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Preferred CC Chain


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#61 Neajane

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:22 PM

I play both a priest and a druid. There is almost no composition and matchup where the priest would be the stronger character.

Other healers underestimate how much of a problem it is to be the squishiest class against melee, and have no escape method from them. No bof. No cleanse. No abolish. No travel form. No bubble. No bop. No 115% bear form with feral charge. Not even JoJ-and-kite-with-runspeed-enchant. Just stand there limping around very slowly while you hope your team can do something before you die. Tell the truth now, which of you has ever watched the crippling poison debuff or hamstring timer like a hawk to see if there was a chance you might actually get to play?

Priests seem like hard targets because they are forced to stack resilience to the cap and stamina in other slot to combat this inherent glaring disadvantage. Other abilities suffer. My full s2 priest has 300 less +healing than my druid, less than half the mp5, and worse survivability even so.


Don't worry, you're getting chastise, all you have to do is re-roll.
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#62 Molp

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:24 PM

Yes the thread is about CC. The point we have been trying to explain to you for the last six pages is THAT YOU CANNOT LOOK AT CC IN ISOLATION. You can only look at WHAT A CLASS BRINGS TO THE TABLE AS A WHOLE.

Of course, if your measuring stick is CC and CC only then druids are OP and paladins are underpowered. Duh. It is also completely meaningless.

Say they gave druids AoE cyclone but reduced the HP of all druids to 1. According to your standards, that would be a buff, since all that matters is CC.

Facts without context are meaningless. Facts without context are meaningless.

I am done with this thread.

P.S.: 2v2 being a gimmick bracket does not imply it being skilless. It implies that it will never be perfectly balanced since there are too many hard counters and too few classes to bring to have counters to said counters.
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#63 Molp

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:25 PM

In 5v5?

How many 2345 teams run a druid instead of a priest (or pally)?

I play both a priest and a druid. There is almost no composition and matchup where the priest would be the stronger character.


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#64 Duraeas

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:27 PM

I think the argument made by the pallies in this thread can be summarized in two sentences.

"Any advantage other classes have over me is overpowered.
Any advantage I have over other classes is irrelevant."

I see this argument made a lot, especially by pallies who have some of the biggest advantages of all classes and then complain about the things they don't have. It is amazing how pallies never complain that plate armor is OP against melee, for example. But CC being OP against healers, that gets their blood flowing.

A variation of the same argument is

"It is absolutely not fair that we are only average in 2v2 and not the strongest healer.
It is completely fair that we are by far the strongest healer in 5v5."

Keep complaining about the gimmick bracket while completely ignoring the bracket that Blizzard balances around, that gives the most points and that pallies happen to dominate. It adds credibility to your argument.


I never said that Druids shouldn't be brought up to par in 5v5. Please point out for me where either of us stated that. What we're stating is that in 2v2 and 3v3, the ability to completely shut down the other teams healer is overpowered if you can competently heal while you do it.

I think Druids should be buffed in 5v5. I think Paladin should be buffed in 2s and 3s.

Whats wrong with that?
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#65 Molp

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:31 PM

I never said that Druids shouldn't be brought up to par in 5v5. Please point out for me where either of us stated that. What we're stating is that in 2v2 and 3v3, the ability to completely shut down the other teams healer is overpowered if you can competently heal while you do it.

I think Druids should be buffed in 5v5. I think Paladin should be buffed in 2s and 3s.

Whats wrong with that?


Ok, one last response.

Nothing wrong with equalizing classes across brackets. But if that is your goal, nerfing CC is the last thing to consider.

A good druid can win in 2v2 without spamming CC. Against many matchups, excessive CC is actually a bad idea (to quote Hafu, spamming cyclone puts it on DR for when you really need it).
A druid in 5v5 is a waste of space without spamming CC.

See where the problem lies? I use CC about 10 times as much in 5v5 as I do in 2v2. Any nerf to CC would destroy my 5v5 viability. Completely, utterly destroy it.

People are too focused on 2v2. Like the "druids are better than priests" comment. The real argument is "druids are better than priests in 2v2". Leaving out that last subtle piece paints a completely incorrect picture.
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#66 Rhaegyn

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:32 PM

I think Druids should be buffed in 5v5. I think Paladin should be buffed in 2s and 3s.

Whats wrong with that?


I'm sure the majority agree with you on that, but it isn't easy to find a way to buff a class in one bracket, but leave them unchanged in other brackets and PvE.
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#67 buena

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:38 PM

I play both a priest and druid in every bracket. And yes the druid feels stronger in 5v5.

Traditionally people brought priests to 5v5 for mana burn and dispel, but at this point strategy has advanced enough that high rating opponents are not going to allow mana burn chains. And they don't have to, because it is a fully interruptable spell on a class with no escape abilities. One counter is to simply target the priest first, which is quite common anyway since it is the easiest kill target for melee. Another is to put any 1 dps on the priest, which is enough to fully prevent mana burning. And the most popular counter for other endurance teams is simply to drain the priest's mana before he can drain yours, using spells (viper sting and mana drain) with much more arena-viable mechanics.

Priests still have their other calling card: dispel. In some cases it may still be worth bringing a priest for dispel. But you are giving up an awful lot for this one ability. A druid has better crowd control, more healing potential, better survivability, and an easier time disengaging to drink.

I feel that priests have some rather obvious strengths, which made them popular in the past, but also some very glaring weaknesses and easy counters. The more people learn how to exploit their weaknesses, the weaker they will become relative to other healers. And this process is already starting, as you see more and more druids and less and less priests at the top of ALL brackets.

My priest is going shadow for s3.
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#68 Duraeas

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:44 PM

Ok, one last response.

Nothing wrong with equalizing classes across brackets. But if that is your goal, nerfing CC is the last thing to consider.

A good druid can win in 2v2 without spamming CC. Against many matchups, excessive CC is actually a bad idea (to quote Hafu, spamming cyclone puts it on DR for when you really need it).
A druid in 5v5 is a waste of space without spamming CC.

See where the problem lies? I use CC about 10 times as much in 5v5 as I do in 2v2. Any nerf to CC would destroy my 5v5 viability. Completely, utterly destroy it.

People are too focused on 2v2. Like the "druids are better than priests" comment. The real argument is "druids are better than priests in 2v2". Leaving out that last subtle piece paints a completely incorrect picture.


I don't care at all about 2v2s actually. I think it's a stupid bracket and anyone who considers themselves amazing at PvP because of a good 2v2 needs to understand that it is not a very dynamic bracket, and depends strongly on class makeup.

In 3v3 though, a Druid CAN afford to chain CC a Paladin.

Rhaegyn I used to play on Bleeding Hollow. My Paladin was named Oradol, in Elite Chaos.
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#69 Molp

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:48 PM

Fair enough. Lets postpone the nerf druid debate until the numbers back up your assesment. Nerfing a class that is currently still last in 5v5 representation and buffing a class that is still a strong third based on what you think the meta game will evolve to going forward is not a good idea. Once we actually get to the point where druids start replacing priests and pallies in masses in 5v5 then we can discuss what needs to be done.

So far, druids are still dead last, despite people proclaiming their impending rise to power for months.

I play both a priest and druid in every bracket. And yes the druid feels stronger in 5v5.

Traditionally people brought priests to 5v5 for mana burn and dispel, but at this point strategy has advanced enough that high rating opponents are not going to allow mana burn chains. And they don't have to, because it is a fully interruptable spell on a class with no escape abilities. One counter is to simply target the priest first, which is quite common anyway since it is the easiest kill target for melee. Another is to put any 1 dps on the priest, which is enough to fully prevent mana burning. And the most popular counter for other endurance teams is simply to drain the priest's mana before he can drain yours, using spells (viper sting and mana drain) with much more arena-viable mechanics.

Priests still have their other calling card: dispel. In some cases it may still be worth bringing a priest for dispel. But you are giving up an awful lot for this one ability. A druid has better crowd control, more healing potential, better survivability, and an easier time disengaging to drink.

I feel that priests have some rather obvious strengths, which made them popular in the past, but also some very glaring weaknesses and easy counters. The more people learn how to exploit their weaknesses, the weaker they will become relative to other healers. And this process is already starting, as you see more and more druids and less and less priests at the top of ALL brackets.

My priest is going shadow for s3.


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#70 buena

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:54 PM

Remember when the top players and people who played multiple classes in PvP said "warlocks are overpowered?" But others pointed to the fact that they were still underrepresented in the game as a whole, and in every arena bracket - particularly 5v5?

Rhetorical question.
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#71 Gunnolf

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:56 PM

Remember when the top players and people who played multiple classes in PvP said "warlocks are overpowered?" But others pointed to the fact that they were still underrepresented in the game as a whole, and in every arena bracket - particularly 5v5?

Rhetorical question.


Except they were not underrepresented in EVERY bracket, they were dominating 2s and 3s and middle of the pack in 5s. Druids are dead last in 5s by far more a margin than they are ahead of any other healer in 2s and 3s.
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#72 buena

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 12:11 AM

Except they were not underrepresented in EVERY bracket, they were dominating 2s and 3s and middle of the pack in 5s. Druids are dead last in 5s by far more a margin than they are ahead of any other healer in 2s and 3s.


This description sounds like the middle of the shift, which is probably when you started paying attention. At 60 and through the start of BC, warlock was the least played non-healer class by a substantial margin. In the early phases of season one, they were middle of the pack in 2v2, underrepresented in 3v3, and dead last in 5v5 representation. Common opinion was that they were not a viable 5v5 class.

Sound familiar at all?
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#73 Gunnolf

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 12:15 AM

This description sounds like the middle of the shift, which is probably when you started paying attention. At 60 and through the start of BC, warlock was the least played non-healer class by a substantial margin. In the early phases of season one, they were middle of the pack in 2v2, underrepresented in 3v3, and dead last in 5v5 representation. Common opinion was that they were not a viable 5v5 class.

Sound familiar at all?


No, because people knew they were overpowered at 60 too.

When S1 started warlocks were a great 2s and 3s class, i dont believe that they were ever underrepresented in those brackets, try to find caster's first stats if you can.

Secondly, who cares about total population? does that have anything to do with the actual relative power of those respective classes?
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#74 Gunnolf

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 12:18 AM

Found it, warlocks 6/9 in 5v5, 4/9 in 3v3 and 1/9 in 2v2

http://forums.worldo...027004920&sid=1

This is may 2007 and S1 started in april i believe.
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#75 Neajane

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 12:18 AM

No, because people knew they were overpowered at 60 too.

When S1 started warlocks were a great 2s and 3s class, i dont believe that they were ever underrepresented in those brackets, try to find caster's first stats if you can.

Secondly, who cares about total population? does that have anything to do with the actual relative power of those respective classes?


Warlocks were rogue dog food pre-TBC. Did you even PvP pre-TBC?
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#76 Molp

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 12:20 AM

This description sounds like the middle of the shift, which is probably when you started paying attention. At 60 and through the start of BC, warlock was the least played non-healer class by a substantial margin. In the early phases of season one, they were middle of the pack in 2v2, underrepresented in 3v3, and dead last in 5v5 representation. Common opinion was that they were not a viable 5v5 class.

Sound familiar at all?


Now all we are missing is hard proof that this has anything to do with the druid situation. You basically want to preemtively nerf the least represented class because you feel that they will magically become overpowered in the future. You have given no argument of what will make druids OP (other than saying that priests will suck, which also requires more proof) in 5v5.

What if you are wrong? Then you just nerfed the least played class even more. Lets see the hard evidence first. People have been huffing and puffing for months about how druids will dominate due to the rise of gib teams. Guess what? Months later, 2345 is still the dominant lineup and druids are still dead last. And 90% of the people who make claims of druid dominance have no druid on their 5v5. I know, I check every time. Like Neajane who posted just before me. 8 players on his team, zero druids.
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#77 Gunnolf

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 12:23 AM

Warlocks were rogue dog food pre-TBC. Did you even PvP pre-TBC?



Yes i did, i played when you couldnt trinket out of deathcoil, there was no clos, no deadly throw. People like grim had to blow everything to kill a SL warlock...sounds familiar.
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#78 buena

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 01:06 AM

Think for a moment that someone might post a realistic and fair-minded perspective on PvP balance, rather than one of simple self-promotion of their class or their team's lineup. Sound farfetched? Then consider that you yourself may be guilty of self-promoting, and you are just assuming that everyone else is doing the same as you.

But Blizzard doesn't read these forums. They barely even read their own. Self-promoting here is obviously pointless. No one you could possibly convince here has any power to change your or your team's status.

Additionally, what do you do about a player who has 5 classes and 15 teams that he plays competitively? Which one is he promoting when he posts? I have exactly that, and my interest in any debate is as a strategy buff and lover of competitive and balanced PvP. The reason I am posting that your class is overpowered is because in my - modesty aside - rather expert opinion, it is. I would much prefer that you argue this strategic point on a level of strategy, rather than a level of self-interest, such as "you don't have a druid on this team" and the like.

What makes a druid the worst 5v5 healer in your opinion? Lack of single-target throughput? Inability to dispel magic effects? Vulnerablilty of hot spells to purge? How are these perceived weaknesses enough to cancel out their strengths of mobility, crowd control, and instant cast heals? It is not enough to say they are under-represented, because power is only one of many factors affecting representation.
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#79 Gunnolf

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 01:33 AM

Think for a moment that someone might post a realistic and fair-minded perspective on PvP balance, rather than one of simple self-promotion of their class or their team's lineup. Sound farfetched? Then consider that you yourself may be guilty of self-promoting, and you are just assuming that everyone else is doing the same as you.

But Blizzard doesn't read these forums. They barely even read their own. Self-promoting here is obviously pointless. No one you could possibly convince here has any power to change your or your team's status.

Additionally, what do you do about a player who has 5 classes and 15 teams that he plays competitively? Which one is he promoting when he posts? I have exactly that, and my interest in any debate is as a strategy buff and lover of competitive and balanced PvP. The reason I am posting that your class is overpowered is because in my - modesty aside - rather expert opinion, it is. I would much prefer that you argue this strategic point on a level of strategy, rather than a level of self-interest, such as "you don't have a druid on this team" and the like.

What makes a druid the worst 5v5 healer in your opinion? Lack of single-target throughput? Inability to dispel magic effects? Vulnerablilty of hot spells to purge? How are these perceived weaknesses enough to cancel out their strengths of mobility, crowd control, and instant cast heals? It is not enough to say they are under-represented, because power is only one of many factors affecting representation.


First of all, i'm sure molp and i, the people that continue to reply in this thread are fully aware that no one from blizzard reads these forums. So i can just as easily turn it around and say since we have nothing to gain, we are speaking from the heart.

I also play multiple classes, i have arena'd on a spriest, druid, rogue, hunter, warrior, warlock, and mage. In addition to trying the remaining classes on the ptr at least.

I have more experience with rogues, mages and druids.
Druids are so strong in 2s because they can heal through 1 or 2 people's damage with hots while staying mobile and being able to los everything.
This is exactly why druids are weak in 5v5--->hot healing. Which is not enough to heal through mortal strike and 2 other dps by themselves like say, a paladin can. And it is not possible to kite/los 3 or 4 dps classes.

Druids main healing on gib teams are different, they rely on killing someone on the other team extremely quickly or forcing the opposing focus to play so defensively that they might as well not be there. This is very hit or miss though, and is usually why you see many 4 dps teams in the top 20-30 but not in the top 5.

No magic dispel, very limited support/buffs for other classes. If a druid is running with 2 healers, the other one will get sheeped/feared leaving the druid with just hots to heal through everything. Motw is the worst buff given by any class. The only in combat/support buffs the druid gives are decurse and abolish poison. Mages can handle decurse just as well.

-Shamans bring offensive dispels, bloodlust, anti-cc totems, and windfury for warriors.
-Paladins bring their blessings which include melee immunity, snare immunity, the best scaling buff in the game and the best mana regen buff in the game. Only one can be active on each person but their upside is unmatched.
-Priests bring mass dispel, mana burn, offensive and defensive dispels and fort+shadow protection.

-Druids bring motw, cyclone, and hots, which are their heals. And for how good cyclone is, it is what most non-gib 5v5 druids are doing. Cycling cyclones and throwing hots every so often. People in this thread are complaining about the one thing that makes druids barely viable in 5s.

Lastly, relative power is a big deal when talking about representation in the top teams. To say, "Well druids are the lowest pop class so they should be the lowest represented in the top 20 of every bg," Is not very valid because any of those top teams will have access to the best of the best druids. Look at Sereianna or whatever his name is, he does 2s and 3s with quite possibly the best druid in the world, yet he doesnt use him in 5s. This speaks for itself.
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#80 buena

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 02:17 AM

There is only one healer that can single handedly keep someone up through MS + 2 or 3 more DPS. A paladin, and only when it is sitting in a bubble. That is why paladins always have, still do, and will continute to have main healing roles on most 5v5 teams for the forseeable future.

However, I think you are selling druids' utility in this situation short. Admitting the superiority of a bubbled pally, the other options - including an unbubbled pally - aren't any better than a druid and possibly aren't as good.

Priests' healing strengths - prom, renew, shields - are better for prevention and for healing spread damage. Their extreme vulnerablity to melee forces them to gear and spec for pure survivability, gimping not only their healing throughput but especially their mana persistance. The only real advantage of a priest in this situation is that his dispel can keep other healers out of CC.

Shamans have better throughput than priests but inferior instant heals, leaving them vulnerable to interrupts and tongues. Their real advantage in a spike healing situation is that bloodlust and tremor totem help keep other healers up and healing faster. But both of these advantages have clear counters and they have no defensive dispels whatsoever.

An unbubbled paladin is the most vulnerable healer there is to interrupts and tongues, with an instant healing potential close to zero. In a spike healing situation against a good team they have the best throughput, but they are also the likeliest to get out no healing whatsoever due to CC and interrupts. Their 1-effect defensive dispel is versatile but often overwhelmed by the speed of dps classes stacking effects.

Druids actually have quite a high throughput with healing touch if talented for it, but no one does this. Why? Because the hots really are more effective, even in a spike healing situation. The great advantage of druids here is their superior instant casts. Not only do they have vastly superior hots, they actually have the best instant spike heals as well with NS + switftmend. Additionally, they cannot effectively be polymorphed and their unrivaled battlefield mobility allows them to better dodge fear and silences while maintaining healing throughput. It simply is not possible to prevent a competent druid from healing your spike target - you can only hope to spike through his healing. This is not true of any other healer. Finally, the ability to remove a DPSer from a distance and thereby reduce the spike is unequaled amongst healers. Especially in combination with roots, where it is particularly effective at removing the most important one - the one putting MS up.
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