76 replies to this topic

[WildeHilde]

So true. I love watching WoW tournaments, but seeing caster cleave vs. caster cleave makes me turn them off usually. The most entertaining matches I have seen were Orangemarmalade's RMP vs. Beastcleave. Nothing was as entertaining with the exception of some RMP mirrors.

[Nightmonkey]

Let us not forget that when we refer to Melee/Caster/Healer, that comp almost always had a Warrior or Rogue in it.

In Wrath we started to see some DK/caster comps, but I don't feel like they were ever as prolific as WLD or RLS.  I feel like Warriors and Hunters are two classes that have historically been really overpowered or not very good at all.

Monks were definitely a huge flop.  The only spec I've seen actually do anything good at all was a healer.  The tanks are pretty much the worst and the only time I've seen the DPS they're doing really bad damage.  Can't say I'm upset they suck though.

[Macleodlol]

saffie, on 27 October 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

My point exactly.

Also what blizzard does that is completely wrong is, unlike other games, they don't take the tournements/highest rated playerbase to consideration when they try to even fix the pvp.

Dota is a pretty balanced game overall but the devs make tournements and actually watch them and see what is too popular in the scene, which items/heroes are being picked the most and which items/heroes are untouched, and then soon after that they tweak it a little and make changes, not huge ones but small buffs to the underplayed ones and small nerfs to the overplayed ones. They don't listen to the new players whining that a pub stomper hero is too powerful and nerf it.

They do this because how a competative game should be is to see how the best play it, fix the game according to their games and those who are lower should watch those people and try to play like they do and get at their level, fixing the game to please the casual players just because they are whining is counter productive, then you get those 1500 rated people whining about the complete wrong thing and blizzard giving it to them making them more spoiled and less likely to follow the higher rated players and try to be like them. But even the lower rated people wont be happy because of these changes, its so counter productive.

This is probably very obvious to you guys but I don't see how blizzard, who made most likely the best esport our there, sc2, can be so stupid. For example now they are nerfing chaos bolt to do %25 less damage and be a dot that ticks for 3 seconds, you look at these stats here and see that warlocks are low tier among with rogues and monks, yet they don't check aj they don't even check ladders they just go to the pvp forums and listen to thousands of morons who have no idea to play and whine that chaos bolt hit them too much.

DO NOT. i repeat DO NOT compare WoW to DoTA

[Macleodlol]

And never count PHDK out of this race.. playing it right now. easily one of the best comps with a good team.

[Wallirik]

Can't believe some people actually complain about wizard cleaves. Imo fighting drooling melee cleaves is about a billion times worse than fighting wizards.

Would even rather face wizards than i'd face melee/caster/healer, because then i don't have to deal with some fucking mentally challenged warrior doing random things, but still preventing me doing anything proper.

[Nightmonkey]

Wallirik, on 27 October 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

Can't believe some people actually complain about wizard cleaves. Imo fighting drooling melee cleaves is about a billion times worse than fighting wizards.

Would even rather face wizards than i'd face melee/caster/healer, because then i don't have to deal with some fucking mentally challenged warrior doing random things, but still preventing me doing anything proper.

If he's preventing you from doing anything proper, what's so mentally challenged about that?

Of course you never want to see melee classes, you're a Warlock.

[Regent]

Macleodlol, on 27 October 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

DO NOT. i repeat DO NOT compare WoW to DoTA

Yeah, we wouldn't want WoW to accidentally become a successful competitive game...

[Ctuhlu]

The problem with enforcing melee/caster/healer is that it kills comp diversity. If MCH was the norm it would always be the best caster and the best melee used in any comp. Every comp would have a mage or a warlock, and a warrior or a rogue. Historically these classes have always been strong (and if they are weak it is always a temporary affliction). Melee cleaves and caster cleaves allow for underpowered specs to have a chance in that they can use the strong melee class on their team to shore up certain weaknesses in their spec.

What I mean to say is that if you move the game toward melee caster healer, what happens to specs like Balance Druids, DPS shamans, monks, etc -- why would you run Enhance/Mage/Healer when you could run Warrior/Mage/Healer? Essentially the game would boil down to two or three strong comps while spec representation takes a huge nosedive. Hell that's why the golden era of arena in BC was always dominated by RLS, WLD, and RMP.

I'm not saying cleaves are a good thing but it's not as simple as just saying "fuck cleaves only MCH should be allowed".

[Wallirik]

Nightmonkey, on 27 October 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

If he's preventing you from doing anything proper, what's so mentally challenged about that?

Of course you never want to see melee classes, you're a Warlock.

What i meant was, even an absolutely terrible warrior can prevent me from doing a lot of things, only because of his class.
While most other classes actually take effort to prevent the things i can do.

[gangstalicious]

Macleodlol, on 27 October 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

DO NOT. i repeat DO NOT compare WoW to DoTA

he compared balancing gameplay when it is played at its best rather than balancing around 1500 players.

[WildeHilde]

Actually there were a lot of comps around that worked well within the melee/ranged/healer aside from the usual ones. PHD, Beastcleave, RPD, RPS, Dancing with the Stars, FMP...

The problem with most caster comps is that they simply have to survive the enemy (non-caster cleave) setup for some time and will win for sure. This makes boring games, because caster teams traditionally are too efficient, especially in the later seasons of the addons. They need more high risk/high reward mechanics intergrated and less staying power.

[ROKMODE]

Melee caster healer generally shits on hybrids. Obviously, this is not always the case, but if you look at a spec like elemental, it almost never works very well with melee classes to such an extent that it's almost always better to pack it up and reroll mage/lock or just play wiz cleave.


I'm biased here, but I definitely side with melee cleaves being worse to fight than wizard cleaves by far. Whenever, I fight a melee cleave, it always feels like a complete derpfest.

Edited by ROKMODE, 27 October 2012 - 08:31 PM.

[phishy]

the problem with wizard and cleave comps is that it creates so many counters. also a main reason why triple dps is so bad for arena. too much of the same thing creates frustrating games that arent winnable no matter how well you play it

Edited by phishy, 27 October 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[Mylez]

Nightmonkey, on 27 October 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

If he's preventing you from doing anything proper, what's so mentally challenged about that?

Because missing every single pummel is almost equally effective as actually pummeling casts, couple this with a 20s cd aoe stun, multiple spell reflects, ranged silence on a 30s cd, and ministuns from charge all pressed at completely random intervals and there is little you can do against a warrior as a caster.

[Zareli]

Regent, on 24 October 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

Where is pally KFC?!?!

At the top :3 #1

[drakuru]

WildeHilde, on 27 October 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

Actually there were a lot of comps around that worked well within the melee/ranged/healer aside from the usual ones. PHD, Beastcleave, RPD, RPS, Dancing with the Stars, FMP...

The problem with most caster comps is that they simply have to survive the enemy (non-caster cleave) setup for some time and will win for sure. This makes boring games, because caster teams traditionally are too efficient, especially in the later seasons of the addons. They need more high risk/high reward mechanics intergrated and less staying power.

That mb fits to kfc but not for a team with at least 1 melee in it.
The team with more melees will burn the opposite healer's mana so fast.
You have to make fast pressure to force fast cooldowns.

[Smir]

WildeHilde, on 24 October 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

The following numbers are based on the 50 highest ranked teams of each US battlegroup. Not the best choice to make the statistics of, but the numbers give a pretty clear result. The source of the information is from Disquette written in the Elitist Jerks Benefactors Bar. The methodology is explained in the official US forums.

Arena representation based on class
warrior 19.93% 353
hunter 16.32% 289
paladin 13.61% 241
druid 12.37% 219
shaman 11.58% 205
mage 9.09% 161
priest 8.13% 144
dk 3.39% 60
warlock 3.39% 60
rogue 1.36% 24
monk 0.85% 15
Total 100% 1771

Top 10 arena comps in 3v3
1. Warrior Paladin Hunter
2. Warrior Hunter Druid
3. Warrior Paladin Death Knight
4. Priest Mage Druid
5. Warrior Paladin Druid
6. Warrior Hunter Shaman
7. Warrior Mage Druid
8. Warrior Death Knight Druid
9. Warrior Paladin Mage
10. Warrior Paladin Priest

4th most played team has to be a typo, you wrote warrior completly wrong



only read a few parts of last side and i have to say, wizardcleave faceoffs (probably because i am a warlock) were the games i enjoy the most to watch after rmp vs wld or rmp mirrors
but now i can not watch any wow tournament, the last one in shanghai was horrible to watch, but that was probably also because of horrible ui paired with horrible spectator movement/skills, it had nothing to do with the state of the game, you just didnt see anything

Edited by Smir, 04 December 2012 - 11:15 PM.

[affix]

Ctuhlu, on 27 October 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

The problem with enforcing melee/caster/healer is that it kills comp diversity. If MCH was the norm it would always be the best caster and the best melee used in any comp.

I don't think you can say that this is true with any significant amount of confidence.  Comp diversity is an extremely complex thing, influenced by more factors than you can realistically track.  Just like we don't see just one kind of wizard or melee cleave, we likely wouldn't see one kind of melee/caster/healer.

Quote

What I mean to say is that if you move the game toward melee caster healer, what happens to specs like Balance Druids, DPS shamans, monks, etc -- why would you run Enhance/Mage/Healer when you could run Warrior/Mage/Healer? Essentially the game would boil down to two or three strong comps while spec representation takes a huge nosedive. Hell that's why the golden era of arena in BC was always dominated by RLS, WLD, and RMP.

What happens to specs like Fire, Disc, Arcane, and pretty much every kind of Warlock when you allow melee cleaves?  They get trounced.  It goes both ways.  We don't really know to what degree comp diversity is suppressed with/without enforcing melee/caster/healer.

Quote

I'm not saying cleaves are a good thing but it's not as simple as just saying "fuck cleaves only MCH should be allowed".

I agree, but you're making a lot of assumptions that I don't think are necessarily true.

[djp771133]

Smir, on 04 December 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

4th most played team has to be a typo, you wrote warrior completly wrong



only read a few parts of last side and i have to say, wizardcleave faceoffs (probably because i am a warlock) were the games i enjoy the most to watch after rmp vs wld or rmp mirrors
but now i can not watch any wow tournament, the last one in shanghai was horrible to watch, but that was probably also because of horrible ui paired with horrible spectator movement/skills, it had nothing to do with the state of the game, you just didnt see anything

favorite games to watch is wizcleave faceoffs???? gtfo.  Also, spriest/mage/x is a extremely strong comp that counters most melee cleaves... soooo I don't see your point there.

[Smir]

djp771133, on 05 December 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

favorite games to watch is wizcleave faceoffs???? gtfo.  Also, spriest/mage/x is a extremely strong comp that counters most melee cleaves... soooo I don't see your point there.

not is
were
mls vs lsd was a hell of a tactical game, people didnt see it but when the best mls played the best lsds the whole positioning and setup for a kill were awesome to follow
back at s8 wizcleave vs wizcleave was more entertaining/tactical than rmp mirrors (where 1 team just ran into the other team and tried to zerg down faster)
people will see it diffrent but i think they only saw the 10 minute game where at the end some1 died pretty fast, the 10 minutes befor were still pretty "risky" for ever team, 1 wrong step could ruin the whole 7 minutes of perfect positioning
but i am not talking about now, now i cant stand watching any tournament in wow, way too random