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#41 Nadagast

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:49 PM

I don't mean to pick on you, but I feel like the arguments you're presenting against resil, Hidx, are very anecdotal and not ones that I tend to appreciate.  Yes, you can tell us a story where you get overkilled by 200k, and the resil doesn't matter.  However in most situations, it's all about the margin.  13% less strain on your healer, less cooldowns popped during the entire game (by you AND your healer), and less damage taken lets you position more aggressively.

I'm not saying that I know resil is better for punch Monks right now, I'm just trying to express my dislike of this particular argument.  It's way too easy to tell yourself a story about how taking 13% less damage doesn't matter, (and 5% damage does?) and I think the ease with which we players tell ourselves this hurts the overall level of play in arena.

If you had a talent choice between +6% damage and -15% damage taken, which would you take?

Edited by Nadagast, 12 November 2012 - 11:50 PM.


#42 hid

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:00 AM

I completely agree, and I also hate anecdotal evidence. It's just hard to explain to someone who hasn't played the class without bringing up (stupid) examples, and remember I'm not only speaking to you here, I'm speaking to everyone who reads the forum. I tried my best to explain to you from my POV (ofc it's still subjective, but so is everything in wow regarding strategies/gearing/positioning) and included a bad example. I feel you get to hung up on that though, that example wasn't the only thing I said to explain my reasoning for going for the damage over resil. I'm fully aware that for all the other classes resil is by far the best choice. Monks are the exception atm because we have ZERO on-demand burst, absolutely zero.

What I was trying to say is that in a talent choice between +6% dmg or -15% dmg, I would take the +6% dmg in my current comp. It's on the verge of me picking the DR, if it was 6% vs 12.5% (like it actually is) then there would be no question at all, 6% vs 15% is approaching me getting the damage reduction instead. 20% DR I'd take right away.

Edited by hid, 13 November 2012 - 02:01 AM.


#43 hid

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:07 AM

The anecdotal "evidence" wasn't really so anecdotal btw (I did explain it poorly, though). Pretty much every single time I die it's by a huge overkill (and by overkill I mean there being like 5+ seconds left until I'd even have a chance to get healed because of cc, and usually in the first few seconds of a stun on me), it's not one of these fallacies where I go "this one time I died to a 200k overkill so gearing defensively OBVIOUSLY doesn't work!", it happens pretty much on every single death I have.

Why more resil wouldn't help here I already explained in my first post - it's simply how monk cds work, we're unkillable outside of stuns while we have CDs ready, and when they are down we just die.

I have no problems surviving for the first ~1-1.5 minutes (although in return for them training me we never get any counterpressure), and then as soon as CDs run out I just drop dead, they don't even need to have big CDs ready.

There is no other way to explain this to someone who hasn't played the class, there's no other class/comp that you can have experience from to relate to it, it's a completely new thing in wow. The closest thing to a monk without cds is a rogue without any cds, without feint. This is why I used anecdotal examples over a more fact-based approach. The monk class hasn't been figured out enough yet for there to really be any hard facts about how to play it.


What it all comes down to in the end is either you trust me on my word (and quick/rough explanations), and trust in my ability to make these calls - or you don't (you probably shouldn't since you don't know me and don't know how well I know the game, but I'm just saying. :).) These posts are all just my views on the monk class and how it should be played and I can't really provide proof for everything I say (I can provide good arguments though, if you ask specific questions. But when just responding to general questions I will not go into too much detail for obvious reasons.)

I always appreciate having someone to theorycraft with, it's one of the things I enjoy most in this game.

Edited by hid, 13 November 2012 - 02:18 AM.


#44 aldreya

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:36 AM

From mmo-champion: "Spear hand Strike now costs 10 energy, down from 30."

Nice change.

Reading your post Hidx, i think u are very positive about the future of the WW in arenas for 5.1. I´d like to be wrong but we dont even be the third best melee. I dont understand why we dont have the brewmaster stance as unholy and frost dks have access to Blood presence, or warrior to defensive stance.

It would be nice we could have that stance or the "stun inmunity" that MW have.

#45 Jorge

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:37 AM

WW monks are pretty thrashy atm, but the problem isn't the spell kit its the way damage is applied, if you look at the way the "good" classes do damage it's all burst, we may do the same damage they do but we just simply cant burst anything down.

#46 Klonken

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:51 PM

is it just me or does it feel like touch of karma is really clunky tho with the chi cost?:/ i hate having a kitty cleave on me (for example) or any other heavy melee cleave when i get out of a stun and i dont have chi to use it ..

#47 Gabbit

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:42 PM

Touch of karma and the freedom both shouldn't cost chi imo.
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#48 Zerocare

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:54 AM

I wouldn't mind if that bloody cat stopped breaking my cc.
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#49 Eissi

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 07:43 AM

View PostKlonken, on 23 November 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

is it just me or does it feel like touch of karma is really clunky tho with the chi cost?:/ i hate having a kitty cleave on me (for example) or any other heavy melee cleave when i get out of a stun and i dont have chi to use it ..

I'm actually using a macro that uses the chi-restore talent and then touch of karma just because of this. The thing that buggers me the most about touch of karma is the facing requirement. One or two times I've died because of it.

#50 Knarox

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:44 AM

Thanks for an informative thread. I actually enjoyed reading all of the input.
"Oh yeah, well I've had about enough of morons and half wits, dolts, dunces, dullards and dumbbells... and you, you chowder-head yokel, you blithering hayseed. You've had enough of me?"

#51 Nadagast

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:52 PM

View Posthid, on 13 November 2012 - 02:07 AM, said:

The anecdotal "evidence" wasn't really so anecdotal btw (I did explain it poorly, though). Pretty much every single time I die it's by a huge overkill (and by overkill I mean there being like 5+ seconds left until I'd even have a chance to get healed because of cc, and usually in the first few seconds of a stun on me), it's not one of these fallacies where I go "this one time I died to a 200k overkill so gearing defensively OBVIOUSLY doesn't work!", it happens pretty much on every single death I have.

Why more resil wouldn't help here I already explained in my first post - it's simply how monk cds work, we're unkillable outside of stuns while we have CDs ready, and when they are down we just die.

I have no problems surviving for the first ~1-1.5 minutes (although in return for them training me we never get any counterpressure), and then as soon as CDs run out I just drop dead, they don't even need to have big CDs ready.

There is no other way to explain this to someone who hasn't played the class, there's no other class/comp that you can have experience from to relate to it, it's a completely new thing in wow. The closest thing to a monk without cds is a rogue without any cds, without feint. This is why I used anecdotal examples over a more fact-based approach. The monk class hasn't been figured out enough yet for there to really be any hard facts about how to play it.


What it all comes down to in the end is either you trust me on my word (and quick/rough explanations), and trust in my ability to make these calls - or you don't (you probably shouldn't since you don't know me and don't know how well I know the game, but I'm just saying. :).) These posts are all just my views on the monk class and how it should be played and I can't really provide proof for everything I say (I can provide good arguments though, if you ask specific questions. But when just responding to general questions I will not go into too much detail for obvious reasons.)

I always appreciate having someone to theorycraft with, it's one of the things I enjoy most in this game.

I'm curious: have you considered going Orc and using stun duration reduction metagem?  That combined with full resil might give you a good setup for surviving, as well as adding quite a bit to your burst with Blood Fury.  I realize that losing WotF would be pretty sucky, but this might be worth a shot?

Also, any suggestions on professions?  Currently I'm thinking of going Engineering/BS.  I am also considering Tailoring/Engineering though.  Maybe if I use PvP proc trinket with tailoring enchant, Engineering agi glove boost, and a 10stack Tigereye I can have significant burst, and good sustained damage?  I kinda like BS for the resil though...  hm.

#52 hid

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:57 AM

View PostNadagast, on 26 November 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

I'm curious: have you considered going Orc and using stun duration reduction metagem?  That combined with full resil might give you a good setup for surviving, as well as adding quite a bit to your burst with Blood Fury.  I realize that losing WotF would be pretty sucky, but this might be worth a shot?

Also, any suggestions on professions?  Currently I'm thinking of going Engineering/BS.  I am also considering Tailoring/Engineering though.  Maybe if I use PvP proc trinket with tailoring enchant, Engineering agi glove boost, and a 10stack Tigereye I can have significant burst, and good sustained damage?  I kinda like BS for the resil though...  hm.

I guess orc is an option, but I'm not sure it'd be worth the effort, and yeah it's really really hard to give up wotf. I'll just wait and see if 5.1 fixes some of the problems and if not I'll start considering the more "extreme" solutions like race changing and flat out ignoring all socket bonuses for pure 320 resil gems everywhere and a defensive metagem. :)

For proffs I'd say engi/BS for sure, I'm currently engi/lw mostly because I've been lazy, going to reroll BS as soon as I CBA. The utility BS offers over other proffs outweigh the added "burst" of tailoring/herbalism IMO.

Edited by hid, 27 November 2012 - 04:58 AM.


#53 hid

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:02 AM

Lining up Blood Fury + Swordguard Embroidery + double Dancing Steel procs + on-use trinket + tea is kind of tempting, albeit a bit gimmicky ;)

#54 KILLATON

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:54 AM

I just cant understand why the pet has a DoT and our main spam ability also aplies a DoT and as usual with blizzard they forget to create a glyph that removes DoTs when you CC.(Paralysis).


So off right now, i just skip that pet its to important to CC atm when you line youre burst up since it takes years for it to come back.


But i have discovered the OPnes of Chi wave, that healing is actually sick if you combine it with youre on use target and you get all the bounces.
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#55 Klonken

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:54 PM

View PostRaphner, on 27 November 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

I just cant understand why the pet has a DoT and our main spam ability also aplies a DoT and as usual with blizzard they forget to create a glyph that removes DoTs when you CC.(Paralysis).


So off right now, i just skip that pet its to important to CC atm when you line youre burst up since it takes years for it to come back.


But i have discovered the OPnes of Chi wave, that healing is actually sick if you combine it with youre on use target and you get all the bounces.

i think the "removing dot" on paralysis is not really the BIG concern, since the pet applies the dot every 5 seconds and it actually applies it to CCd targets which makes the paralysis break even tho u cc BEFORE you use the pet, they should make a simular thing like rogues had, that their gouge etc did not break on their own dot dmg .. that would probably be the best solution imo,

With this im NOT saying that we shouldnt have something to remove dots on paralysis, since that would make it more comfortable playing with a lock/spriest etc, and since our cc DRs with sheep, i'd say spriest/warlock is overall a better choice to play with.

also, u said our main spam ability is also a dot, which i dont really see as a problem since its over 4 seconds, and u need to do it from behind and last but not least i find myself more often spamming the spinning fire blossom because its magic and ranged, and also it does almost the same dmg but only costs 1 chi instead of 2

#56 KILLATON

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:53 PM

View PostKlonken, on 27 November 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

i think the "removing dot" on paralysis is not really the BIG concern, since the pet applies the dot every 5 seconds and it actually applies it to CCd targets which makes the paralysis break even tho u cc BEFORE you use the pet, they should make a simular thing like rogues had, that their gouge etc did not break on their own dot dmg .. that would probably be the best solution imo,

With this im NOT saying that we shouldnt have something to remove dots on paralysis, since that would make it more comfortable playing with a lock/spriest etc, and since our cc DRs with sheep, i'd say spriest/warlock is overall a better choice to play with.

also, u said our main spam ability is also a dot, which i dont really see as a problem since its over 4 seconds, and u need to do it from behind and last but not least i find myself more often spamming the spinning fire blossom because its magic and ranged, and also it does almost the same dmg but only costs 1 chi instead of 2

You use magic blossom eventough youre in melee range? I only use it ranged.
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#57 hid

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:21 AM

View PostRaphner, on 27 November 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

You use magic blossom eventough youre in melee range? I only use it ranged.

If you have the GCDs to spare, for pure DPC(damage/chi) spinning fire blossom is better than blackout kick on leather and higher armor, even when in melee range. Obviously there's more to it (BOK being burstier, being able to unload our resources fast between getting cc'd so we don't energy cap, etc), but in an ideal world we'd spam only SFB instead of BOK.

#58 Colroyd

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:31 PM

View PostGabbit, on 23 November 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

Touch of karma and the freedom both shouldn't cost chi imo.

Couldn't agree more.

Personally, I think the main changes needed are removing the chi cost on ToK and TL, a freedom effect rather than initial root break on TL, leg sweep radius increase (although lately it's seemed more reliable), and a fix to Xuen so that it doesn't dot cc'd targets. Pve peeps use the xuen aoe afaik but I think paralyse should maybe remove the dot. I'd gladly use a paralyse glyph that removed dots over glyph of sparring if I had the choice.

Also, I think deadly reach should be baseline, it's the only way I can think of dealing with this crappy CC that in no way compares to other ccs let alone those in it's DR.

Edited by Colroyd, 20 December 2012 - 11:37 PM.


#59 Jarui

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 02:08 PM

I agree with the points people make about ToK and Tiger's Lust and that they have to cost no chi as it's currently very obnoxious if you're getting trained and (for whatever reason) unable to get chi, rendering you unable to do pretty much anything.


I don't know if it's been posted, but has anyone ever wondered why the crap we don't have Stance of the Sturdy Ox as Windwalkers? It makes no sense that other classes have their "go-to defensive stance" and we don't. Heck, if the reason is because they don't want us to Stagger as windwalkers, remove that portion and just give us the damage reduction.


EDIT: Why doesn't Spinning Fire Blossom hit people that are stealthed? It seems pretty retarded that it doesn't if you don't have it glyphed. Could be an "okay" (see: kind of) stealth breaker on some maps.

Edited by Jarui, 21 December 2012 - 04:35 PM.

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#60 Hackattack3

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:12 PM

I just wanted to say hello and thank everyone for the positive and productive dialogue on the monk forums.  It was a refreshing read.  You guys have given me hope for the Aj community and encouraged me to give WW monk a shot!  I will definitely keep reading and learning from these constructive posts.


Best of luck to everyone and I hope 5.2 brings the balance that you are looking for!




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