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MoP Arena: First Impressions


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#221 Qyzz

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:59 PM

I think the fact that you can't control your character most of the time without being able to avoid it, is one of the most important factors why the game feels so „weird, boring, whatever“.


The amount of CC is too damn high.
I would not include the castet CC or the “real interrupts” into this. You can avoid these kind of CC. But the problem is the not avoidable kind of CC (way too much instant fears, too much instant stuns, gag order, pom, nature's swiftness, ancestral swiftness, high amount of healer CC...).

You should be able to control your character most of the time and only can be stopped if you get interrupted, or get CCd even if it was avoidable. To compensate that, damage and healing need to be nerfed a lot, because everything would die instantly if everyone could control their character most of the time at the moment.


I didn’t really played BC but from what I have heard the idea that you cant kill someone from 100 to 0 AND you cant heal someone from 0 to 100 in 3 seconds sounds really good. This changed since S5 and never really came back. So my suggestions:


double HP
remove a lot of instant CC/instants in general
nerf a few specs which are over the top (BM, MS, Frost...
nerf mobility or snare/stun ability’s from some melees OR reduce their damage
nerf caster damage in general a bit
nerf survival CD's (druid for example)
nerf healer mana


Language barrier prevents me from explaining exactly what I mean but I hope you can still understand it.

#222 Bloobungle

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 04:16 PM

Arenas are in the worst state they have ever been. Period. I can predict when I'm going to be killed in 2 seconds and when I'm about to CC'd for 2 minutes straight and there's absolutely nothing to do about it. It's great though because these mongrels abusing overtuned specs don't see an issue whatsoever. I guess in their mind, hitting a series of buttons that increase damage and the play the game for you is skillful.
  • Why is there still no downside to spamming offensive dispel or spell-steal, for like the 7th season in a row.
  • Why does mana exist?
  • Why do pets do astronomical amounts of damage? This goes for ALL pets.
  • Why does basically every specialization have some form of retard-strength burst and little to no consistent damage? I may not have the reaction times of a world-class athlete but come on! I die in 0.8 seconds from full health to certain abilities.
  • Why does it feel like melee classes have more ways to interrupt me rather than less? Sure, increase the cooldown on interrupts and give them several more ways to stun or silence. That makes sense. We all LOVE to never fight back.
  • Why do I have to unleash the fury to kill a warrior below 35% hp? Am I the only one that sees something terribly flawed with this? Second Wind passively heals for what, 35k health per second?
  • Why are serious issues not addressed in a more professional manor? "Oh yea, we changed our mind at the last second. No mistakes here. Just hang around for another month and things will get better."

Needless to say, I'm not impressed. I've never felt so helpless in PvP within these first few weeks. It's awful, it's frustrating, and it's not even rewarding when you actually kill something. I actually feel sorry for people that are enjoying arenas right now. And just wait!!!! We all obtain about 10% more PvP damage this coming Tuesday! No, not just you. EVERYONE.

#223 Domesauce

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:15 PM

Psyfiend is the best player in the game, fears my trinket every time. Incredible awareness and prediction.

#224 ROKMODE

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:18 PM

View PostAbsoqt, on 14 October 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

It wasn't supposed to be funny, so the 2 sentences can be ignored. Nice try though. You're wrong in the second part, too. Inactive players mostly post here out of boredom or to troll. The forum is a shithole but it certainly isn't enriched by the players who didn't play the current or even the last expansion. This is why you get all those posts demanding removal of Junkie status for players with glads from TBC or even Wrath. I do have respect for addon authors who continue to release updates even though they're not playing.
I played the majority of cataclysm. To be fair, you and I probably see this forum in different lights. I personally am in favor of abolishing the junkie title all together. The very concept of wanting to dedicate a website to a community in hopes of growing it seems great, but then it feels counterproductive with the junkie mechanics. It's really hard to get into this community because everyone likes to shut each other down. People's accomplishments ie. titles mean absolutely nothing to anyone else as there is always some excuse as to how the person obtained it. Obviously, removing junkie statuses would make this board a little chaotic, but that's where having more moderators and people better at reporting posts comes in handy. Oh well, don't mind me. I'm just living in my own little dreamworld where I would imagine a community actually wants to grow instead of hanging onto the same limited group that dwindles with every shitty patch. If it's really that much of a problem, ideally AJ could make it so people must post for a few weeks outside of GD without receiving any infractions, then they would be allowed to post here. Frankly, I've seen just as much stupid shit come from 50000 time rank 1 players as duelists. This board has become less about the discussion of the game's matchups, how to fight shit, guides, and it's become overall less constructive. I get that this is a thread about impressions of the expansion, so naturally there is going to be a lot of complaining, but this manages to be in every thread. I'm sure pandas is really shitty so far. From what I've read, I don't think I need to playing it to figure this out. Perhaps there are specs/classes so strong that they have no counterpicks. I get that that's possible too after playing s5/s9, but there is no use in complaining in every single post here. Blizzard reads AJ like once a full moon, and even if they did, I doubt they would respond to all this nonsensical rambling. If you guys really want to complain in an orderly and useful fashion, make a complaining about MOP thread and sticky that shit. Leave the complaining there and the constructive shit in other threads. There is always something small that you can do to counteract the stupidness that is this game. That should be a lot of the discussion here. That is actually useful toward innovating ways to beat things. While everyone was mindlessly complaining about wizards in s8, there were people who were actually posting and thinking of ways to beat them. Obviously, it involves you playing better than them, but that follows the philosophy of almost any game. If the game is completely unplayable right now, then by all means complain all you want, but the state of the game shouldn't dictate the quality of the discussion on this site, or this site is going to be continuously shitty.

Edited by ROKMODE, 14 October 2012 - 07:20 PM.

Expect bias in posts because
Wotlk is the best thing since sliced bread

#225 varellz

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:23 PM

View PostQyzz, on 14 October 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

I think the fact that you can't control your character most of the time without being able to avoid it, is one of the most important factors why the game feels so „weird, boring, whatever“.


The amount of CC is too damn high.
I would not include the castet CC or the “real interrupts” into this. You can avoid these kind of CC. But the problem is the not avoidable kind of CC (way too much instant fears, too much instant stuns, gag order, pom, nature's swiftness, ancestral swiftness, high amount of healer CC...).

You should be able to control your character most of the time and only can be stopped if you get interrupted, or get CCd even if it was avoidable. To compensate that, damage and healing need to be nerfed a lot, because everything would die instantly if everyone could control their character most of the time at the moment.


I didn’t really played BC but from what I have heard the idea that you cant kill someone from 100 to 0 AND you cant heal someone from 0 to 100 in 3 seconds sounds really good. This changed since S5 and never really came back. So my suggestions:


double HP
remove a lot of instant CC/instants in general
nerf a few specs which are over the top (BM, MS, Frost...
nerf mobility or snare/stun ability’s from some melees OR reduce their damage
nerf caster damage in general a bit
nerf survival CD's (druid for example)
nerf healer mana


Language barrier prevents me from explaining exactly what I mean but I hope you can still understand it.

exactly that!
That instant cc everyone has is ridiculous.

Btw. y do warrior have AoE CC with 1 min cd , not dispellable and rogues have a singletarget blind , same duration and 3 min cd? :o

#226 Lolflay

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:40 AM

Warning : rant ahead regarding general state of game, not just arena itself.

Bought the game, leveled a new toon to 90. Leveling is quite boring and standard. Amount of ridiculous shit in arena has shot up even more than it did in Cataclysm ( the game which made many players quit ).


The community is still the same ( biased retards defending their OP classes, neutral players and those who want balance ), the game is still the same as before - 3-4 OP specs/classes and rest whining. BM hunters owning it up, warriors getting 5 stacks and oneshotting you, resto druids being gods, shadowpriests being gods, warlocks having such stupid survivability with almost no damage output ( resulting in long games where nothing happens ), etc.


Shadowpriests are overpowered, and yet incredibly boring due to Shadow orb mechanic - they were obviously trying to add more depth, but in the end, it doesn't add depth, it just adds stupid boring limitation.

After quitting WoW and returning after a longer period of time where you played more balanced games than this one ( or haven't played anything at all ), you realize that this crap isn't fun or intriguing anymore. There used to be a time where I'd get upset at inferior players who won me due to a better combo/class - I'm amazed you people are still content with that stuff, when there are a lot more balanced games out there.

Edited by Lolflay, 15 October 2012 - 01:44 AM.

Quote

[13:49:14] Creed: u have 20min to find a healer, going for a jog
[13:49:53] Creed: nothing like running through the bush being chased by wild animals to get a proper workout
[13:50:01] Creed: you europeans and ur silly gyms

#227 Hexagram

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:10 AM

View PostLolflay, on 15 October 2012 - 01:40 AM, said:


After quitting WoW and returning after a longer period of time where you played more balanced games than this one ( or haven't played anything at all ), you realize that this crap isn't fun or intriguing anymore. There used to be a time where I'd get upset at inferior players who won me due to a better combo/class - I'm amazed you people are still content with that stuff, when there are a lot more balanced games out there.

I thought wow arena has always had the potential to be amazing with even just a few simplistic changes if we could ever convince blizzard to make them.

The main reason I quit pvp, later wow entirely, early into cata was that I had gotten the feeling that they were essentially telling arena players to go fuck themselves when ever we complained about imbalances.  They were going to balance around low rated bg players since that was where the majority of their pvp player base was.   Majority of rbg groups only brought 1, some times 2, shaman, rogues and warlocks so their representation is average and they aren't over powered bullshit logic.

During the lead up to MoP there was a lot of positive mentions from blizzard that they were going to keep a closer watch on pvp balance then they had in the last expansion.  I was hoping they realized how badly they had fucked up in cata and they were making attempts to fix it.  I was still on the fence until the mass team reset came out during the final weeks leading up to MoP and I thought finally they realize that they can't just focus on the looking for raid retards and not see a subscription drop.

So far I haven't been impressed at all with any thing in MoP.  I'm still falling back on my false hope of the game having the potential to be fun so I'll give blizzard until the first major patch to make pvp fun and if not then I'll unsubscribe for another couple years or permanently this time.

#228 Akumos

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:29 AM

This game could go a long way with a dodge system similar to GW2. Monks already have a roll animation, they have the tech for it, just make it act like vanish and dodge all abilities while you're dodging, make it like a 0.5 sec animation so you have to be precise, 2 per min.

#229

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:38 AM

I think this season more than any previous season, it feels more like everything about arena needs to be changed rather then just a few classes. If you're not playing with or against a team with a bm hunter or mage games have the potential to last a really long time.

*Mage/Hunter/Warrior burst way to high
*Way to much instant cc
*Hybrid healing way to strong
*Healing in general way to strong
*Most classes simply have too many defensive cooldowns now.
It feels like even when you cc a healer for 30 seconds straight, if you're not with a mage/bm hunter its hard as fuck to score kills.
*Offensive dispels, specifically spellsteal need to be completely reevaluated
*Cooldown on dispel needs to be reevaluated simply because of mages, but to a lesser extent because of warlocks/priests. Nova's/ring of frost/aoe fears, and the fact that every single mage/lock just spams their poly/fear into one target now so if you do dispel it theyre instantly re-cc'd, and if you dont theyre obviously still cc'd.
*healers dont oom
*nothing actually ooms
*Symbiosis brings way too many balance problems
*Blood fear is the single stupidest ability that has ever existed in this game
*HoT's are too strong for teams that can't dispel them/useless against teams like shatterplay that spam dispel them.

#230 Peripheral

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:15 AM

View PostRadejjj, on 15 October 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

I think this season more than any previous season, it feels more like everything about arena needs to be changed rather then just a few classes. If you're not playing with or against a team with a bm hunter or mage games have the potential to last a really long time.

*Mage/Hunter/Warrior burst way to high
*Way to much instant cc
*Hybrid healing way to strong
*Healing in general way to strong
*Most classes simply have too many defensive cooldowns now.
It feels like even when you cc a healer for 30 seconds straight, if you're not with a mage/bm hunter its hard as fuck to score kills.
*Offensive dispels, specifically spellsteal need to be completely reevaluated
*Cooldown on dispel needs to be reevaluated simply because of mages, but to a lesser extent because of warlocks/priests. Nova's/ring of frost/aoe fears, and the fact that every single mage/lock just spams their poly/fear into one target now so if you do dispel it theyre instantly re-cc'd, and if you dont theyre obviously still cc'd.
*healers dont oom
*nothing actually ooms
*Symbiosis brings way too many balance problems
*Blood fear is the single stupidest ability that has ever existed in this game
*HoT's are too strong for teams that can't dispel them/useless against teams like shatterplay that spam dispel them.


This is all true in my experience, aside from the comment about nothing actually OOMing; resto shamans can go OOM.

#231 Speedymart

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:37 PM

View PostTyphlosion, on 15 October 2012 - 03:15 AM, said:

This is all true in my experience, aside from the comment about nothing actually OOMing; resto shamans can go OOM.
Mana doesn't exist for mages hehe
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#232 bighandxyz

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:20 PM

View PostBloobungle, on 14 October 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Arenas are in the worst state they have ever been. Period. I can predict when I'm going to be killed in 2 seconds and when I'm about to CC'd for 2 minutes straight and there's absolutely nothing to do about it. It's great though because these mongrels abusing overtuned specs don't see an issue whatsoever. I guess in their mind, hitting a series of buttons that increase damage and the play the game for you is skillful.
  • Why is there still no downside to spamming offensive dispel or spell-steal, for like the 7th season in a row.
  • Why does mana exist?
  • Why do pets do astronomical amounts of damage? This goes for ALL pets.
  • Why does basically every specialization have some form of retard-strength burst and little to no consistent damage? I may not have the reaction times of a world-class athlete but come on! I die in 0.8 seconds from full health to certain abilities.
  • Why does it feel like melee classes have more ways to interrupt me rather than less? Sure, increase the cooldown on interrupts and give them several more ways to stun or silence. That makes sense. We all LOVE to never fight back.
  • Why do I have to unleash the fury to kill a warrior below 35% hp? Am I the only one that sees something terribly flawed with this? Second Wind passively heals for what, 35k health per second?
  • Why are serious issues not addressed in a more professional manor? "Oh yea, we changed our mind at the last second. No mistakes here. Just hang around for another month and things will get better."
Needless to say, I'm not impressed. I've never felt so helpless in PvP within these first few weeks. It's awful, it's frustrating, and it's not even rewarding when you actually kill something. I actually feel sorry for people that are enjoying arenas right now. And just wait!!!! We all obtain about 10% more PvP damage this coming Tuesday! No, not just you. EVERYONE.
nope cataclysm deserves that award

but its k every expansion is "the worse state arena ever been in". Heard it a million times, but nothing beat how bad cata was

Edited by bighandxyz, 15 October 2012 - 06:20 PM.


#233 Durial

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:29 PM

This game is one massive dick and we're the stains

thats all

#234 infectionx

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:51 PM

View Postbighandxyz, on 15 October 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

nope cataclysm deserves that award

but its k every expansion is "the worse state arena ever been in". Heard it a million times, but nothing beat how bad cata was
Nope mop is waaaaaaaay worse than cata, i mean they tried to make mop bad, they must have otherwise i can't explain how it ended up so fucking shit, whilst cata ended up being really bad ( apart s9~) due to bad desicion making from blizzard and fucking pve.


So far at least but i dont have any hopes for improvements in the correct way  considering the past  of this developer team ^_^.

Edited by infectionx, 15 October 2012 - 06:52 PM.

Restoration shamans in season 11 According to
Felic:
And yeah they can survive for more than 30 seconds without casting. You have partners in 3v3 you know? SURPRISE

#235 ady

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:26 PM

View Postvarellol, on 14 October 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

exactly that!
That instant cc everyone has is ridiculous.

Btw. y do warrior have AoE CC with 1 min cd , not dispellable and rogues have a singletarget blind , same duration and 3 min cd? :o

I thought the same thing with frost dks when they had hungering cold.
I thought it was given a cast time because a 1 minute aoe CC was too op for a melee class? Then blizzard turns around and gives it to warriors.
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#236 Nez

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:38 PM

I think wow suffers from a very bad case of power creep.

#237 Seu

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:01 PM

I suggest everyone queue up the season 8 tournament server at some point to get a real idea of what has happened though. I havent had time to buy or play MoP (and it also kinda looks like crap), but I turned on some AT to get some games in the other day and its insane how much I forgot about.


By far the most obvious difference to me when going back to s8 (and even bigger if you go to s4) are the mechanics. WOTLK and to a greater extent BC were all about using a combination of good positioning and your core abilities really really well. In WOTLK you had to be on your toes all game because you didn't need huge cooldowns to punish mistakes - if you saw someone doing something absolutley retarded and you knew what you were doing, a kill would shortly follow regardless of if you had any cooldowns up.

Cata, and to a greater extent MoP, shifted the focus of WoW pvp from your ability to use core skills to your ability to line up a series of gimmicky big cooldowns. Games revolve completely around lining up big cooldowns then smashing them all at the same time, then just biding your time until they are up again. Its incredibly frustrating watching enemy teams make huge mistakes and stand in awful positions but you have no way to punish them because you dont have some 2 min cd up, or losing after a team plays like total garbage but their cooldowns come up first. Too much focus has been spent on adding new abilities that are "exciting" while removing "boring" old abilities, and in a beautiful twist of irony this development direction has lead to an incredibly boring game.

#238 Korzul

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:15 PM

The game just feels "cheap"

Landing cc is now easier then ever, who needs good positioning, good pressure etc when you have stuff like blood fear/PoM ring/Psyfiend etc. This is an real problem because once it's a 3vs2 it's massively easier to land follow up cc.

The amount of cc is just staggering.

Peeling properly is too easy considering everyone has too much control and there's an 8 sec cd on dispel "Don't worry i'll just spam sheep twice or we'll follow up a nova with a fear"

Offensive dispels are bordering on stupidity, much like defensive dispels were last season. People were calling for more debuff protection last xpac, everything but resto druids are going to be calling for buff protection this xpac.

Hybrid offhealing is again over the top.

The number of defensive cooldowns is getting really silly. Thinking "We have 6 dr's to get through 3x defensive cooldowns, and 2x healer cooldowns before said healer has a trinket back up". Or being able to NS hex whenever the hell i want because it's ok, i have tide/ ascendance/link to back it up and it's only a 1 min cooldown anyway. Or even better, having to cross cc perfectly 4-5 times in a 2 min period because NOT doing means a shadow priest presses shield and flash heal and no defensives need to be used and in 2 mins all the defensives start rotating off cooldown again.

And the best part, with all the new defensives, the hybrid heals and crap if you didn't have instant cc and people could position/los properly like in previous expansions you'd essentially never land a kill.

Previously i had link/NS/trinket. If i got cc'd and had to use one or two our opponents were doing well or i'd messed up. Now i seem to ALWAYS have something i can use. I don't need to position correctly most games because i need to follow up fears with hexes into a capacitor just to get a cooldown used by the other team, and if i do position correctly it doesn't make a blind bit of difference because i'll be sitting in something instant cast shortly anyway.

The wins we get don't even seem rewarding, everything already seems set out before the game begins and we're just going through the motions of cooldowns/dr's. There's very little "good play" to be commended because you can't fail to land or avoid most of the instant cc and peels. You can't build up decent pressure outside of some sort off cooldown/cc and the offensive cooldowns are so strong that you don't even need decent pressure to "not waste" them anyway.

So really, they've nearly successfully sucked out every bit of good decision/positioning and predictive play possible in this game.

Also i truly believe 90% of the posters on this forum could do a better job at balancing this stuff. Plus blizzard have essentially broken so much, their inability to want to backtrack on bad decisions or fix some of the simple things over the last few seasons lead me to believe we're stuck with this crap for a long while.

Here's hoping i'm wrong.

Edited by Korzul, 16 October 2012 - 12:21 AM.


#239 spaceship

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:51 AM

View PostKorzul, on 15 October 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

The game just feels "cheap"

Landing cc is now easier then ever, who needs good positioning, good pressure etc when you have stuff like blood fear/PoM ring/Psyfiend etc. This is an real problem because once it's a 3vs2 it's massively easier to land follow up cc.

I kind of feel the same way, especially with regard to positioning.

#240 Nadagast

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:19 AM

View PostNez, on 15 October 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

I think wow suffers from a very bad case of power creep.

I agree completely, power creep is like 80% of what's wrong with WoW.




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