to bump an old thread, where numbers are probably way off, would be nice if someone made an updated version of this thread though.

Updated version
Mage - 50%
Priest - 20%
shaman - 10%

you fill in the rest

[Ctuhlu]

affix, on 05 December 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

I don't think you can say that this is true with any significant amount of confidence.  Comp diversity is an extremely complex thing, influenced by more factors than you can realistically track.  Just like we don't see just one kind of wizard or melee cleave, we likely wouldn't see one kind of melee/caster/healer.


What happens to specs like Fire, Disc, Arcane, and pretty much every kind of Warlock when you allow melee cleaves?  They get trounced.  It goes both ways.  We don't really know to what degree comp diversity is suppressed with/without enforcing melee/caster/healer.


I agree, but you're making a lot of assumptions that I don't think are necessarily true.

My assumptions are based on the fact that the traditionally "fringe" specs (Moonkin, Ele, Enhance, Arcane, Fire, Ret) HAVE had representation in certain seasons but it has pretty much always been as part of a wizard or melee cleave. They just don't have the tools that Warriors, Frost Mages, Warlocks, Rogues of pre-S12 have -- so they need to fill up these holes in their toolset by partnering with the specs that don't have the same problem.

If you enforce M/C/H I think these specs and probably every hybrid aside from Shadow Priests would largely disappear from competitive arena. I never said that one grandmaster MCH comp would surface -- that's ridiculous. People play a wide variety of classes so just because RLS might be the best MCH in our hypothetical scenario, it wouldn't mean mages disappear because a lot of good players play mages and they would be fine running RMP or WMP or whathaveyou. But to me MCH would totally fuck with comp diversity. What would a ret paladin run under that system? Ret/Moonkin/Healer? No, it would HAVE to be Ret/Warlock or Ret/Mage (and even those would be shit). A ret paladin would not benefit from partnering with the third or fourth caster on the depth chart -- they would naturally gravitate toward the best casters. This has historically been mages and warlocks, and that's why I think enforcing MCH would have a negative impact on this game's fun factor for about 50% of the games classes. And to be honest WoW arena can't afford to lose any more fun factor at this point.

Edited by Ctuhlu, 05 December 2012 - 09:29 PM.

[Pandalol]

I have a very hard time believing you still play this game Cthulu.

[affix]

Ctuhlu, on 05 December 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

My assumptions are based on the fact that the traditionally "fringe" specs (Moonkin, Ele, Enhance, Arcane, Fire, Ret) HAVE had representation in certain seasons but it has pretty much always been as part of a wizard or melee cleave.  They just don't have the tools that Warriors, Frost Mages, Warlocks, Rogues of pre-S12 have -- so they need to fill up these holes in their toolset by partnering with the specs that don't have the same problem.

I think that generally speaking they're just plain inferior to other casters - it's not really an issue of synergy with melee.  But, when coupled with another caster, they're propped up by some sort of gimmick.  In LSD, for example, the non-stacking CC DRs and solar beam made it a comp that was impossible to kill and impossible not to get CC'd against.  If they couldn't play with other casters, they could finally get the buffs needed to stand on their own with a melee.

Quote

If you enforce M/C/H I think these specs and probably every hybrid aside from Shadow Priests would largely disappear from competitive arena. I never said that one grandmaster MCH comp would surface -- that's ridiculous. People play a wide variety of classes so just because RLS might be the best MCH in our hypothetical scenario, it wouldn't mean mages disappear because a lot of good players play mages and they would be fine running RMP or WMP or whathaveyou. But to me MCH would totally fuck with comp diversity. What would a ret paladin run under that system? Ret/Moonkin/Healer? No, it would HAVE to be Ret/Warlock or Ret/Mage (and even those would be shit). A ret paladin would not benefit from partnering with the third or fourth caster on the depth chart -- they would naturally gravitate toward the best casters. This has historically been mages and warlocks, and that's why I think enforcing MCH would have a negative impact on this game's fun factor for about 50% of the games classes. And to be honest WoW arena can't afford to lose any more fun factor at this point.

Good points!  I'm still not convinced that we know what the net effect of comp diversity would be.  Most of those fringe specs are being marginalized already.

[Phillol]

Ctuhlu, on 05 December 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

My assumptions are based on the fact that the traditionally "fringe" specs (Moonkin, Ele, Enhance, Arcane, Fire, Ret) HAVE had representation in certain seasons but it has pretty much always been as part of a wizard or melee cleave. They just don't have the tools that Warriors, Frost Mages, Warlocks, Rogues of pre-S12 have -- so they need to fill up these holes in their toolset by partnering with the specs that don't have the same problem.

If you enforce M/C/H I think these specs and probably every hybrid aside from Shadow Priests would largely disappear from competitive arena. I never said that one grandmaster MCH comp would surface -- that's ridiculous. People play a wide variety of classes so just because RLS might be the best MCH in our hypothetical scenario, it wouldn't mean mages disappear because a lot of good players play mages and they would be fine running RMP or WMP or whathaveyou. But to me MCH would totally fuck with comp diversity. What would a ret paladin run under that system? Ret/Moonkin/Healer? No, it would HAVE to be Ret/Warlock or Ret/Mage (and even those would be shit). A ret paladin would not benefit from partnering with the third or fourth caster on the depth chart -- they would naturally gravitate toward the best casters. This has historically been mages and warlocks, and that's why I think enforcing MCH would have a negative impact on this game's fun factor for about 50% of the games classes. And to be honest WoW arena can't afford to lose any more fun factor at this point.

stop




just stop and go back to GW2

Edited by Phillol, 06 December 2012 - 12:25 AM.

[Peacesells]

Mugaro, on 05 December 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

Updated version
Mage - 50%
Priest - 20%
shaman - 10%

you fill in the rest

Godcomp 85%, Kitty cleave 15%

Praise the wizards!

[Djandawg]

You don't need to post half page analysis on comp diversity. It should be trivial to everyone that arena comps are mostly formed with classes that either one-shot someone or are very compatible with one-shot classes. The classes not falling under those categories are not preferred, plus majority of those are easily killable.
Once they fix broken classes and buff severely underpowered ones, more classes will be able to participate high rated arenas.

[averagepriestz]

Phillol, on 06 December 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

stop




just stop and go back to GW2

Why should he stop posting? It was a highly constructive post and he was right?

[Xandyn]

averagepriestz, on 06 December 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

Why should he stop posting? It was a highly constructive post and he was right?

lol

[fant0m8]

What happens to Hunters when you force Melee/Caster/Healer? Are they only allowed to play with Warriors/Rogues/DKs? I'm sure everyone enjoys THOSE comps. /s


The problem with Hunters is that they're a hybrid. Physical damage + ranged. If you pair them with a melee you miss out on what a traditional caster brings to a comp (long duration 0 cooldown CC or offheals in the case of a hybrid) in exchange for basically playing a melee cleave with a bit more flexibility/off target control.

If you pair them with a caster then you miss out on what a traditional melee brings to the table (stronger stuns/interrupts/snares).

Pretty much every Hunter comp falls halfway in between balanced and a cleave. If you make cleaves non-viable, it would be extremely hard to actually keep Hunters useful or well-represented.

[Ctuhlu]

affix, on 05 December 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

I think that generally speaking they're just plain inferior to other casters - it's not really an issue of synergy with melee.  But, when coupled with another caster, they're propped up by some sort of gimmick.  In LSD, for example, the non-stacking CC DRs and solar beam made it a comp that was impossible to kill and impossible not to get CC'd against.  If they couldn't play with other casters, they could finally get the buffs needed to stand on their own with a melee.

You're completely right about that. Buffing them to stand on their own with melee would be a great solution -- but it's Blizzard.

[methodman2]

fant0m8, on 06 December 2012 - 03:21 AM, said:

What happens to Hunters when you force Melee/Caster/Healer? Are they only allowed to play with Warriors/Rogues/DKs? I'm sure everyone enjoys THOSE comps. /s


The problem with Hunters is that they're a hybrid. Physical damage + ranged. If you pair them with a melee you miss out on what a traditional caster brings to a comp (long duration 0 cooldown CC or offheals in the case of a hybrid) in exchange for basically playing a melee cleave with a bit more flexibility/off target control.

If you pair them with a caster then you miss out on what a traditional melee brings to the table (stronger stuns/interrupts/snares).

Pretty much every Hunter comp falls halfway in between balanced and a cleave. If you make cleaves non-viable, it would be extremely hard to actually keep Hunters useful or well-represented.

i always preferred watching hunters with casters e.g lock hunter druid in s8. they should be classed as a meele since after all they are a ranged meele class

[Hackattack3]

This site might be legit:  http://www.worldofwa...0-0--0-0-0.html

The numbers look like what you expect and last updated Dec. 6th.  









Edit  copy/paste looked like shit

Edited by Hackattack3, 06 December 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[Hackattack3]

From the same link provided above, the most popular 3vs3 comps above 2.2k:

1.  war/bmhunter/hpal 6.3%
2.  war/feral/hpal 2.99%
3.  spriest/mage/rdruid 2.68%
4.  war/mage/hpal  2.52%
5.  war/mage/rsham  2.36%
6.  spriest/mage/rsham  2.36%
7.  war/mage/rdruid 2.05%

no other comps above 2% representation.


Edit:  posting description below from the website about how to interpret the stats:


How should I understand those stats ?

Let's discuss about PvP Players representation for instance.
You can’t use the representation % of players above 2200 rating to know whether a class is overpowered or not, because some classes are globally underplayed because they seem to be less fun. That does NOT mean that they are underpowered.

Nevertheless, you can use our new global stats to know, for instance, if a class is overpowered or underpowered.
Indeed, if there are 20% of druids above 2200 rating, but if globally they are 30% of players, they are UNDERrepresented above 2200 rating, which could mean that they are underpowered in PvP. If there are 20% of druids above 2200 rating, but if globally they are 10% of players, in that case, they are OVERrepresented above 2200 rating, which could mean that they are OVERpowered in PvP.
Of couse, you use the same reasoning for pve players, professions, races etc ...

Edited by Hackattack3, 06 December 2012 - 04:49 PM.

[Hackattack3]

i want to apologize to the mods for the triple post but this site is fantastic and the data looks very similar to what people have been saying here for weeks.  If you want to use the websites measure for "overpowered" comparing % global representation vs % above 2.2k.  Here is what the numbers would looke like:



Top tier (%2.2k more than 3 times higher than %global, 3:1 ratio)
1. arms war
2. frost mage
3. resto shammy

Upper tier (%2.2k more than 2 times higher than %global, 2:1 ratio)
4.  hpal

Slightly over-represented (%2.2k > %gloal, between 2:1 and 1:1 ratio)

5. rdruid
6. spriest
7. BM hunter
8. feral druid
9.  destro lock
10. demon lock
11. unholy dk


Which class is perfectly balanced where %global = %2.2k?  disc priests.


Edit:  if you want a good lolz, look up %2.2k for 3s only, you will see arms war, frost mage, hpal, and rsham miles past everyone else.

Edited by Hackattack3, 06 December 2012 - 05:02 PM.

[Raak]

methodman2, on 06 December 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

ranged meele class