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#41 Akumos

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 05:51 AM

View PostNadagast, on 11 October 2012 - 02:53 AM, said:

I was gonna write a big post about how bad Warlocks are right now, but Filo basically nailed it.  Affliction keeps getting tools to give it more and more dot uptime, while getting reduced dot damage.  It needs a big swing back in the other direction IMO.

Demo + Destro are all about dark soul gibs :(

I kinda wish they'd change the spriest playstyle a bit too, like add some ability to make you uninterruptable for 5-10 sec, or cast while moving, make DoTs hit harder and get more crit, nerf some other shit. They feel way too supportive atm. Dunno why they're shifting casters towards really boring gameplay

Edited by Akumos, 11 October 2012 - 05:52 AM.


#42 Instability

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:37 PM

View PostFilovirus, on 10 October 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

I ended up playing 50-60~ games of HLS and RLS on the level 90 Arena Pass last night, and I had a few thoughts.

1) BM Hunters - How did this get past... ALPHA? The first comp I tried was HLS, and I could not BELIEVE what I was seeing. I could be across the map in a CC and if my hunter popped his ZOO he would 100-0 something in 1-2 seconds, 2 seconds being a slower kill. No dots or damage from me whatsoever, while I sit in a full cyclone. There is no excuse for imbalances like that, other than Blizzard... being Blizzard I guess.

2) Mage control - With the dispel change, I think mages are grossly overpowered. A mage can sheep me, and start casting a sheep on my partner, so that as I get dispelled my partner gets to sit a full sheep. Alternatively, the mage can just sheep someone, have the healer dispel it, and then pop every one of his cds and deep + frost bomb something. I think something NEEDS to be changed about how mages work after the dispel change.

I actually didn't have a problem with their burst; it isn't anything different from what you could see from a mage in Cata. The damage could be stopped, and it seems like they have to cast to kill something. If I stop the casts, I can keep my team alive. The burst can be very high, but at least they have to CAST.

3) Warrior mobility/damage seems a bit overkill. I do not like how warrior mobility seems to be based on how well they will stick to mages or hunters. This means classes like warlocks and priests are -never- getting distance from a half decent warrior. I'm not sure where the problem lies with warrior mobility design, but I think this has always been an issue. While I do agree that warriors need a lot of their current tools to put up any sort of fight against mage teams, I also think this mobility is too much against classes without mage-level control.

4) Defensive cooldowns seem grossly overpowered for certain classes or comps. I played several games against Druid/Mage/Spriest, and it was actually the most impossible thing to kill anything. I am by no means claiming we played perfectly, but one of the games I remember our team played extremely well, and it was still -IMPOSSIBLE- to get a kill. We had a swap to the Druid (no ironbark or trinket or ice block) with a full fear on the priest, full hex on the mage, dance/demon soul swap to druid with a Haunt, but he LIVED!

If you are going for a kill on the Druid, you have to go through: Resto Leap (no idea what this is called lol), Life Grip, Barkskin, Ironbark, ICE BLOCK (words cannot describe...), Tree Form, mage peels (over-the-top with dispel change), priest off-heals, and LIFE SWAP????????????????

Random Thought: I do not like the fact that Unbound Will VT Fears you when used against Shadowpriests. Ex: I am feared and I have Vamp Touch on me, so I pop Unbound Will. I now get VT feared for a few seconds and then eat another CC afterwards. I'm not sure if this is intended, because Unbound Will does remove all debuffs, but I don't think it should VT fear or UA silence you for using it.

This is just one example, but it seems like classes have way too many defensive cooldowns and instant CC effects right now. Instant CC has got to go if this dispel change is going to be permanent.


5) Healer Mana - Doesn't matter, except maybe against Warrior/BM Hunter type comps, simply due to the imbalanced damage they do. This is the first season of the expansion, being played in -full- gear since this is the Tournament Realm, and mana does not matter. -IF- a healer somehow manages to go oom, and isn't a priest (since they don't seem like a real class atm), all he has to do is run behind a pillar and drink while his partner(s) use one of the million available defensive cds or instant ccs and he will be fine.

I think healer mana needs to be re-evaluated  or the only comps that exist will be comps that can 100-0 something in a few seconds, or comps that can CC a healer for a year.

6) Getting Kills - Feels a lot harder than it should be. It seems like the only things that end games right now, are broken cooldowns. Ex: Warrior damage with CDs up, BM Hunters unleashing a zoo (I don't even), etc. While I do think damage cooldowns + CC on a healer should be necessary to score a kill, I think it requires too much to get a kill right now. Survivability is simply too high.

7) The State of Affliction

Granted I have only played one night of MoP, the class feels more or less the same as it did in Cataclysm. I felt like I played the majority of the games well, and while not my best play, certainly well enough to get a feel for the class and arena in general.

Affliction damage, when taking current defensive cooldowns, healer cooldowns, and healer mana into account, is completely miserable. My dots were not critting for more than about 15-16k on 375-400k health pools. This is with FULL gear, gemmed and itemized pretty well (could be a tiny bit better I'm sure), and with Mastery reforged on every possible piece of gear. At level 85, my dots were critting for 8-10k on 140-150k health pools (this is also with haste reforge, not mastery). So essentially, our dots are doing about 70%~ more damage than they did at 85, and health pools are 150%~ larger than they were at 85. Additionally, every class has a lot more survivability and defensive cooldowns, including healers, and healers don't actually use mana.

As for the Affliction playstyle, Blizzard seems to be following the awesome trend of dumbing things down until warlocks don't actually have to do anything at all to put up full dots. Being able to Soulburn: Soul Swap full dots onto any target, 4 times (with glyph) in a row is... umm... what? In Cata, I thought warlocks were in a relatively good spot for getting dots up; Soul Swap had a 30 second cooldown, and you could use Fel Flame to refresh your UA. You still had to cast a significant amount to generate a high amount of pressure. Now, you don't actually ever have to cast to get your UAs up. In fact, I had a few games where I would pop Demon Soul and my on-use trinket, and Soulburn: Soul Swap dots on their -entire- team with 3 globals. I think this is a terrible direction for the class. Warlocks need to be required to cast a lot more, and their dots NEED to do significant damage. Malefic grasp spam with full dots during Demon Soul + on-use is good damage, but outside of that, Affliction is completely underwhelming.

TLDR: Unless something gets changed with healer mana, Affliction is going to need a significant amount of damage buffs to make the spec competitive. Should Affliction get the damage buffs that it needs, I also think Soulburn: Soul Swap needs to be either a) removed from the game or b ) redesigned.

I haven't had a chance to play around with Destruction or Demonology yet, so I am not going to make any comments on either of those specs. I have heard that they both do well, but I have a hard time believing Destro would do decently vs. any moderately coordinated 3s team. Getting a Chaos Bolt off at a crucial moment seems like it would be extremely difficult.

Thanks for reading, feel free to correct anything in my post. I just got MoP a few days ago, so I am not an expert by any means.


Couldn't have been said any better.

#43 Blackdawn

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:31 PM

yes u nailed it pretty much, just that it would add some more concerns about warriors atm.
with ranged silence, reflect on low cd, ranged aoe stun, charge on low cd, leap on moderate cd and their current dmg/burst and most importantly survivability with second wind..
its just super completly over the top while rogues for example are weaker in almoust anything compared

with the manapools not dropping (this is the worst that can happen in 2on2, making draws everywhere if someone not leaving before) and warriors locking down any caster while raping him the 2on2 bracket can be closed completly, which is very sad !
one life, one chance

#44 Nycto

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:44 PM

I take everything i've said about this season back, i felt fucking useless in arena facing mele cleaves, i provide nothing

#45 Rinolduus

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:28 PM

I agree with Filovirus on everything but one point:

I don't think warlocks don't need to cast right now. Sure you can soulburn soulswap dots on everything, but dots alone do no damage at all.
The only time affliction damage is close to comparable to other classes is when spamming malefic grasp on a fully dotted and haunted target. Although it is not a bad thing to need to cast to do damage, warlocks do not have the arsenal of tools a mage has to get casts off.

The Warlocks biggest strengh has always been that we were able to set up damage for kills BEFORE actually switching, thus being very hard to peel, because once people realize theres going to be a swap, it could already be to late to cc the lock.
This is pretty much gone now

#46 saffie

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 09:22 AM

Filo reallly nailed it, also when the game is so bursty warlocks matter less overall, we don't have to be buffed too much perhaps, but hunters, warriors, mages and hybrid healing needs to get nerfed, and then perhaps we will have longer than 30 second games where our dots matter.

Also it feels like when healers go oom they still heal a lot, no matter what class, this has to change too, we dont have burst so at least let us kill someone when the healer has literally 0 mana, healer passive mana regen + small heals is really enough to heal our full dots on everyone.

The most depressing thing though, is, apperantly affliction is good in pve. Earlier I thought "oh warlocks suck but whatever they do too little damage it will be fixed because of pve". But combination of succubus doing insane damage (which we cant use because we need the spell lock) compared to other pets and just sitting there being able to cast malefic grasp all game is apperantly enough to outdamage the other 2 specs.

I don't know really its so pointless to play right now...

#47 Hendie

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 09:51 AM

View PostNycto, on 11 October 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

I take everything i've said about this season back, i felt fucking useless in arena facing mele cleaves, i provide nothing

Maybe you should of actually played this season then instead of quoting everyone with L2P, LOL what ur team mates doing ect... :)

Edited by Hendie, 12 October 2012 - 09:52 AM.

www.twitch.tv/Hendiee

#48 Nycto

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 10:45 AM

View PostHendie, on 12 October 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Maybe you should of actually played this season then instead of quoting everyone with L2P, LOL what ur team mates doing ect... :)
Didn't tell anyone to l2p, but yes if they allow a mage for example to freely do what they want during trinkets, well... and i had already played a fair few games, i guess i just didn't get the ret/dk/x and that many beastcleaves.

#49 Domesauce

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:03 AM

Are we even supposed to use demon soul against mages? All I do is give them bloodlust for 19 seconds.

#50 Bonjourhihi

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:11 PM

demon soul should really be undispelable, it's one of the most important cooldown

Edited by Bonjourhihi, 12 October 2012 - 02:11 PM.


#51 mredwards

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 04:48 PM

View Postherahera, on 09 October 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

yep so i was right. hunter/melee/healer just basically runs around derping and gets a kill in less than 20secs every game. while my dots get dispelled non stop. p sure arena is a joke now

sounds like you are getting outplayed

#52 herahera

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:47 AM

View PostNycto, on 09 October 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

Get better partners/play better

I'm sorry this isnt an EU bg where 10 teams tie for r1 because none of them are actually any good

#53 Nycto

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:07 AM

View Postherahera, on 15 October 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

I'm sorry this isnt an EU bg where 10 teams tie for r1 because none of them are actually any good
Yes 10 way share thnx eu suckzzzzz

#54 Champz

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:25 AM

pls l2p dirty fags
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#55 herahera

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:26 AM

I think its safe to say that in general, arena is quite a joke right now (unless you are a hunter or warrior, in which case I suppose it's pretty fun seeing players get demolished at the touch of a button). It doesn't matter how well you play; there is always a chance for a hunter team to kill something in a random scatter shot. so far, I think rogues are probably the worst class, followed by warlocks. rogues can actually be killed now, and their damage is nowhere near other melees.

Healing is pretty broken too. Shaman friends of mine were mentioning that they can top someone from 10% to 100% in 1 lesser healing wave. But worst of all, I think the mechanic that really destroyed affliction this season, is the new dispel. Healers can basically stroll behind their respective pillars and clear all of a warlocks dots with a magical button. The result? he gets silenced for a teensie bit and takes ~22-23k damage (as of my current gear). considering he has a health pool of ~330+k, it's almost hardly a scratch. Quite a joke really.

But blizzard cannot afford to buff UA, because now every healer who wants to dispel a target afflicted with UA isn't taking a chance anymore, he is going to have a 100% chance to get silenced. so i guess blizz just decided to make UA dispel damage rather worthless.

Since warlocks do no damage at all as affliction, Most locks have turned to Destro now, but let's be honest... It's almost impossible to get a kill as destro (against a good team) unless it's on ring of valor. Especially if there is a good melee on you.

Most of my partners are just urging me to level my dk, because they don't want to play with a lock right now. Qing with a lock is pretty much an "insta loss", if i were to quote my friend.

Like i mentioned in my first post... the state of warlocks right now indeed make me sad. And to all the idiots who insisted that locks would be good at 90.. you probably have to eat your words.. Can barely use the words "good" and "warlock" in the same sentence now.

Edited by herahera, 15 October 2012 - 09:29 AM.


#56 saffie

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 07:09 PM

The saddest thing is every expanison same things are going to happen:
1) They will release beta, and do fuck all to fix anything related to pvp.
2) They will release the patch before the expansion, people will whine about how retarded some things are. (ie: hyrbid healing, second wind)
3) Majority will claim it will be fixed when you ---->Level/get gear/get more resi (these all come one after the other)
4) Nothing will be done about the issues, shut up and lets see when it really matters!
5) Season starts, some of the classes suck when others are one shoting.
6) Try to fix the issues but fail because you were supposed to do these things in the beta.
7) The classes who were owning get overnerfed or nerfed in the wrong way (ie: warriors in cata, reduced mobility and utility increased damage)
8) More inbalance.
9) We are never happy.
10) Still play the game.

#57 Smir

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:34 PM

View Postsaffie, on 15 October 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

10) Still play the game.

^^
alone for that i have to like you :)

Edited by Smir, 15 October 2012 - 08:34 PM.


#58 Nadagast

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:39 PM

I really think the game is in a state where good gameplay cannot be recovered without massive changes--changes that Blizzard will not implement.

The way that cooldowns interact with the structure of damage over time:
Doing X dps til you blow 5 CDs together, then doing 15X dps in your burst
This is just not fun, and I don't see Blizzard removing the amount of defensive+offensive cooldowns that they would need to in order to restore gameplay to a respectable state.  I can't punish people who are in idiotic positions at all, because I simply don't do enough damage without blowing CDs (and Affliction even with CDs isn't very high single target) to make a person actually have to fall back.

I miss Wrath where I could dot people who were way overextended and actually force them back.  Where, with good play, I could rot off targets while my Warrior hit the main target.  In Cata + MoP, because of a combination of more self healing and weaker dot damage, the most I can rot anyone to is 90%.  It's boring, it lacks flavor, it's not Warlocky.  I am a simple, (press my triple-DoT button and spam MG, super complicated and fun damage dealing style, right?) gimped damage dealer who occasionally tickles off targets to 90% hp.

And I say this as someone who usually tries to be optimistic about the game.  But the state of Warlocks (and many other things about arena) right now just kinda makes me sad about the future of WoW arenas.

Edited by Nadagast, 16 October 2012 - 09:54 PM.


#59 saffie

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:45 PM

What also bothers me is our 90 level talents, they are all so useless while other classes get shit like avatar or heart of the wild.

It is rare that all 3 of a tier is complete shit, wish they would have unbound will on that tier or something.

#60 Wallirik

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 12:42 AM

yeah the lvl 90 talents are definitely an enormous letdown.




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