Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help

The Arena Junkies PvP interview with Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street


  • Please log in to reply
133 replies to this topic

#81 Dakkrothy

Dakkrothy
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Outland
  • Misery
  • Posts: 1118
  • Talents: Destruction 1/2/1/2/2/2
  • RBG: 2484

Posted 20 September 2012 - 05:42 AM

View PostVioz, on 19 September 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

Posted Image


ROFL

#82 ardnut

ardnut
  • Junkies
  • Orcclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 3298
  • Talents:
  • RBG: 1743

Posted 20 September 2012 - 07:18 AM

I think you guys are being very harsh on Hilde... he asked a lot of important questions but he can't force ghostcrawler to answer them.  He gave vague answers and there is nothing Hilde can do to stop that.  All he can do is ask the question.
* RBG/PvP Guild * Stormscale EU * Recruitment Thread * Click Below *
Posted Image

#83 Mazdak

Mazdak
  • Junkies
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • EU-Shattrath
  • Sturmangriff / Charge
  • Posts: 132
  • Talents: Subtlety

Posted 20 September 2012 - 09:28 AM

View Postkannetixx, on 20 September 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

you clearly do not understand sc2 .. its a lot more than just "killing buildings.."

there are specific timings that you need to look for - understand why your opponent is doing what  at XXX time .. is he getting gas a little too early or is he not? .. did you scout completely to prevent your base from being over run by 11/11 rax - 6pool - 4gate .. yatta yatta is he/she going to transition into a certain build out of what they are currently using if so What and how do you figure that out?

there is a lot more to sc2 than just that my friend .. you can go into deal with sc2 just as much as wow has and sc2 is way more complex than wow in terms of design and gameplay

i watched WoW tournaments back with MLG when hafu and those few players played in tournaments and i had no fucking clue what was going on but as someone mentioned before Commentators help tremendously in delivering a game and helping the novice players understand what is going on.. SC2 Casters are GREAT at doing this they explain what a certain build is .. why is being built - what its going to actually do .. they explain upgrades and everything in between to keep the audience involved in it and that is what WoW needs and that is what it certainly has among the number of players who are pretty great casters.


using your example you can simply say RMP vs TSG Trip DPS to a novice player
RMP Stands for Rogue Mage Priest
Basically the priest needs to survive the other teams cooldowns or else hes dead his team really needs to help him here ..
novice asks why - the armor they wear is weaker compared to the damage the other team can do.

pretty simple explanation to someone who has no idea wtf they are watching but can now understand simply .. dont let the white bar character die to the brown / pink / red.

if they have an interest further than that .. then you can go into deeper details

for someone who has never watched a certain sport what is the general thing someone mentions? Team A vs B and you give a general explanation of the gameplay .. you don't bombard them with plays and all of that and they can still enjoy the game.. it just has to be spectator friendly and have a little information to help some one along the way and it becomes watchable.

You clearly don't understand what I tried to say.

If you want to teach someone that has NEVER watched SC2 before, you don't explain him everything about buildorders and timings. Also, it actually is the main goal to destroy the buildings of the enemy. Like, instead of posting a wall of text, telling me that I'm wrong you should've just read what I wrote.

I only wrote about the goal itself, not about the way to actually achieve that goal. If you wanna explain football/soccer to someone, you don't say "Yeah you gotta watch out for that 4-3-3 because the winger can cross supergood with the 10." You just say: "You need to score as many goals as possible within 90 minutes."

And now tell me what you'd prefer to watch (casters left out)

SC2, where you have an idea of what the guy with the little dudes is trying to do against the guy with little insects.

WoW, where you only see 6 people jumping around while losing HP/Mana without having any clue of what's actually happening.


WoW arenas is just to complex to explain it to a newbie + if you don't know what happens, it is EXTREMELY boring.

Both SC2 and LoL on the other hand are extremely noobfriendly. You don't need to know why dude A is doing a timingpush with marines/medivacs, you don't need to know how many cs the midlaner has, you don't even need to know the abilities of the champions - yet you can still understand the BASICS superfast and super easy. And this allows LoL to grow ridiculously fast and getting more viewers than fucking MLB games on ESPN.

Edited by Mazdak, 20 September 2012 - 09:28 AM.


#84 WildeHilde

WildeHilde
  • Content Editors
  • Curse Premium
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • EU-Aegwynn
  • Blutdurst
  • Posts: 2045
  • Talents: Combat 1/1/2/1/1/0
  • RBG: 2215
  • LocationSouthern Germany

Posted 20 September 2012 - 10:06 AM

Actually it's not that hard. Kill one of the enemy team. Health bars are an easy indicator. One problem I agree with is the amount of icons to follow. We try to create an UI that makes watching easier. After Vadrak has completed the base version with frames and cooldowns we may add visual effects for events and audio additions, like the LoL client does.

Starcraft is a good spectator sport and I love to watch it, but it is different from WoW. What we need is good tutorials that teach viewers what actually happens. This is one thing every tournament organizer should do. The problem is bringing the viewers on the same page. If you watch soccer on TV and know about the game - the commentators suck and the post game analysts bring the good stuff. On the other hand, much like soccer, WoW has a huge player-base. What we need is to bring new players in and introduce qualifiactions and tournament ratings instead of making invititationals only. This is what made SC:BW and later on SC:2 such a great E-Sport. This is one thing we actually work on, automated tournaments where everyone gets the chance to qualify. Ladders will never be as exciting as tournaments.

#85 Mazdak

Mazdak
  • Junkies
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • EU-Shattrath
  • Sturmangriff / Charge
  • Posts: 132
  • Talents: Subtlety

Posted 20 September 2012 - 10:09 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 20 September 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Actually it's not that hard. Kill one of the enemy team. Health bars are an easy indicator. One problem I agree with is the amount of icons to follow. We try to create an UI that makes watching easier. After Vadrak has completed the base version with frames and cooldowns we may add visual effects for events and audio additions, like the LoL client does.

Starcraft is a good spectator sport and I love to watch it, but it is different from WoW. What we need is good tutorials that teach viewers what actually happens. This is one thing every tournament organizer should do. The problem is bringing the viewers on the same page. If you watch soccer on TV and know about the game - the commentators suck and the post game analysts bring the good stuff. On the other hand, much like soccer, WoW has a huge player-base. What we need is to bring new players in and introduce qualifiactions and tournament ratings instead of making invititationals only. This is what made SC:BW and later on SC:2 such a great E-Sport. This is one thing we actually work on, automated tournaments where everyone gets the chance to qualify. Ladders will never be as exciting as tournaments.


While every soccerplayer cares about soccer, not every WoW player cares about Arenas.

In order to achieve success with tournaments, you need to have Blizzard on your side. They need to show stuff like that either ingame or in the launcher - like Riot does.

#86 WildeHilde

WildeHilde
  • Content Editors
  • Curse Premium
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • EU-Aegwynn
  • Blutdurst
  • Posts: 2045
  • Talents: Combat 1/1/2/1/1/0
  • RBG: 2215
  • LocationSouthern Germany

Posted 20 September 2012 - 10:34 AM

Well Ghostcrawler said in this very interview that he thinks linking and announcing tournaments from the launcher is a cool idea. That will help to convince the community/pr team. This sentence is the most important in the whole interview in my opinion. I think for most people tournaments would be interesting, but they tune in, understand nothing, see still screens and have to wait because someone f***ed up resetting their IP and turning of Skype. If tournaments want to be entertaining there can be no downtime. You need material for downtimes prepared and not improvise if something goes wrong. Also the casters explained too little for a long time.

But most importantly. The arena scene needs to understand that the guys without junkie status make the tournaments succesful. Look at Team Liquid for an example. High rated players discuss with newbies and those that stay in gold or even silver for two years straight. The current arena scene is very elitist and we need to make the whole playerbase feel welcome.

#87 Saikx

Saikx
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Ravencrest
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 910
  • Talents: Arcane 0/0/0/2/0/2
  • 2v2: 2137
  • 3v3: 2624
  • RBG: 2184

Posted 20 September 2012 - 11:46 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 20 September 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

But most importantly. The arena scene needs to understand that the guys without junkie status make the tournaments succesful. Look at Team Liquid for an example. High rated players discuss with newbies and those that stay in gold or even silver for two years straight. The current arena scene is very elitist and we need to make the whole playerbase feel welcome.

I couldn't agree more on this, I see like maybe 5-10% of the highrated streamers actually answer the guys that whisper to them, the rest just ignores them and they all act like they're gods. And they ofcourse act like they don't know anyone of the other highrated players even when they got their ass whooped 1 billion times by them. Hydra and Minpojke come to mind as prime examples, as many other highrated streamers ofcourse. Just calling out the most obvious dickheads.

Why do you think someone like Ocelote has a ton of viewers everyday? Because he is the best player? Hell no. He just interacts with his viewers and tries to answer as many questions as possible and when he gets asked about another pro player, it doesnt go like: "WHO IS THIS HUEUHE FKING RANDOM PROBABLY XD", but he actually gives his honest opinion.

People ranting about communities in DotA/HoN or other games, just dont know about the elitist WoW retard scene.

Edited by Saikx, 20 September 2012 - 11:52 AM.

Posted Image

Visit my stream: http://www.twitch.tv/saikx


#88 Helia

Helia
  • Members
  • Posts: 19

Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:29 PM

First of all, I think it's a good interview.
GC is GC, we all know he answers specific questions with vague answers. So thanks for the effort, the questions were pretty good for a limited-time interview. But... You need 2 people to make an interesting interview.

Regarding WoW-eSport, I might be the perfect example of an old WoW player only watching arenas at Blizzcon without understanding any move.
Whereas I was enjoying SC2 matches even if I only played the campain and nothing else. I was pretty much thinking the same way Mazdak (or Ariel Robben ? Is that you ????) does.

But when starting to play arenas a bit, I began to understand how deep the game mechanics are and how enjoyable a great arena match can be when you actually understand what the players are doing.

I can remember Azael yelling "Hex by Flubbah, Ohhhhh it was melted by Zunniyaki. What a play !". That's typically the kind of comment WoW e-sport needs for newbies : "Wow, I do have shadowmelt on my NE priest ! Never managed to use it to avoid CC, it's definitely a good move !"

This is what WoW needs I think. Legibility. All actors should be involved into it. From players (see below) to audience, via casters, UI, ...

Some ideas among lots of others :

1. More entertainment before, during and after tournaments.

1.1. Forecasts
Isn't it what makes sport shows so entertaining ? People playing the game in their mind before it actually happens ? Even fighting about what's gonna happen.

1.2. Interact with viewers
Commentators should answer questions regarding the matches between the matches. And should be interviewed to talk about game balance or other topics between events, not between matches. Questions should be selectionned by some moderators to fill in the gaps.
1.3. More interviews, but AFTER the event
Not only immediate interviews. Just like sport, on the spot, people may be confused, disgusted, ... More "reviews" a couple of days after the event. "Back to Bleached Bones day 1 with Khuna", ...

1.4. Continue talking about events after the events :
Player side : on Youtube player's channel, their PoV about the tournament, that or that game. What went wrong ? Why ? (Talbadar does that I think). In player's videos, like Flubbah did, use live comments, tell people watching your video that it was in this or that tournament, that took place on that day, ...
Community side : debrief, talk, organize "remember that match ?" kind of games. Tell people from your guild, make forum threads. Explain stuff there, don't only expose your opinion.
Blizzard side : not only one piece of news before the event. Debrief like "missed that fantastic game between Evil Geniuses and Rock Paper Ret ? VoDs are there : ...". Launcher news is a great idea too.


2. Involve community

2.1. One place, one platform
=> everything must be found in there AND WELL ORGANIZED. Who won this tournament ? When did it take place ? Who fought who ? I'd like to have stats like basketball : "how many times did Khuna's RLS win against Talb's Shadowplay ?"
A who's who, I could find, with one player's name, his accomplishments (on live like AJ helmets but also tournaments). Where can I find the VoD ? When is the next tournament ? How many tournaments have been played on live and how many on TR ? Who's streaming right now (AJ does that pretty well) ? Where can I find this player's videos ? I think AJ is the most relevant platform for all of that. Only some of the features I described are missing.

2.2. Talk, talk, talk, don't flame.
So much crap is written down the official forums "I hate watching RLS games, that's so boring". Yes, indeed, it might be your PoV, but this is so bad advertisement for e-sport. Don't forget newbs like me who are interested in but a bit reserved are reading these forums and could definitely say "OK it's never gonna be e-sport, you have the right comp, you win no matter what", that's unfair for lots of players I think. Pay attention to what you say on public forums, as if you always were speaking in the name of the whole PvP community.

2.3. Be helpful.
Lots of people are more thankful than you think.You helped someone, gave him some advice, I'm pretty sure when he's gonna see you organize some event he'll try to help you back to get more viewers.

To be continued...


Forgive me for the wall of text, I never posted on AJ 'cause I don't feel legit to (and I'm obviously not). Here we're talking about the new-to-esport-people, and that's exactly what I am. That's why I think this huge post can be helpful to make the arena scene look better to everyone's eyes.

Maybe that's neither the right place nor the right time. My apologies.

EDIT : so many grammar errors... I'm so sorry my English is so poor.

#89 khuna

khuna
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Outland
  • Misery
  • Posts: 346
  • Talents: Assassination 1/1/2/1/1/0
  • RBG: 1942

Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:39 PM

View PostMazdak, on 20 September 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:


3 races with ~20 Buildings & 20 units per race - Goal: Destroy the main buildings of the enemy.

12 races, 10 classes ~30-40 abilities per class - Goal: Kill the enemies


Lol, if you think destroy the main buildings of the enemy is all you have to understand when you watch an sc2 game then you are clueless

#90 WildeHilde

WildeHilde
  • Content Editors
  • Curse Premium
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • EU-Aegwynn
  • Blutdurst
  • Posts: 2045
  • Talents: Combat 1/1/2/1/1/0
  • RBG: 2215
  • LocationSouthern Germany

Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:43 PM

Awesome post Helia. Many of the points you mentioned are things we want to include in the tournaments we are planning to do with MoP.

#91 ardnut

ardnut
  • Junkies
  • Orcclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 3298
  • Talents:
  • RBG: 1743

Posted 20 September 2012 - 01:47 PM

View Postkhuna, on 20 September 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Lol, if you think destroy the main buildings of the enemy is all you have to understand when you watch an sc2 game then you are clueless

I think this just proves saikx's point.
* RBG/PvP Guild * Stormscale EU * Recruitment Thread * Click Below *
Posted Image

#92 Mazdak

Mazdak
  • Junkies
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • EU-Shattrath
  • Sturmangriff / Charge
  • Posts: 132
  • Talents: Subtlety

Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:09 PM

View Postkhuna, on 20 September 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Lol, if you think destroy the main buildings of the enemy is all you have to understand when you watch an sc2 game then you are clueless


That's all you need to know when you watch it for the first time. You don't need to know everything about specific buildorders, timings and counters. You don't need to understand why Infestor/Baneling is good against Marines. You will learn that while watching the game/s.

You won't learn anything while watching an arenagame tho, because you have NO idea of what's happening if you don't already know a lot about the game.

There are thousands of people that watch SC2/LoL tournaments even tho they aren't playing the game. There isn't one person that watches WoW tournaments but doesn't play arena or at least played it before.


And now, tell me how you would explain the GOAL of SC2 to someone that has never heard of it before. You would simply say "You need to destroy the buildings of the enemy"
Same for LoL - "You need to destroy the enemies Nexus".

Can't be that hard to understand that goal =/= the way you accomplish it

#93 WildeHilde

WildeHilde
  • Content Editors
  • Curse Premium
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • EU-Aegwynn
  • Blutdurst
  • Posts: 2045
  • Talents: Combat 1/1/2/1/1/0
  • RBG: 2215
  • LocationSouthern Germany

Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:11 PM

The goal for arena would be to kill the enemy team?

#94 Mazdak

Mazdak
  • Junkies
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • EU-Shattrath
  • Sturmangriff / Charge
  • Posts: 132
  • Talents: Subtlety

Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:25 PM

View PostWildeHilde, on 20 September 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

The goal for arena would be to kill the enemy team?

As I said.

But no one would understand what's happening if one is watching wow arenas for the first time.

You'd need a completely new UI without all the numbers and flashing icons. It has to be noobfriendly.

Like, people need to get an idea of what's happening in less than a minute.


If one is watching LoL for the first time, he will figure out which team is ahead, who's who, and he will listen to commentators that explain a lot.

If one is watching WoW for the first time, he would see a jumping guy, flashing icons and a lot of numbers. He wouldn't even know who is in whose team, and the commentators wouldn't help when saying "HE DEATHED THE BLIND OMGOMG"

You need to pay so much attention to follow an arenagame, where as you can literally go brainafk while watching LoL.

#95 khuna

khuna
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Outland
  • Misery
  • Posts: 346
  • Talents: Assassination 1/1/2/1/1/0
  • RBG: 1942

Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:30 PM

View PostMazdak, on 20 September 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

That's all you need to know when you watch it for the first time. You don't need to know everything about specific buildorders, timings and counters. You don't need to understand why Infestor/Baneling is good against Marines. You will learn that while watching the game/s.

You won't learn anything while watching an arenagame tho, because you have NO idea of what's happening if you don't already know a lot about the game.

There are thousands of people that watch SC2/LoL tournaments even tho they aren't playing the game. There isn't one person that watches WoW tournaments but doesn't play arena or at least played it before.


And now, tell me how you would explain the GOAL of SC2 to someone that has never heard of it before. You would simply say "You need to destroy the buildings of the enemy"
Same for LoL - "You need to destroy the enemies Nexus".

Can't be that hard to understand that goal =/= the way you accomplish it

Yea wasnt talking about LoL but sc2, i think the viewing experience watching sc2 just to see who kills the opposite base first is the same as watching WoW's health & mana bars going up and down.

Quote

There are thousands of people that watch SC2/LoL tournaments even tho they aren't playing the game. There isn't one person that watches WoW tournaments but doesn't play arena or at least played it before.

edit : this isnt true btw

Edited by khuna, 20 September 2012 - 03:34 PM.


#96 Mazdak

Mazdak
  • Junkies
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • EU-Shattrath
  • Sturmangriff / Charge
  • Posts: 132
  • Talents: Subtlety

Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:39 PM

View Postkhuna, on 20 September 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

Yea wasnt talking about LoL but sc2, i think the viewing experience watching sc2 just to see who kills the opposite base first is the same as watching WoW's health & mana bars going up and down.



edit : this isnt true btw


So tell me how many people are watching WoW arenas that have never played it before. I don't know one. On the other hand, I know a decent amount of people that are watching SC2 but never played it once, because there are shoutcasters that put their focus on entertainment only. Someone like Dennis "TaKe" Gehlen for example.


And you still don't get my point. In order to understand what's happening, you don't need to know nearly as much about SC2 as you need for WoW. Even less for LoL, and that's why LoL has 250k+ viewers, SC2 70-100k and WoW 5k.

#97 devega

devega
  • Members
  • Posts: 79

Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:48 PM

View PostUdderly, on 20 September 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

Anyone who wonders why WoW wouldn't care about this community should just read some of the responses to this thread.  I truly hope many of you don't have such massive amounts of negativity in your real lives as well....
This so much.

The guy made a pretty solid interview considering the circumstances and GC's reluctance to give proper answers(but that's a given), and some people attack him like rabid dogs - without really coming up why it was bad or what it lacked.

#98 miKeifgf

miKeifgf
  • Members
  • Posts: 1

Posted 20 September 2012 - 03:51 PM

Anyone know what exactly was the response to this

"Why do the PvP trinkets have different stats? Mastery/Crit/Spirit for the Medallion and Battle Master, PvP Power for the on-use and proc trinkets?"


Thanks,

#99 khuna

khuna
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Outland
  • Misery
  • Posts: 346
  • Talents: Assassination 1/1/2/1/1/0
  • RBG: 1942

Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:01 PM

View PostMazdak, on 20 September 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

So tell me how many people are watching WoW arenas that have never played it before. I don't know one. On the other hand, I know a decent amount of people that are watching SC2 but never played it once, because there are shoutcasters that put their focus on entertainment only. Someone like Dennis "TaKe" Gehlen for example.
I knew a lot of my friends/other ppl when WoW was big at IEM / MLG.

Quote

And you still don't get my point. In order to understand what's happening, you don't need to know nearly as much about SC2 as you need for WoW. Even less for LoL, and that's why LoL has 250k+ viewers, SC2 70-100k and WoW 5k.
That isnt certainly why, and i think that isnt true (for sc2, dno much about LoL this game doesnt interrest me at all), like i said before i don't th ink understanding health bars going up & down is harder than understanding who has the bigger army or who's hatch will get sniped.
As i don't think understanding that a healer is in a crowd control and that a kill opportunity is here is harder to understand than a vortex on 6 broodlords...

sry for my english

Edited by khuna, 20 September 2012 - 04:02 PM.


#100 Mazdak

Mazdak
  • Junkies
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • EU-Shattrath
  • Sturmangriff / Charge
  • Posts: 132
  • Talents: Subtlety

Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:13 PM

View Postkhuna, on 20 September 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

I knew a lot of my friends/other ppl when WoW was big at IEM / MLG.


I obviously wasn't talking about friends and family. And yes, there were people that tuned in to look what's going on there, but most of them didn't stayed.

Quote

That isnt certainly why, and i think that isnt true (for sc2, dno much about LoL this game doesnt interrest me at all), like i said before i don't th ink understanding health bars going up & down is harder than understanding who has the bigger army or who's hatch will get sniped.
As i don't think understanding that a healer is in a crowd control and that a kill opportunity is here is harder to understand than a vortex on 6 broodlords...


I honestly do think that there's a huge difference between super obvious stuff like a complete army disappearing in a dark hole, and a non visible CC on the healer, when it's very hard for outstanding people to even recognize who's the heal.

It's just not entertaining to just see the health bars going from almost nothing to full and vice versa, where as a big 200/200 fight with tanks, lazer shooting robots and a swarm of zerglings is entertaining.


Quote

sry for my english

You're welcome.

Edited by Mazdak, 20 September 2012 - 04:13 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

<