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#1 WildeHilde

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:44 AM

After playing quite some time as Mistweaver on beta I want to start a discussion here.

Helpful thread to find out about mechanics: Mistweaver Healing Compendium on the Elitist Jerks forum


1.) Monks have huge burst healing capabilities. Maybe Paladins are on the same level, but the healing per second when using Soothing Mist and Surging Mist is huge. Revive and Surging Mist with Thunder Focus Tea heal for 140k non-crits.

2.) Monks have the problem of control that breaks on damage (Paralysis) and having DRs with many classes. So far I tested rogues, shadow priests and mages as partners and like neither of them really. It seems like classes that have CC which does not break on damage (Xuen, Chi Wave etc.) and does not share DRs with disorients are good ideas as partners. So far destruction warlock, warrior, dk, maybe shamans look good as partners. Dot classes like Affliction locks, fire mages and shadow priests make using Paralysis pretty hard.

3.) Xuen is insane damage wise and except Paladins no healer comes close in regards to damage output.

So, my questions to other monks are: What classes did you find to be pairing well with Mistweavers?
Do you think Mistweavers will be the best healers for 2.5 DPS rush down comps or is a control or pressure heavy play style also viable?

I will collect information on mistweaver monks and write a preliminary guide, if no one else is working on one. If you are working on a guide and need help to test mechanics - let me know.

#2 phunk

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:06 PM

Mistweaver, ret pally warrior should do it :), or add a hunter instead of ether of the dps and you are set to go, at least in teory

Edited by phunk, 24 September 2012 - 09:07 PM.


#3 WildeHilde

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:36 PM

Two melees is a tough choice. I would prefer something like Warrior/EleShaman/Monk for the additional utility, like double freedom.

#4 phunk

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:40 PM

the talent palys got offers double freedom aswell, they can use it two times before it gets a cd

#5 Jentry

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:06 PM

Thanks for the input, Hildegard!  I am very interested in reading your future Monk healing guide.  The little bit of informtion you shared re: DRs is already helpful.

I'm currently level 20 and wondering whether my time is well spent getting my monk to level 90 to heal in arenas.  I'm also interested in trying out the challenge mode 5 man dungeons as either a healer or tank.  I know that is beyond the scope of this forum, but I'm just throwing that out there:)

I haven't played WoW with any real purpose since arena season six.  Can someone please give me a general summary of how monks heal in comparison to the classes we are already familiar with?  Is a monk an almalgamation of a resto druid (mobility) plus paladin (burst heals, if that's what you call it)?

What I am really interested in is getting a general idea of how a monk healer may play in arenas at level 90.  My frame of reference is, of course, the other healers in-game pre-MoP.

I've played a resto druid, a holy pally, a warlock and a mage in arenas.  Thanks for the input, all; it is much appreciated.  Cheers.

Edited by Jentry, 04 October 2012 - 05:09 PM.


#6 WildeHilde

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:34 AM

The main issue is: you need to be in melee range to be effective for many spells (Leg Sweep, Expel Harm, Spinning Crane Kick, Tiger Palm,  Spear Hand Strike, untalented Paralysis) but you have zero defensives against CC except stuns with Dematerialize. Roll is pretty slow and you can be cc'ed will using Roll, the teleport is casted and can be interrupted. While being pressured Healing Sphere is the best healing spell. You can do 50k+ HPS without casting (without generating Chi, too, however). The efficient way to heal is to use things that generate Chi and spend as much Chi as possible. The spike healing is either Soothing + Surging Mist + Revival or spamming Healing Sphere.

Currently my idea is to not go for spirit but hard and dirty burst heal + damage. Go in, pop onUse + Xuen, cc with Leg Sweep and retreat before the counter CC can be applied. Trinketing a stun gives you 2.5 seconds of immunity to any spell cast on you. Add 4-piece Thunder Focus Tea + 2x Soothing/Surging Mist and Revival and you have five seconds in which you can counter heal anything that can enter an arena. After 30 seconds you lose momentum. This means - go for PvP Power and not Spirit for gems, roll in and kill stuff. You need classes that can kill stuff without a long setup and have solid CC. Rogues, Hunters, Warriors are good examples.

Monks cannot compete with Druids or Shamans after the 30 second mark. They have more CC, better regen, heal for more once our spike heal is gone. Monk is like a priest was for a long time. You have to outplay your opponents in order to compete as soon as the enemies understand things like Dematerialize and Diffuse Magic.

Once gear is better we could have a real good mana regen and switch between Soothing / Renewing from distance and going in to burst and cc. In 2v2 it is possible to play for a long time but with the current burst longlivety does not seem like a valid option for Monks at all. Means we need TSG-like comps but with only one melee. Warrior/Ele Shaman/Monk, Rogue/Mage/Monk, Rogue/BM Hunter/Monk or Warrior/BM Hunter/Monk look good.

#7 Jentry

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:57 AM

Fantastic- this is the general kind of summary I've been looking for.  I know that we are early in the expansion and so many things can change, but it is nice to learn some of this before spending (precious) time leveling up a monk.

I've always loved druid healing/cc, so maybe I'll stick with that for now and wait to see how things shape up for monks.  I'm not talking about waiting to see what the flavor of the month is- I'm talking about waiting to see if the monk healing class is actually FUN to play.  Thanks again Hildegarde.

If you have any toons on Illidan, I'll send a 10 gold tip your way, loololo.

edit: nvm, you play on EU!!!

Edited by Jentry, 05 October 2012 - 02:58 AM.


#8 WildeHilde

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:10 AM

The PvP Power nerf really hurts monks. On beta monks did damage like WotLK priests. Now the role is different. EJ theorycrafters still think monks excel at AoE healing by "Fistweaving" meaning doing melee damage to heal the party up. Problem is the ramp up time for it to be effective (not talking about the risk of going into melee range) with 2x Blackout Kick and 3x Tiger's Palm. The other role we have is to outburst the damage warriors, bm hunters and mages bring currently. With Healing Sphere and Revival we have the strongest heals per second in the arena and I feel I can potentially heal absolutely everything if my team mates are able to walk over the Healing Spheres but after the 60 second mark the mana is gone (especially with healing sphere not creating Chi).

The level 90 talents are also a bit odd. Xuen used to be a bm pet on crack when playing on beta and could pretty much solo enemy players, now it feels more like the best way to break crowd control. Same thing with Chi Torpedo and Rushing Jade Wind only seems viable in RBGs. As soon as enemy players have learned to avoid Crackling Jade Lightning Knockbacks, Z-axis teleports and bursting into Dematerialize the only real strength we seem to have over other healers is the insane burst healing capabilities without casting we bring to the table.

Would be interested if anyone developed a succesful melee healing style in arenas or if you mostly play back and control with Deadly Reach. Also Tier 2 talents (Chi Wave opening CC is so annoying) are something I found no real good solution to.

So far I have been stacking PvP Power and mostly play with burst comps that are able to win within the 60 second mark. Being Gnome helps with the mana.

Also as it is Strand of the Acient weekend: Tiger's Lust works on the siege machines. Makes winning pretty fast and the best way to collect honor.

#9 Manath

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:56 PM

i didnt play more than 2s this season. but 2s is nearly impossible as monk. i play monk/warrior and the only thing we face is restodruid/warrior, holypala/warrior, or some crazy 2 dps shit (problem there is that a hybrid can play gay and oom me lol). and there is no way to compete against restodruids or holypalal. and yes, i know 2s isnt balanced, but i dont think there is so much different in 3s. i feel like a castrated paladin. nothing more.

#10 Xessi

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 02:54 AM

I've played some SP/Affli Lock/MW Monk and it feels really strong, if you compare it to cataclysm shadowplay, the weakness of that comp was meleecleaves zerging your shaman but with the mobility monks have, you can only die if you fuck up imo - I also have the big heals to keep my team up vs KFC or any meleecleave with a warrior.

I recommend other mistweaver monks to try it out, it's a lot of fun to play too imo
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#11 WildeHilde

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:46 AM

Solid idea Xessi. Like it. I tried s-priests as partner but only with a melee as third.

#12 Emoeritz

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 01:23 PM

Is there any way to control Xuen (Battlecat 90 talent)?

As WW there wasn't much of a problem. The cat would attack whatever I'm attacking.
My problem as WM is, that in most cases I'm not really attacking anything and when I summon Xuen he's passive and runs towards me till I attack something with like jade lighting or something. (which will cost me another global)
I've tried some macros (from my DK for summon gargoyle) but nothing worked so far.

Any ideas? Maybe I'm doing something terribly wrong, but this thing is bugging me and I haven't found a solution yet. ^.~

#13 Manath

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 02:42 PM

no, xuen is a stupid cat as mistweaver. the only thing he masters is the fact, that he breaks every cc on the enemyteam. i dont know how it works, but it wont attack my "first attack target" forever after i summon him, sometimes he dashes randomly through the arena and hitting everything

#14 Emoeritz

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:19 PM

Exactly what I feared. :(

But even if battlecat pretty much sucks, it's still the best option out of the lvl 90 talents, in my opinion.
Rushing Jade Wind is a 'skillshot' and not really suited for the fast paced arena games, but I can see its use in RBG zergs.
Chi Torpedo could be an alternative, but you'll literary never use a roll charge for a measly ~22k heal.The only positive side effect is that you heal yourself when you're kiting.

So, I'll stick with battlecat, even though it has several negative aspects. The burst and the heal through eminence just feels better than the other options.
You can correct me on this hypotheses anytime.

I feel like sharing my random thoughts for other talents and stats as well, even if this board is pretty much dead. Maybe someone will read and contribute to it after all.

Tiger's Lust vs Celerity. TL looks so great on the paper, but the short range is such a downer. I often encounter the problem that I'm simply not in range to cast it on my teammates (even worse in RBG). It might still be better than Celerity, but when I have to kite a lot I prefer more stacks and the shorter CD on Roll.

Chi Tier. Chi Burst is most likely out of competition right from the start. A 30k heal that has a cast time, nope.
More interesting is the choice between Chi Wave and Zen Sphere. The later is, sadly enough, a better HoT than Renewing Mist and it has a secondary effect when cast again. (in 3s, exploding the sphere might be a waste of chi) Total heal with exploding right before the last tick would be approximately 90-100k and you can only have one sphere at any given time. /sad
Chi Wave should have the highest heal per Chi and heal per sec from these 3 talents. One cast (friendly target as first target) when getting off all bounces would roughly be a 100k+ heal. Only problem is, you can't control this skill and I'm not sure about how intelligent this skill is. It prefers wounded targets over toped ones, but how about enemies in cc? This could be its downfall and I haven't tested this yet.
Right now I think both abilities are great, but I like Chi Wave more, in most cases I assume that it will bounce between my heal target and its focus target and won't break any cc's, but I could be wrong and this would make this skill very unreliable.

Chi Brew is king, I can see the use of Power Strikes and that it would generate more chi than the brew but you'll rarely hit something in melee and 4 chi on demand is just better. (I don't see any use for Ascension, not even in PvE, you're never maxed out on chi)

CC Tier, In my opinion Deadly Reach is the best ability on this tier. It just makes Paralysis so much more usable and you're less predictable. (without, you have to roll to you target and he'll most likely know what you're up to)
Sometimes against cleave teams I prefer Leg Sweep, just to buy me some time, but it feels situational and depends on team comp. (no need to stack DR when you're playing with a mage or a lock)
For Charging Ox Wave I only see it used in RBG, just way to unreliable for 3s or arena in general.

Dampen Harm vs Diffuse Magic, here  I'm not really sure what's better. In most cases something gets bursted down in arenas, so Dampen might be better but DM is like a shield wall against casters with a neat effect.
Choice most likely depends on the enemies comp.

Okay, more random thoughts or more like questions that keep plopping up in my head...

Stat priority.Right now I reforge to crit/spirit, haste and mastery is just worth nothing for us.
For gems I go for PvP power, Int and some resilience. but I saw a monk that focuses on spirit instead of PvP power and it seemed that he could even beat a Rsham manawise. Any1 made some experience with spirit gems? Is the loss of healing power through losing PvP power worth it? I'm tempted to change my gems, cause losing the mana war after you outhealed the burst is no fun.
Opinions?

Last thing I can come up with, has anyone ever tried to heal via dmg or tried to burst with the team? Without any theory crafting I assume that a staff as weapon would be the best choice for this (due to missing offhand for dmg), but does it work?
I rarely see myself in melee range but sometimes it would be great to contribute to the teams burst and with enough spirit our combat reg + mana tea would compensate the mana we spent on using jab.
(another thing, did someone tried stance dance :o I assume not, cuz we lose nearly all passives when sitting in tiger, just curious)

Sorry, for the wall of text. I just wanted to share and hopefully someone will answer and start a discussion or share experience.

#15 WildeHilde

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:49 PM

Spirit is good as soon as you can withstand the burst damage. As resilience scales better than damage we will use once everyone has more gear.

Chi Wave is godly, but requires a lot of attention to positioning, especially when using Paralysis. Same thing with Xuen. It's possible to keep it on the target, but it requires micro management.

Regarding stance dance: It can be highly beneficial in low mana situations to put up Healing Spheres or use Expel Harm. In early beta you needed to stance dance for Spear Hand Strike.The lack of hit and expertise makes damaging moves a gamble however. Currently arena is too fast paced to really use it effectively, but it can be a decent way to generate and spent Chi. Fun fact: The healing and damage increase is applied to the moment they hit. Chi Wave can have different bonusses on each tick.

Diffuse magic can be fun, especially if you can throw back the effects and fearie fire a druid that wants to use Displacer Beast for example or get the enemy healer to dispel UA or VT.

Mistweavers have a huge skill-cap. This spec has so much potential.

#16 Fadezz^

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:22 AM

im leveling my monk and was looking through the glyphs the renewing mist one that makes it a 40 yard bounce has some potential especially if you are healing a wizard cleave, maybe drop the mana tea one since the other two seem pretty obvious must haves

#17 WildeHilde

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:22 AM

The problem with Renewing Mists is the low amount it heals without using Uplift constantly. And Uplift gets only really good if many targets are affected. Its advantage is that it works without LoS however. Really like it in RBGs but in arena I rarely find it useful. This AoE rotation of keeping Renewing Mist on CD, using Spinning Crane Kick for Chi Generation and Uplift +  Focus Thunder tea on CD gives insane amounts of AoE healing in PvE raids.

#18 Manath

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:33 AM

btw, how dumb is the fact, that i get feared if i use my instantheal against a shadowpriest comp? quite annoying...

e: or silenced against affli-comps.

Edited by Manath, 15 October 2012 - 08:37 AM.


#19 WildeHilde

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:42 AM

I hate that Zen Meditation only grounds damage spells and not Cyclone/Fear etc.

#20 Emoeritz

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:02 AM

Thanks a lot Hilde.


Concerning spirit, I forgot that I carry 2 PvP-power trinkets and that pretty much every other race is stuck with the spirit insignia. I changed my blue gems to spirit to make up for the spirit loss, maybe I'll go for more when I can finally play more 3s.
Besides that, I think we can out heal nearly every burst but our mana is shit afterwards, so spirit might be the way to go, more or less. (a balance must be maintained)


Zen med is one of these skills where the tool tip sounds way better than the actual skill is.


I'd like to test a lot of things and maybe I would even stream when I feel a little bit more comfortable about it, but I'm running short of arena mates / ppl who want to play with a monk or me.
It's kinda depressing right now, I don't know. (and all the lfg tools aren't that yielding tbh) /whiningoff :)

PS, I'd like to test the shadowplay, Xessi mentioned, sounds fun.

Edited by Emoeritz, 16 October 2012 - 12:04 AM.





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