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#1 Vengeance

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:01 PM

Anyone know which is better for PvP?
2H or Dual Wield?

I originally was going to go with DW because the talk on Elitist Jerks is saying it will be stronger, but having the haste from 2H making our globals significantly shorter, I'm leaning towards 2H at this point.

Thoughts?
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#2 Emoeritz

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:49 PM

Our global is 1 sec to begin with.

Other than that, I'm as well not quite sure what to take as WW.
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#3 Vengeance

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:12 PM

Our global is 1 sec to begin with.

Other than that, I'm as well not quite sure what to take as WW.


Hmm, I guess I was imagining the shorter GCD with the 2H? It still really feels like it, dunno.
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#4 bl00dlust

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:25 AM

Anyone know which is better for PvP?
2H or Dual Wield?

I originally was going to go with DW because the talk on Elitist Jerks is saying it will be stronger, but having the haste from 2H making our globals significantly shorter, I'm leaning towards 2H at this point.

Thoughts?


first of all, its not haste.. its melee attack speed. secondly, dual wield because you get better dmg with tiger strikes, and not to mention double enchants. monks dont need weapon chains at all
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#5 Serben

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:59 PM

For my part, the only thing that matters is hard kicks, So to optimize the sun rise kick im trying to get the polearm (slow as possible). The double enchant is a good arguement and might be better. I do not have any numbers what so ever. Not even sure of the mechanis how it works but my choice of weapon is 2h slow polearm with haste + crit
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#6 Cambra

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:59 PM

I'm going dual wield because of the dmg output, if you can stay on somebody like you should you'll have more burst. I might go 2hand if the 40% haste buff also applied to energy regen but for now I'm content w/ DW
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#7 Serben

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 02:59 PM

I'm going dual wield because of the dmg output, if you can stay on somebody like you should you'll have more burst. I might go 2hand if the 40% haste buff also applied to energy regen but for now I'm content w/ DW


U have any source for dual weild having better damage output and higher burst? i havent see any pvp posts about dps monks where they confirm what weapons are best
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#8 Cambra

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:32 AM

U have any source for dual weild having better damage output and higher burst? i havent see any pvp posts about dps monks where they confirm what weapons are best



the passive says 40% more dmg for dual weilding, 40% more haste for 2hand... so really i guess what they want is for any weapon spec to be viable, 2hand that hits hard 40% faster, or 2 weaker strikes for 40% more, but I've noticed these 2 strikes act instantly and are amazing burst when switching or opening
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#9 Chardex

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:24 AM

Tiger strikes - you get more burst with duel wield weapons.. You next 4 attacks cause an extra attack, which applies to both weapons..

2h, lets say you burst someone.. you pop brew and leg sweap, you're gonna do alot of dmg with sun rising kick and blackout.. when you get that auto attack that will probably hit around 30k.. you're gonna be waiting a couple seconds just to get another one out.. duel wield - hits around 22-25k MH and 13k Offhnd.. and more consistent dmg..

auto attacks are a huge dmg output right now.. and until that 40% attack speed actually scales with your gear, 2h's aren't what its all about right now.
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#10 Serben

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:59 PM

Tiger strikes - you get more burst with duel wield weapons.. You next 4 attacks cause an extra attack, which applies to both weapons..

2h, lets say you burst someone.. you pop brew and leg sweap, you're gonna do alot of dmg with sun rising kick and blackout.. when you get that auto attack that will probably hit around 30k.. you're gonna be waiting a couple seconds just to get another one out.. duel wield - hits around 22-25k MH and 13k Offhnd.. and more consistent dmg..

auto attacks are a huge dmg output right now.. and until that 40% attack speed actually scales with your gear, 2h's aren't what its all about right now.


But burst is everything atm imo, i think 2h is better for that reason.
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#11 Jimmyeh

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:40 PM

is there anything new concrete information regarding this topic?
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#12 Raphner

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:34 PM

I go with dual wield, i equiped the staff and checked my tooltip damage for RSK and it was super low compared to having dual weapons.
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#13 Klonken

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:09 PM

I go with dual wield, i equiped the staff and checked my tooltip damage for RSK and it was super low compared to having dual weapons.


it does not actually do lower dmg, i tried this out (cant remember exactly how it was) but i think it was something like this

2h: 60000-90000
1hx2: 55000-95000

so basicly 1 of those 2 gives a bigger spread sheet of dmg and not really any difference in the dmg overall on the attacks from what i know,

altho x2 enchants and dualwield does more dmg overall but just dmgwise on the abilities there should not be a difference
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#14 Nadagast

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 11:51 AM

Any Orc punch Monks gemmed resil with the stun reduction meta? How are you doing since 5.1? ^^
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#15 Nadagast

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:15 AM

Any Orc punch Monks gemmed resil with the stun reduction meta? How are you doing since 5.1? ^^


Well this is not a very active forum. :)
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#16 dirtymoney

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:05 AM

Well this is not a very active forum. :)


the silence answered your question. also answers why it's such a dead forum.
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#17 hid

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:07 AM

Any Orc punch Monks gemmed resil with the stun reduction meta? How are you doing since 5.1? ^^


Well, I'm still UD, but I did reroll BS and I'm fully resil gemmed. 5.1 is a step in the right direction but we're still the worst pvp class. I don't really have as much problems staying alive any more but the biggest problem still remains - we have no burst cd and no cc avoidance/breakers. This is why I currently believe orc isn't the best choice, wotf is just too big of a deal since it's so incredibly easy to peel us with cc when we're popping cds/going for kills.

Don't get me wrong, we aren't terrible we just have the potential to be really good if they just fix some "minor" stuff. Mainly: Buffing paralysis (make it last full duration no matter from what direction it's used, and either make it undispellable (like gouge/sap) or make it not break on damage. Currently it's the worst cc in the game.

We also BADLY need a big cd ala reck/berserk/dance. Possibly not as powerful as those cds but we sure need something to be a threat.

Less important but still probably needed is a slight buff to our mitigation, possibly giving us access to the tanking stance so we have something to do when we're trained all game - most other melees got something like def stance/blood presence/bear form(and +20% healing in cat)/feint talent.

Lastly I'd really like to see fists of fury not split damage because at the moment I cancel FoF on the first tick, just using it for the stun about 90% of the time. All that's needed to make fof useless for damage is to leave a pet on the monk but even without doing that it's rare to have a target being isolated. I like this option the most because it would give us an ability people would actually have to think about when planning strategies for meeting us. FoF does a lot of single target damage (basically the same dps as we do single target just using our regular rotation), if we had the ability to cleave 100% of our dps on a short(ish) cd it might deter people from training us because every 25 seconds we'd be able to do some serious damage to 2 targets opening up offensive counterpressure even when trained. We'd also have a BIG threat if 3 people ever clumped up, it might be too good on 3 targets though, I'm not sure, probably not though since it'd basically be a 25 second weaker version of bladestorm. Another solution would be to allow us to continue autoattacking while channeling FoF so we don't feel like we actually LOSE damage when channeling FoF on more than 1 target in pvp.

So, you're still thinking about leveling a monk for pvp? All I can say is that I still really enjoy the playstyle of monk, even though we're currently getting my ass smacked around in arenas by people we'd just steamroll in 99 out of 100 games and consider free points in previous seasons. >.<

Edited by hid, 11 December 2012 - 04:13 AM.

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#18 hid

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:24 AM

It has pretty much come to the point where my arena partners for 5 years are starting to play less, thinking about quitting the game because they don't at all enjoy playing with a monk. For one week they even replaced me with a mage(that only has like 2.2k experience) and instantly went 30-1 win/loss just carrying him to top10 in the bg. We just have that feeling of helplessness every game, we just have to work SO hard for our wins.

Edited by hid, 11 December 2012 - 04:25 AM.

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#19 Woodyhoho

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 08:39 AM

Well, I'm still UD, but I did reroll BS and I'm fully resil gemmed. 5.1 is a step in the right direction but we're still the worst pvp class. I don't really have as much problems staying alive any more but the biggest problem still remains - we have no burst cd and no cc avoidance/breakers. This is why I currently believe orc isn't the best choice, wotf is just too big of a deal since it's so incredibly easy to peel us with cc when we're popping cds/going for kills.

Don't get me wrong, we aren't terrible we just have the potential to be really good if they just fix some "minor" stuff. Mainly: Buffing paralysis (make it last full duration no matter from what direction it's used, and either make it undispellable (like gouge/sap) or make it not break on damage. Currently it's the worst cc in the game.

We also BADLY need a big cd ala reck/berserk/dance. Possibly not as powerful as those cds but we sure need something to be a threat.

Less important but still probably needed is a slight buff to our mitigation, possibly giving us access to the tanking stance so we have something to do when we're trained all game - most other melees got something like def stance/blood presence/bear form(and +20% healing in cat)/feint talent.

Lastly I'd really like to see fists of fury not split damage because at the moment I cancel FoF on the first tick, just using it for the stun about 90% of the time. All that's needed to make fof useless for damage is to leave a pet on the monk but even without doing that it's rare to have a target being isolated. I like this option the most because it would give us an ability people would actually have to think about when planning strategies for meeting us. FoF does a lot of single target damage (basically the same dps as we do single target just using our regular rotation), if we had the ability to cleave 100% of our dps on a short(ish) cd it might deter people from training us because every 25 seconds we'd be able to do some serious damage to 2 targets opening up offensive counterpressure even when trained. We'd also have a BIG threat if 3 people ever clumped up, it might be too good on 3 targets though, I'm not sure, probably not though since it'd basically be a 25 second weaker version of bladestorm. Another solution would be to allow us to continue autoattacking while channeling FoF so we don't feel like we actually LOSE damage when channeling FoF on more than 1 target in pvp.

So, you're still thinking about leveling a monk for pvp? All I can say is that I still really enjoy the playstyle of monk, even though we're currently getting my ass smacked around in arenas by people we'd just steamroll in 99 out of 100 games and consider free points in previous seasons. >.<


You just have to think before you use your Fist of Fury..... dont use it when theres 3+ people infront of you if it's not meant for peeling...


Also we dont badly need a big CD anywhere.... Our damage is fine, it's our survivability thats not, i solo healers easier than a warrior does but i can die in a shockwave stun vs tsg when they dont even have cds up, thats the biggest problem atm.

Also WW might not be top 5 class, but its easy to get 2.2-2.4k if you just know what you're doing, especially after warrior and mage nerfs.


Also Hidx; Why in gods name would you ever reforge HASTE? It's such a clueless stat for WW monks in pvp... Go expertise for christ sake.

Edited by Woodyhoho, 14 December 2012 - 08:49 AM.

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#20 hid

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 11:41 AM

You just have to think before you use your Fist of Fury..... dont use it when theres 3+ people infront of you if it's not meant for peeling...


Also we dont badly need a big CD anywhere.... Our damage is fine, it's our survivability thats not, i solo healers easier than a warrior does but i can die in a shockwave stun vs tsg when they dont even have cds up, thats the biggest problem atm.

Also WW might not be top 5 class, but its easy to get 2.2-2.4k if you just know what you're doing, especially after warrior and mage nerfs.


Also Hidx; Why in gods name would you ever reforge HASTE? It's such a clueless stat for WW monks in pvp... Go expertise for christ sake.


You're completely missing my point about FoF, OBVIOUSLY you don't use it for damage when there's 2 or more targets in front of you, that's my whole point.

Of course you can get 2.2k+ if you build a comp around it, the point I was making is that you have to work harder than any other melee to do so. We're currently the worst melee spec in the game.

Our sustained damage is fine, and the reason we can solo healers is mainly because of our control not our damage (stuns into blanket silence and paralysis to interrupt aura mastery.)

I'm not reforging haste, I'm reforging crit primarily. crit>haste>expertise is my reforge prio, sometimes becoming crit>exp>haste depending on the situation. The 1 expertise->haste reforge I still had left on my neck was from before 5.1 (ascension), back when ShS was 30 energy, haste was your best reforge (at the very least it was a tossup between haste and crit) and I reforged to haste over everything else. I completely missed it when I reforged come 5.1, I have since corrected that mistake.

I do not agree with the people who reforge expertise over haste at all costs, it's very easy to get behind a target to land stuff if you absolutely have to guarantee it landing, we have plenty of tools to do that. Reforging expertise is just an easy way out, but it isn't optimal (a big part of that is because targets will often be stunned when you're going for kills. - the only abilities you'd ever care about getting dodged/parried is RSK and leg sweep, but those you just use from behind, paralyse->leg sweep, root->jump over->leg sweep etc, plenty of ways to handle it.) Try playing a rogue for 8 years, you'll get used to it.

Our lack of burst is a way bigger problem than survivability atm. Survivability can be solved by going full resil regem, burst/counterpressure option can not. After mage/warr/lock nerfs I really do not have that big of a problem surviving. We rarely lose because I die first.

Your post was absolutely pointless, you completely misunderstood the points I was trying to make, and none of your replies adds anything other than you trying to come off as being better than me. Trust me, you don't want to go there.

Edited by hid, 14 December 2012 - 11:55 AM.

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