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#21 Cambra

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:37 PM

Those notes made me happy! TY

#22 Klonken

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 06:18 PM

So, today i was going to check the ladders for windwalker monks and their comps to see what other ppl has been successful with, and since i did not find any real  high teams playing windwalkers from what i've searched these are the ones i could find (both eu and us)

http://eu.battle.net...heerbear/simple
http://us.battle.net...e/Kanjar/simple

from what i've had most success with its with its shadowpriest/monk/rdruid since all the ccs are on different drs and it feels really defensive at the same time with a spriest as dps, with shields and offheals when needed.

im just wondering if any1 else has any input on their success?

#23 hid

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 08:49 PM

Well, I'm currently at 2121 in a team where we've been mostly just playing around ( http://eu.battle.net...s/Hidx/advanced ) I'm quite sure we could reach 2.3k+ if we really tried, even in the stupidity that is 5.0.5.

If the current 5.1 notes go through like they are I don't really see any team that will beat us in our bg. I've played both lock/monk/rsham (messed around with affl, demo and destro on the lock) as well as mage/monk/druid and mage/monk/rsham.

The only reason monks don't feel as good as they SHOULD atm is because we aren't a class that shines in very fast-paced games, biggest problem being bm/warr teams, and to a smaller degree mage teams (although monks just absolutely shut down casters, so come 5.1 we'll be very very scary, EASILY the best melee class vs caster teams, even better than ferals.)

I'm actually somewhat scared that they'll end up nerfing ww monks again in a patch after 5.1 if things go through like they are now. Monks will end up being pretty meh if played at a low skill level (still probably a lot of fun), but if played near its full potential we'll be very strong, I'd say tied for #1 melee with feral druids, overall.

This is coming from a s1-8 glad rogue (held rank1 in 3v3 and 5v5 for the majority of most seasons in s3-s9, we just never wintraded and lots of other teams on our bg did so we never got the actual r1 title.) I quit my rogue in the start of s9 and just came back for MoP and made monk my new main. Absolutely loving it so far, albeit I've only got around 600 arena games played I still think I can say with confidence that the class is great, and with a few quality of life changes(TP buff down to 1 stack, base movement speed increase) and the other 5.1 ptr changes we'll be in a good spot. (healing sphere buff hidden OP ^^)

This quick post turned in to quite a ramble as I just kept putting my thoughts into it without really editing the order of it all, but I hope someone find my views/feedback on the class useful. Feel free to ask questions if you have any, I'll try to give you my thoughts on it. :)

Edited by hid, 30 October 2012 - 08:51 PM.


#24 Klonken

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:23 AM

View Posthid, on 30 October 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

Well, I'm currently at 2121 in a team where we've been mostly just playing around ( http://eu.battle.net...s/Hidx/advanced ) I'm quite sure we could reach 2.3k+ if we really tried, even in the stupidity that is 5.0.5.

If the current 5.1 notes go through like they are I don't really see any team that will beat us in our bg. I've played both lock/monk/rsham (messed around with affl, demo and destro on the lock) as well as mage/monk/druid and mage/monk/rsham.

The only reason monks don't feel as good as they SHOULD atm is because we aren't a class that shines in very fast-paced games, biggest problem being bm/warr teams, and to a smaller degree mage teams (although monks just absolutely shut down casters, so come 5.1 we'll be very very scary, EASILY the best melee class vs caster teams, even better than ferals.)

I'm actually somewhat scared that they'll end up nerfing ww monks again in a patch after 5.1 if things go through like they are now. Monks will end up being pretty meh if played at a low skill level (still probably a lot of fun), but if played near its full potential we'll be very strong, I'd say tied for #1 melee with feral druids, overall.

This is coming from a s1-8 glad rogue (held rank1 in 3v3 and 5v5 for the majority of most seasons in s3-s9, we just never wintraded and lots of other teams on our bg did so we never got the actual r1 title.) I quit my rogue in the start of s9 and just came back for MoP and made monk my new main. Absolutely loving it so far, albeit I've only got around 600 arena games played I still think I can say with confidence that the class is great, and with a few quality of life changes(TP buff down to 1 stack, base movement speed increase) and the other 5.1 ptr changes we'll be in a good spot. (healing sphere buff hidden OP ^^)

This quick post turned in to quite a ramble as I just kept putting my thoughts into it without really editing the order of it all, but I hope someone find my views/feedback on the class useful. Feel free to ask questions if you have any, I'll try to give you my thoughts on it. :)

definitly agree with monks being a great and fun class, mainly the reason for not finding alot of windwalker monks in the ladders is due to many ppl being mistweaver and the class is still really new so ppl havent gotten to 90 and geared properly yet, thats why i posted here to easier find ppl on higher ratings,

and by the way why are u using a living steel weapon chain? (just curious) because disarm doesnt really affect us anyway right? not from what i've experienced

Edit: except for giving us 25% dodge

Edited by Klonken, 31 October 2012 - 10:27 AM.


#25 hid

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:13 PM

View PostKlonken, on 31 October 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

definitly agree with monks being a great and fun class, mainly the reason for not finding alot of windwalker monks in the ladders is due to many ppl being mistweaver and the class is still really new so ppl havent gotten to 90 and geared properly yet, thats why i posted here to easier find ppl on higher ratings,

and by the way why are u using a living steel weapon chain? (just curious) because disarm doesnt really affect us anyway right? not from what i've experienced

Edit: except for giving us 25% dodge

Edit: Your post made me think about it, and I remembered something. Our spinning fire blossom actually does more damage per chi than Blackout Kick vs mail and higher armor(and about the same on leather) even when in melee range, and when at 10+ yards it does A LOT more dmg. SFB doesn't scale at all with weapon dmg, it scales with AP. When disarmed SFB does full damage still. I will be getting rid of my weapon chain offhand enchant right now and replacing it with dancing steel and just spam SFB during disarms (or possibly Elemental Force since the new RPPM mechanic will make it proc a lot more than dancing steel when on the offhand, will need to do a bit on testing on that though, both enchants have their pros and cons, elemental force probably does more overall dmg but less burst potential). Thanks for making a post that actually made me think about it and remember about SFB. :D (I already use SFB as often as I can vs mail/plate, GCDs permitting)

We can still use all attacks, but it heavily lowers our damage, since our abilities scale so much off of weapon damage and not as much off of AP. If you just get disarmed once every 2-3 minutes during a fight, assuming you're on target during that time, it will still be a bigger damage increase than having another dps enchant. Add in the fact that you often get disarmed when you pop cooldowns/going for a kill, the damage loss is both bigger and during a more important moment in the fight. YMMV, but for me I won't ever drop the weapon chain, probably not even after disarms are lowered to 8 sec without weap chain.

Edited by hid, 31 October 2012 - 11:14 PM.


#26 aldreya

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 01:26 PM

Finally they reduced the cost of the one hands weapons but fists to 1750 conquest points.

#27 hid

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 04:08 AM

I just realised that when in stance of the fierce tiger (windwalker stance) we do not get increased healing from pvp power like all other hybrids do. (even mistweaver monks when entering tiger stance lose the healing benefit of pvp power. I guess it won't matter if they go through with the change they were talking about in the pvp blog and make pvp power only affect damage or healing, but if they don't they really need to make it work for us ww monks.

#28 aldreya

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:24 AM

View Posthid, on 03 November 2012 - 04:08 AM, said:

I just realised that when in stance of the fierce tiger (windwalker stance) we do not get increased healing from pvp power like all other hybrids do. (even mistweaver monks when entering tiger stance lose the healing benefit of pvp power. I guess it won't matter if they go through with the change they were talking about in the pvp blog and make pvp power only affect damage or healing, but if they don't they really need to make it work for us ww monks.

How did u notice?

#29 Jorge

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:00 AM

Would be fucking nice if paralize was a base 20 yards

#30 Emoeritz

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:59 AM

That would be great for both speccs,.

I think there are several useful effects for that talent slot after all like paralysis deleting dots, ignoring dot dmg or it counts as always casted from behind the target.
A glyph for paralysis that would do one of these effects would be nice as well, would make this skill way more reliable.

#31 Klonken

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:32 AM

View PostEmoeritz, on 11 November 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

That would be great for both speccs,.

I think there are several useful effects for that talent slot after all like paralysis deleting dots, ignoring dot dmg or it counts as always casted from behind the target.
A glyph for paralysis that would do one of these effects would be nice as well, would make this skill way more reliable.


maybe make it always 8 sec but break dots if u do if from behind?=) just a thought but i dunno, they should really make the 20 yard a glyph instead also, would make paralysis so much better and reliable ^^

#32 Nadagast

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:34 AM

So, from the people who actually have WW Monks, and who play them in arena, how are they in PvP right now?  Strengths?  Weaknesses?

#33 hid

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:15 AM

View PostNadagast, on 12 November 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

So, from the people who actually have WW Monks, and who play them in arena, how are they in PvP right now?  Strengths?  Weaknesses?

Cons: Terrible on-demand burst (none), bad survivability if trained all game (lots of powerful defensive CDs though, and crazy avoidance from the front when not stunned: ~45% parry+dodge - pretty much a rogue without feint when being trained, which means we just blow up in stuns), annoyance of keeping tiger palm stacked (fixed in 5.1), low utility (our offhealing is getting some nice buffs in 5.1, though - will have to see how that turns out), no cc avoidance/breakers like clos/IBF/zerker rage/etc.

Pros: Amazing sustained damage, probably highest in the game (frost dks have more, but a lot of that is useless damage from diseases on off-targets. monks have 100% pure single target up-front damage), great mobility, amazing peels, great gear scaling - kind of like rogues (probably better than rogues, even), great control - we shut down casters better than any other class in the game(pre-gag order nerf warriors included), we can even stick to mages on our own, without any dispels and we absolutely fuck up warlocks(until we get instagibbed ^^) because we also have a teleport.

The main problem with monks in the current state of arenas is the lack of on-demand burst. Our only 2 "burst" cds are the pet with a 45 sec duration (more of a "sustained burst" kind of thing, it isn't bad for pressure though) and tigereye brew that takes 60-90 seconds to stack up to 10 in an arena setting, which we then can pop for a +20% damage bonus for 15 seconds. People simply aren't afraid of us, there's no cds to watch out for vs monks like there is vs every other dps class in the game.

Our survivability might be a problem, but it might also be that because we lack any kind of cds to pop for counterpressure it's just easy to train us. The 5.1 changes are a step in the right direction, but I still feel that we either need a good offensive cooldown for pressure and/or access to our tanking stance in the windwalker spec so we aren't such an attractive target to simply train the whole game with no drawback. I mean ferals, dks and warriors all have access to their tanking stance, why we don't I have no idea. (I know it's usually stupid to compare different classes and use that as an argument for one class getting buffs, but I really don't understand why they decided not to let windwalkers have access to it.)

If the game was balanced right now (lower amount of instant ccs, less retarded burst cds, etc) monks would probably be one of the better classes, but as it is now there is simply no reason to ever have a monk over any other melee, rogue included. At least rogues have a few comps where they can do decently just blowing cds in the first 30 sec and possibly win, monks don't even have that option, any monk team _HAS_ to play for the long game, and that is kind of hard when you have no counterpressure at all and get blown up in a stun because of zero damage reduction without cds, when our survivability relies so heavily upon cds/kiting and parry+dodge vs melees.

I've played monk to about ~2.2k rating with 2 arena partners I've played with for many years, been rank1 with on my rogue for multiple seasons, have great communication with, and so on. We actually struggle to even go above 2.2k(lol), like, we have ZERO room for mistakes even vs terrible teams. I'm convinced that my 3v3 partners could replace me with ANY other class with my gear, even if that player is 2k rating level, and pretty easily carry that guy to 2.3k+(higher than we can achieve with me on monk).

This kind of worries me because the ww monk playstyle is so similar to subt rogue, a class/spec I've played since season1, so I have a pretty good head start on most other ww monks in terms of learning the class. I'd consider myself one of the better ww monks in the game atm, and tbh, I'm kind of struggling.

Earlier on this forum I posted about how I was still hopeful for the monk class, how I see the potential etc, and I still do. I still enjoy playing it a lot. I've just had more experience now after the hotfix nerfs to BM hunters, as well as other people learning how to play against monks (plus more people playing comps like godcomp, kittycleave, MLS, etc) and I can now say that monks need help to become viable (not much, but as I said earlier, we need something like a tanking stance and/or offensive cd).

Edit: Forgot to say what comps I've played. Main comp is demo lock/monk/rsham, but we've tried mage/monk/sham, and we've tried those 2 comps but with a rdruid instead of the rsham. We've also played around with destro and affl on the lock.

As usual this unintentionally turned in to a huge post as I got into it, but I hope that's fine.

Edited by hid, 12 November 2012 - 09:23 AM.


#34 Nadagast

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:21 PM

View Posthid, on 12 November 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

snip

Thank you for this post!  I'm leveling a punch monk and this is very useful to know.  So it sounds like everything is good except for random Monk gibs+Monk getting trained?  Have you tried gemming full resil?  I don't know, but it may be able to help some of your problems, full resil gems seem pretty damn strong.

Edited by Nadagast, 12 November 2012 - 07:21 PM.


#35 hid

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:40 PM

View PostNadagast, on 12 November 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

Thank you for this post!  I'm leveling a punch monk and this is very useful to know.  So it sounds like everything is good except for random Monk gibs+Monk getting trained?  Have you tried gemming full resil?  I don't know, but it may be able to help some of your problems, full resil gems seem pretty damn strong.

Yeah, it doesn't make a big enough difference to be worth it in my experience. The problem is that to gain that extra 6% or so DR from full resil gemming you'd have to give up about the same percentage of damage, and atm we really need all the damage we can get.

I think things might get better with t2 weaps + full malev gear. Just from testing it out on PTR with full gear and 2/2 upgraded T1 weapons, our damage seems to scale like crazy. We'll just have to wait for 5.1, I think that patch will make us the 2nd best melee in the game (behind ferals), assuming it solves our lack of counterpressure problem, which in turn solves people riding us all game without any risk, which in turn means we can play for the long games where we actually shine. Call me optimistic but I think it's possible. :)

#36 Nadagast

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:19 PM

View Posthid, on 12 November 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

Yeah, it doesn't make a big enough difference to be worth it in my experience. The problem is that to gain that extra 6% or so DR from full resil gemming you'd have to give up about the same percentage of damage, and atm we really need all the damage we can get.

I think things might get better with t2 weaps + full malev gear. Just from testing it out on PTR with full gear and 2/2 upgraded T1 weapons, our damage seems to scale like crazy. We'll just have to wait for 5.1, I think that patch will make us the 2nd best melee in the game (behind ferals), assuming it solves our lack of counterpressure problem, which in turn solves people riding us all game without any risk, which in turn means we can play for the long games where we actually shine. Call me optimistic but I think it's possible. :)

Well... I think this is a case where numbers can be deceiving.  Let's just say, for the sake of round numbers, that you could gain 5% dmg, or +5% resil DR.

+5% dmg is straight up +5% dmg, hits for 100 will now hit for 105.
+5% resil DR however, is very powerful.  Let's say you're at 60% DR before, 65% after.  That means you're taking 40% damage before, and 35% after.  That's a relative damage reduction of 12.5%, 2.5x better than the damage boost.  I think resil numbers are deceptive.  :)

Edited by Nadagast, 12 November 2012 - 09:21 PM.


#37 hid

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:31 PM

Yeah I know how resil works and that it has exponential scaling, my point is that even 5% damage is more valuable than 10%(or even 15%) DR for a monk atm (in the comps I've played at least). When I die in in an arena game it is almost never a "close" thing, it's me and my healer running out of CDs and then getting killed with 3+ sec left on the stun and 5 sec cc left on my healer as I die.


I'm not saying that full resil gemming is bad, just that I think it's heavily comp dependant. The biggest problem we've got is that people simply aren't afraid of us (with good reason), we're playing on the back foot 90% of the time and then when we set up a perfect situation for ourselves for the remaining 10% that is where I need all the damage I can get. I just don't think that more DR from resil gemming will lower the amount of time we're on the backfoot, and it will hinder our chances to actually win during the 10% windows where we usually get our wins. I've tried pretty much everything I can think of with the comps available to me and I've pretty much given up on it until 5.1 is out. The crazy wintrading/mmr bug abusing going on atm does make this choice a bit easier aswell. :)

Edit: The last thing I had planned before we decided to just chill until 5.1 was actually going full out resil, but we ended up deciding to just wait it out because even if the resil gemming would turn out to be better, it would not solve the inherent problems. Arena simply isn't fun for my partners in a monk team. It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't played with one, but it's a completely different game. You just feel like you have absolutely no pressure or control of the game at any point, you have to bruteforce everything to work. Playing vs equally skilled opponents of pretty much any decent comp means you have less than a 5% chance to win, and that's being generous.

Edited by hid, 12 November 2012 - 09:42 PM.


#38 hid

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:55 PM

I do have to add though, that in 5.1 I'm going resil gemming (while keeping socket bonuses). The damage/quality of life buffs we're recieving are more than making up for the lost damage. T2 weaps will also make a huge difference since we scale so much better with that upgrade than most other classes.

#39 Ikkiau

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:41 PM

View PostNadagast, on 12 November 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

Thank you for this post!  I'm leveling a punch monk and this is very useful to know.  So it sounds like everything is good except for random Monk gibs+Monk getting trained?  Have you tried gemming full resil?  I don't know, but it may be able to help some of your problems, full resil gems seem pretty damn strong.
Playing with mage (idc about dr's, just with friends) the rare occasions I get hit, I'm fine and people die much faster then on the mage all game. I don't think resil gems are nessicary, if a warrior heroic strikes you for all the damages, you die, resil won't really help that, other then that it seems more or less manageable.
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#40 hid

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:16 PM

View PostIkkiau, on 12 November 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Playing with mage (idc about dr's, just with friends) the rare occasions I get hit, I'm fine and people die much faster then on the mage all game. I don't think resil gems are nessicary, if a warrior heroic strikes you for all the damages, you die, resil won't really help that, other then that it seems more or less manageable.

Monk is a terrible target to switch to for a kill because we have such powerful defensive cds, either you train the monk all game or you don't touch him. And it isn't about not needing the resil or resil not helping (it will), it's just that we need the damage more. It's a tough choice but at least for the comps I'm playing going the damage route is way more important.




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