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Rogue Nerfs

Was it too much?

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#1 Warrlokk

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 09:07 PM

Atm it feels like my rogue is literally unplayable. I've experimented with both Prep and Step in wargames and It feels terrible. When I can connect to a target with Prey on the Weak and dance, I do pretty much the same damage is pre-patch, but apart from that I'm useless compared to everyone else.

What are your opinions fellow rogues?
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#2 rob-hype

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 09:15 PM

In the current pre-patch combat seems to be the way to go. The amount of dmg it can do with its cds is quite insane.2x vanish and cloak with prep as well.
leeching poison cant be used or utilized properly until mists comes out with final tier of talents so I dont know exactly about MoP beta

Edited by rob-hype, 29 August 2012 - 09:16 PM.

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#3 varellz

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 10:14 PM

dmg is outside dance is crap
everyone kites you
everyone parrys everything
burst of speed bugs
deadly throw bugs
patch is shit.

#4 Honeyloopxd

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 10:23 PM

I tried some mutilate with burst of speed and it worked quite well. No MS tho since they removed the tripple poison talent >:(
SnD will pretty mutch be up 24/7 caus it resets with envenom so just try keep ruture going and the dmg seams to be OK for now.
Think MoP will change alot :)

#5 Redefined

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 10:23 PM

I expect it to be like the start of S9. Start off absolutely dog-shit but then get some fine tuning and be propelled back to the upper echelon. Think we'll be in a good spot at that point though. Was mainly all that retarded PvE gear in S11 that made Rogue's so hated tbh.
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Kzrs said:

I've never seen Redefined post anything dumb. +1

View PostXandyn, on 27 May 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

best Rogue on US

#6 subsidal

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 10:35 PM

i hope you're right.

#7 Warrlokk

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 10:36 PM

View PostRedefined, on 29 August 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

Was mainly all that retarded PvE gear in S11 that made Rogue's so hated tbh.

I can't agree more. All the fotm rogues rerolling for legendaries and playing with 60% PvE gear. Not like it was only rogues using PvE items right? Why did we get nerfed so hard....
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#8 WildeHilde

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 10:40 PM

BoS does not bug. You get either the freedom or the sprint, but not both of them unless you activate it twice.

This and a lot more stuff is in the rogue guide that is written at the moment.

#9 Warrlokk

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 10:55 PM

the only thing the Rogue guide should include is how to reroll BM hunter or Frost Mage.... This is a joke
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#10 Toinfinity

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 11:16 PM

Anyone know the Vanish stance #?

#11 cheersdog

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 11:22 PM

Honestly this class has been Shat on. I still can't find a decent spec to play with. DMg feels so low, mobility is horrid :(

#12 clusky

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 12:03 AM

did a few bgs and duels to try stuff out,

Mutilate feels very slow and the damage seems not that great, sub seems better and I've not had a chance to test combat yet
  • combat readiness and cloak of shadows do not share a cd anymore
  • feint with elusiveness is pretty dumb (no cd on feint and it only costs 20 energy)
  • burst of speed is very good and it's a tough choice between that or step (comp dependent)
  • without the deadly brew pvp set bonus leeching and paralytic poison are pretty poor atm
I tried a mastery reforge as sub and was surprised, I dueled a ret paladin with 66.77% pvp resil and during dance I was hitting in the area of 25k-30k ambush crits (my stats 17978 ap, 24.23% power, 54.63% mastery) but the main burst was from evi crits,

Posted Image

this was during find weakness (dance), There were more crits that I didn't screenshot but most were either just below 40k or just above (On a side note my rupture was ticking for 1.9k and critting for around 4k).  Outside of dance my damage seemed ok, mainly due to passive white/poison damage (helped my the 50% haste from SnD) my attack speed was 0.9 for both weapons.  hemo and backstab don't seem to hit for very much, usually in the area of 6-9k non crits.  

Overall damage feels lower, The main damage source seems to of shifted from backstabs and ambush and more towards evi crits.

I'll do some more testing tomorrow but if you haven't already I would recommend trying a mastery reforge for sub

Edited by clusky, 30 August 2012 - 12:13 AM.

Clustercluck said:

I'm sure your university doesn't appreciate you bloodlusting on their pianos

Kelarm said:

It's like trying to ride 3 horses with one ass.

#13 khuna

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 12:06 AM

I didn't play much so i can't rly tell but i think waiting until MoP before whining is the best thing to do, rogue were always shit in every patch before expansion (be4 wotlk + cata ) damage wise at least, more than other classes

#14 Redefined

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:07 AM

View Postclusky, on 30 August 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

did a few bgs and duels to try stuff out,

Mutilate feels very slow and the damage seems not that great, sub seems better and I've not had a chance to test combat yet
  • combat readiness and cloak of shadows do not share a cd anymore
  • feint with elusiveness is pretty dumb (no cd on feint and it only costs 20 energy)
  • burst of speed is very good and it's a tough choice between that or step (comp dependent)
  • without the deadly brew pvp set bonus leeching and paralytic poison are pretty poor atm
I tried a mastery reforge as sub and was surprised, I dueled a ret paladin with 66.77% pvp resil and during dance I was hitting in the area of 25k-30k ambush crits (my stats 17978 ap, 24.23% power, 54.63% mastery) but the main burst was from evi crits,

Posted Image

this was during find weakness (dance), There were more crits that I didn't screenshot but most were either just below 40k or just above (On a side note my rupture was ticking for 1.9k and critting for around 4k).  Outside of dance my damage seemed ok, mainly due to passive white/poison damage (helped my the 50% haste from SnD) my attack speed was 0.9 for both weapons.  hemo and backstab don't seem to hit for very much, usually in the area of 6-9k non crits.  

Overall damage feels lower, The main damage source seems to of shifted from backstabs and ambush and more towards evi crits.

I'll do some more testing tomorrow but if you haven't already I would recommend trying a mastery reforge for sub

Problem with what you said at the end, regarding the damage being swapped from our combo generators to Eviscerate is that there are so many things to keep up in MoP. You need SnD 24/7, Rupture as much as possible, and Recuperate situationally. Damage needs to be higher in the Rupture and BS/Hemo department.

Like Khuna (and I, previously) said, I won't be shedding any tears at this point. Blizzard will notice eventually and fix our damage accordingly. Sad thing is, we might have to go half a season with pretty underwhelming damage. Hopefully it's corrected sooner rather than later.

Everything else minus the damage tweaks seems pretty good in theory. I haven't put anything into practice yet however.
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Kzrs said:

I've never seen Redefined post anything dumb. +1

View PostXandyn, on 27 May 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

best Rogue on US

#15 Redefined

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:11 AM

View PostWarrlokk, on 29 August 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

I can't agree more. All the fotm rogues rerolling for legendaries and playing with 60% PvE gear. Not like it was only rogues using PvE items right? Why did we get nerfed so hard....

I honestly think this is where all the end-of-Cata Rogue QQ's were coming from. It was all the PvE accessible, including Rogues having access to Legendaries this time around. Like S4, Sub. Rogues had good survivability and thus could wear an abundance of non-PvP gear.

The difference between no PvE and a Legendary and/or Vial Rogue is night and day. It's like playing a heroic version of the class. Experienced this first hand. Damage without any of that was good, but not ridiculous. Basically where it should have been tbh.
------------------------------

Kzrs said:

I've never seen Redefined post anything dumb. +1

View PostXandyn, on 27 May 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

best Rogue on US

#16 clusky

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:42 AM

View PostRedefined, on 30 August 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

Problem with what you said at the end, regarding the damage being swapped from our combo generators to Eviscerate is that there are so many things to keep up in MoP. You need SnD 24/7, Rupture as much as possible, and Recuperate situationally. Damage needs to be higher in the Rupture and BS/Hemo department.

They did buff SnD and rupture duration's in the patch, 5 point SnD is 36 seconds and 5 point rupture is 24 seconds. So its a bit easier to keep them up but I agree with you, I'd like to see more damage in our combo point builders and less in evi.

Clustercluck said:

I'm sure your university doesn't appreciate you bloodlusting on their pianos

Kelarm said:

It's like trying to ride 3 horses with one ass.

#17 subsidal

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:43 AM

are you calling me fat?

#18 Jamal

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:05 AM

View PostHoneyloopxd, on 29 August 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

I tried some mutilate with burst of speed and it worked quite well. No MS tho since they removed the tripple poison talent > :(
SnD will pretty mutch be up 24/7 caus it resets with envenom so just try keep ruture going and the dmg seams to be OK for now.
Think MoP will change alot :)

You can use wound/crip since you don't need deadly for envenom anymore.

Unrelated; something small I noticed is that the hemo bleed cannot crit, thus not being able to grant you bonus combo points.  Not sure if this is intential or just a bug.

I really don't mind rog at the moment, really wanted to play mut but sub feels stronger at the moment.  Like everyone else has been saying it's hard to tell until we get to 90.

Something cool you guys might want to try is you can spam fan in stealth if you have the Subtefuge talent.  This could be useful for pulling out stealthys like mages and druids in arena.

#19 Jaadyn

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 02:07 AM

I'll say one thing for certain. I feel like rogues are faced with the toughest tier of talents between Prep/ShS/BoS.  For a few reasons.

We all can agree that rogues are one of the best control classes in the game, but this mainly comes from our utility as subtlety (dance, prep, ShS, HaT procs and deadly throw, throw proccing poisons, and previously no CD on shiv, and, well, our prior 70% snare from crip). A lot of that is gone now. We can't take both prep and step anymore. Burst of speed is AMAAAAZING... except for the fact that it cost half our energy bar and rogues are much less bursty than most other classes. Casters are extremely strong right now for a few reasons. They got huge survivability CDs, more tools to kite and hard CC with, and most of all, defensive dispels have an 8 second cooldown. That also hurts rogues.

^ So why is the 8sec dispel CD hurtful? Double fear from priest, million mage novas, multi fears from locks, etc. Rogues don't and won't put out more damage than those classes especially due to the amount of control they have and when we're forced into countless amounts of CC unable to control our character, derp derp. We have to take prep or burst of speed. I dunno... I just don't like it.

Give me 1 minute cloak back pl0x. Or reduce the energy cost on BoS. AND GIVE DEADLY THROW BACK AS A BASELINE ABILITY.   -_-

Edited by Jaadyn, 30 August 2012 - 02:08 AM.


#20 Milanah_6538907

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 07:32 AM

Just wait a bit and we'll get stronger the further we get into MoP. Rogues always were a class that scales really good with gear and especially with weapons so i can really see us coming back in S13/14 like we did last season. At the moment i would say that a huge factor that fucks us up quite heavily is that we lack a bit mobility. Yeah I know this sounds weird but its a fact. Burst of Speed is a nice ability, however, it's just giving us freedom OR the sprint, so even if the nova broke we're still slowed and can't connect to the target.
Speccing Shadowstep is no possibility here tbh because 24 seconds cd is just too much. Prep however seems to be quite good, with double CoS, double Vanish you can stick your target quite nicely. But it also depends heavily on what you're facing.

Another thing is that we only do good damage while dancing, not like it has been in Cata where we could just get Find Weakness up and do a ton of damage by just spamming Hemo/Backstab. Our damage now comes mainly from autohits and Eviscerate as i'm hitting pretty much everything for 40k+ with Eviscerate and only 25-30k Ambush.




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