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#41 Molp

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:23 PM

Nobody sees anything wrong with theoretically allowing someone else only 29% activity, whilst healing your teamate? ;P


THEORETICALLY being the key word. Theoretically, a warrior can kill me during a stunlock without me being able to do anything. Theoretically a POM pyro mage can burst me down in 5 seconds flat.

A lot of things are possible in theory. The point is, you can do things to prevent the theoretical case from turning into reality. Rogues can stunlock from 100-0. So rogues are unstoppable killing machines that nobody can ever beat? No. Like Mike Tyson said, everyone has a plan. But that plan goes out the window the second you get punched in the face.

Druids live with the constant risk of getting gibbed in 10 seconds when a 100 rage warrior catches them in caster form. That limits a lot of the theoretical stuff we can do. Can we do it? Sure. But it requires your cooperation and taking risks. But you don't remember the games where the druid tried the CC of doom and got melted by your warrior in the process. You only remember the times it worked and you lost. Selective memory is not the basis of an argument.
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#42 Neajane

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:26 PM

Not sure what took so long to get short concise answers like that. PS my main's a druid <3
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#43 Gunnolf

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:26 PM

Nobody sees anything wrong with theoretically allowing someone else only 29% activity, whilst healing your teamate? ;P


Neajane, molp has already explained this, the classes are different. That's it. There are trade offs to using a paladin or a druid.

-We have no offensive or defensive dispel. (Which every other healer has one or the other)

-In a straight up healing war, all other things equal, a paladin wins. Every time. (this is excluding water)

-A paladin has the highest healing per second of all healers. Nothing compares to holy light spam as far as burst healing. And please dont bring up NS-->HT because then i bring up bubble.

-A druid in his "healing" form is the squishiest of all healers, we have no passive damage reduction talents and low armor Our armor is less than a priest with inner fire up. (We'll see how natural perfection works out next patch).


These are trade offs, i don't think anyone can say much more than that.
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#44 Druds

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:28 PM

Neajane, how come you have the lowest rating were paladins actualy is the strongest healer?
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#45 Neajane

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:32 PM

[quote name='Gunnolf']Neajane, molp has already explained this, the classes are different. That's it. There are trade offs to using a paladin or a druid.
[quote]
-We have no offensive or defensive dispel. (Which every other healer has one or the other)
[/quote]
I guess decurse and abolish don't count? :o

[quote]
-In a straight up healing war, all other things equal, a paladin wins. Every time. (this is excluding water)
[/quote]

Show me math? This a gear situational/gear dependant statement. Factor in innervate?

[quote]
-A paladin has the highest healing per second of all healers. Nothing compares to holy light spam as far as burst healing. And please dont bring up NS-->HT because then i bring up bubble.
[/quote]

I'm not sure where you going now. We went from crowd control to healing somewhere in there. Oh well, at least you get this right.

[quote]
-A druid in his "healing" form is the squishiest of all healers, we have no passive damage reduction talents and low armor Our armor is less than a priest with inner fire up. (We'll see how natural perfection works out next patch).
[/quote]

So we're assuming the priest is buffed but you're not. Ok.

But if the priest has inner fire, does that mean you still can't cast Barkskin? 20% isn't really significant I agree. No I really do.

[quote]
These are trade offs, i don't think anyone can say much more than that.[/QUOTE]

Trade off on abilties.

But you have the only real form of repeatable limited only by DR CC, of the three healing classes.

In addition to that you have a seperate form of CC in entangling roots.

In addition to that you have feral charge and lolbash(which is bad for the opponent if it lands).
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#46 Neajane

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:33 PM

Neajane, how come you have the lowest rating were paladins actualy is the strongest healer?



Yes, attack my ratings! Its entirely impossible for me to play on more than one team.

What's next, strength of EU vs. US? Battlegroups?
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#47 Druds

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:37 PM

What's next, strength of EU vs. US? Battlegroups?


No we know that china will win -.-

Well tbh I was just wondering why :/
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#48 Molp

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:38 PM

Decurse is not nearly as useful as dispel. How many 5v5 teams have no dispellers? A lot of 5v5 teams have no decursers and do just fine (double warr/double pally for example).

Straight up pallies outheal druids. Anyone who has ever raided knows as much. Also, many pallies get away with at least partial PvE healing gear. Druids don't.

Barkskin has a cooldown.

Yes, druids are the only healer with spammable CC. So? You are the only healer with a bubble. You are the only healer with plate armor. Are you advocating making all classes the same? That would be boring.

I will say again. In 5v5, druid - CC = waste of space. According to Blizzard, 5v5 is the bracket that matters. As long as there are 6 pallies per druid in highly rated 5v5s, nerfing the only thing that makes druids viable in that bracket is so completely out of the question it is not even worth debating.

[quote name='Neajane'][quote name='Gunnolf']Neajane, molp has already explained this, the classes are different. That's it. There are trade offs to using a paladin or a druid.

I guess decurse and abolish don't count? :o



Show me math? This a gear situational/gear dependant statement. Factor in innervate?



I'm not sure where you going now. We went from crowd control to healing somewhere in there. Oh well, at least you get this right.



So we're assuming the priest is buffed but you're not. Ok.

But if the priest has inner fire, does that mean you still can't cast Barkskin? 20% isn't really significant I agree. No I really do.



Trade off on abilties.

But you have the only real form of repeatable limited only by DR CC, of the three healing classes.

In addition to that you have a seperate form of CC in entangling roots.

In addition to that you have feral charge and lolbash(which is bad for the opponent if it lands).[/QUOTE]
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#49 Insight

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:42 PM

Yes, its absolutely retarded. A Druid can CC me longer (while healing) than a Mage. I'm surprised none of these people who know how to do so are 2200+, since you can basically lock out every Paladin in the game like that.


Trinket, bubble, fake heal when you see bear, los, ask teammate to cc / interrupt druid, if you just stand there trying to spam heals then you fucking had it coming, QQ. He'll lock you for a while anyway, even if you get support but you're making it sound like there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, which isnt true.
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To state anecdotal evidence is completely worthless is also fucking stupid since that's what the studies are based on


#50 Gunnolf

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:43 PM

I'm a little too lazy to quote everything like you did and format it so nicely, so you are just going to have to follow me :P

You know as well as i do that dispelling magic both offensively and defensively have much more utility than decurse and poison. Ironically we are least effected by the most crucial curse to decurse ----tongues. In addition blind will be physical next patch so that can not be removed. So decurse is useful against one curse and abolish is good against wound. As opposed to the unlimited amount of magic buffs and debuffs that can be removed.

About innervate, you get the ability that reduces mana cost by 50% for 15 seconds and the 100% crit on next spell ability. (The names have eluded me atm but you know what i mean). Innervate isn't an entire mana bar at 70, in fact it is a measly 3k mana in pvp gear. I would venture you could save more mana from illumination and the aforementioned abilities than innervate.

Barkskin every minute does not even compare to blessed resilience.

In addition, your theory craft of a druid completely locking you down is about equal to me saying that as soon as i pop out i get intercept stunned while you get JoJ on me and freedom on your warrior. Thats a gg right there.
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#51 Neajane

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:58 PM

Decurse is not nearly as useful as dispel. How many 5v5 teams have no dispellers? A lot of 5v5 teams have no decursers and do just fine (double warr/double pally for example).


They're both useable in every bracket.


Straight up pallies outheal druids. Anyone who has ever raided knows as much. Also, many pallies get away with at least partial PvE healing gear. Druids don't.


With or without innervate? With that trinket you're sporting that's two full mana bars.

Barkskin has a cooldown.


Power word shield, earthshield ticks, divine shield all don't?

Yes, druids are the only healer with spammable CC. So? You are the only healer with a bubble. You are the only healer with plate armor. Are you advocating making all classes the same? That would be boring.


Once again you just compare CC to other class abilities which aren't CC. Yes, shamans should probably get some form of CC at the very least.


I will say again. In 5v5, druid - CC = waste of space. According to Blizzard, 5v5 is the bracket that matters. As long as there are 6 pallies per druid in highly rated 5v5s, nerfing the only thing that makes druids viable in that bracket is so completely out of the question it is not even worth debating.


Druids are unrepresented here, but for more-so because its easier to play paladins in 5's than 2's and 3's.
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#52 Taffie

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 10:23 PM

I'm not at all interested in this conversation, but I thought I'd correct one thing:

With or without innervate? With that trinket you're sporting that's two full mana bars.


Druids stack MP5 for arena. While casting innervate only restores 100% spirit while casting, which, with little spirit (meaning only the trinket) is not two full mana bars.

Sorry, but not even close. :P
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#53 Neajane

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 10:28 PM

I'm not at all interested in this conversation, but I thought I'd correct one thing:



Druids stack MP5 for arena. While casting innervate only restores 100% spirit while casting, which, with little spirit (meaning only the trinket) is not two full mana bars.

Sorry, but not even close. :P


I'm not that far off, with the Bangle. Though some druids use the prayer book.

Its no more an over estimation than what people claim Illumination is.
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#54 Duraeas

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 10:51 PM

And sorry, but this is just false, 20 seconds isn't enough to kill me or you at the 2.3k+ level and you know it.


He isn't playing at the 2.3k+ point, so it's possible he may not know it.

oh yeah poor you mister paladin qqqqqqqq. big bad skilled druid can chain together about 8 different abilities and, with timing and luck, lock your qq'ing ass out.

meanwhile poor mister paladin just has to cast 2 instants (bof and joj) and sit there with his thumb up his ass until the druid needs to heal then *gasp* a 5 second instant ranged stun! yet somehow only the best pallies can manage to even use it at the right time!

who would have thought easy-mode would get less profitable once people who rolled skill classes learned to play?

yeah i said it.

/cast Divine Shield
/twiddle


Way to respond constructively.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I rolled a Paladin class because I wanted to play another Paladin. I have played one since day 1 of the original game. You're insinuating that because your class "takes more skill" than mine, it should be better than mine. That is one of the stupidest arguments I may have ever heard. I don't care how much skill my class takes, I'd still be able to play it well.

Moving it down to 21 points is as good as removing it from the game for all non-feral druids.


Awesome. If you need it for an escape instead of a spell lockout, then how about it becomes a base ability and the lockout is a high end Feral Talent.

Yes, Blizzard made that choice purely due to semantics and not at all as a balancing move. How much effort do you think it would take to change the wording?


I'd be willing to be that the wording and effect was designed with Travel Form in mind.

However, our ability to CC is one of the ways we have to mitigate damage (yes there are many, but this is also true for at least paladins(AC and bubble)

Neajane, for starters, I agree that Druids have certain aspects which make them Overpowered in Arenas, to deny this fact would be folly considering how many of us are present in the upper ratings of most 2v2s and 3v3s across all battlegroups...

...

However, our ability to CC is one of the ways we have to mitigate damage (yes there are many, but this is also true for at least paladins(AC and bubble)

...

Probably, but without it being effective, then Paladin teams will start crushing druids teams on a regular basis. As it is now, Pal/War and Pal/Warlock are just as effective in different ways than Dru/War and Dru/Warlock, and either matrix with either healer has the ability to win the fight.


Responding to the quoted phrases in order...

Druids are very, very well represented in the top ends of arena.

I agree that your CC is an important form of damage mitigation. I think the problem is that it can be used to shut down the other teams healer, and it's that second edge that's the point we're trying to make. AC doesn't help the Paladin though against spell damage.

Druid teams currently crush Paladin teams. It isn't even a real competition anymore, and this can be backed up by anyone who has tried to play a high end Paladin Warrior team.

I'd like to hear more about this 5 series and the strategies that Spoh was using, since he wasn't using cyclone. There is a lot to be learned from those 2.


My only decent heal is, at best, 2 second cast. A Druid can start a Cyclone and interrupt me before it eve finishes casting. There is a good chance it's 2.5 seconds (without Light's Grace up). Against another Druid that can heal instantly, Cyclone isn't that big a deal.


I'd like to mention that if your Warrior has a Rogue or a Warrior on him, he isn't going to catch a Druid, JoJ or not. He has to get on the other teams Rogue or Warrior, and the fact is that if this happens, yes the Druid does have the ability to sit back and Chain CC. I can DS through the first round, but I can't do that indefinitely.

Honestly, I think they should just remove drinking from arenas unless your team has a Mage. It's stupid. I don't see why Paladin mana efficiency is considered an asset and a balancing point when you can drink in arenas. Fixing that would fix a lot of problems.
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#55 Molp

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:05 PM

I think the argument made by the pallies in this thread can be summarized in two sentences.

"Any advantage other classes have over me is overpowered.
Any advantage I have over other classes is irrelevant."

I see this argument made a lot, especially by pallies who have some of the biggest advantages of all classes and then complain about the things they don't have. It is amazing how pallies never complain that plate armor is OP against melee, for example. But CC being OP against healers, that gets their blood flowing.

A variation of the same argument is

"It is absolutely not fair that we are only average in 2v2 and not the strongest healer.
It is completely fair that we are by far the strongest healer in 5v5."

Keep complaining about the gimmick bracket while completely ignoring the bracket that Blizzard balances around, that gives the most points and that pallies happen to dominate. It adds credibility to your argument.
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#56 buena

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:05 PM

This thread is ridiculous. The two strongest-by-far arena healing classes fighting over which one is more OP than the other.

You're both OP. Buff priests and shamans.
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#57 Neajane

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:07 PM

This thread is ridiculous. The two strongest-by-far arena healing classes fighting over which one is more OP than the other.

You're both OP. Buff priests and shamans.


More like buff shaman, priests are fine, except for disc, which is looking like its getting some love.
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#58 Molp

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:10 PM

This thread is ridiculous. The two strongest-by-far arena healing classes fighting over which one is more OP than the other.

You're both OP. Buff priests and shamans.


Agreed. Priests suck, especially in 3v3 and 5v5. Oh wait, they don't.

Druids are the strongest in 2v2 and weak in 5v5. Pallies are the strongest in 5v5 and average in 2v2. Priests are well-represented in all brackets. So, not much to complain about. Priests are also the only class that is viable as both DPS and healer in all three brackets. So if anything, priests are the measuring stick around which other classes should be balanced.

Resto shamans could use some help, though. And they are getting it.
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#59 Neajane

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:15 PM

I think the argument made by the pallies in this thread can be summarized in two sentences.

"Any advantage other classes have over me is overpowered.
Any advantage I have over other classes is irrelevant."


The thread was about CC, druids have it, paladins, priests, and shamans have no reliable form of it.

I see this argument made a lot, especially by pallies who have some of the biggest advantages of all classes and then complain about the things they don't have. It is amazing how pallies never complain that plate armor is OP against melee, for example. But CC being OP against healers, that gets their blood flowing.


You're clinging to this pathetic armor class thing. Between druids in bear, shaman, and paladins there IS a 6000 armor difference, or do s2 glad's shaman have more than 10k armor, I'm not entirely sure. But seriously, Cyclone(crowd control), and ARMOR(lol) are not the same thing.

Especially since armor affects like 3.5/9 classes. Your CC affects 9/9 classes.

A variation of the same argument is

"It is absolutely not fair that we are only average in 2v2 and not the strongest healer.
It is completely fair that we are by far the strongest healer in 5v5."


Once again you have CC, other healers don't, that's the issue being discussed(By me at least).


Keep complaining about the gimmick bracket while completely ignoring the bracket that Blizzard balances around, that gives the most points and that pallies happen to dominate. It adds credibility to your argument.


Its impossible really to say what blizzard balances around nowadays, but I would say since people do get Gladiator's titles from 2's, and 3's. Yeah. They're significant.

Are you saying all the people who got Glad's in 2's are just gimmicky talent-less players?
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#60 buena

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:19 PM

I play both a priest and a druid. There is almost no composition and matchup where the priest would be the stronger character.

Other healers underestimate how much of a problem it is to be the squishiest class against melee, and have no escape method from them. No bof. No cleanse. No abolish. No travel form. No bubble. No bop. No 115% bear form with feral charge. Not even JoJ-and-kite-with-runspeed-enchant. Just stand there limping around very slowly while you hope your team can do something before you die. Tell the truth now, which of you has ever watched the crippling poison debuff or hamstring timer like a hawk to see if there was a chance you might actually get to play?

Priests seem like hard targets because they are forced to stack resilience to the cap and stamina in other slot to combat this inherent glaring disadvantage. Other abilities suffer. My full s2 priest has 300 less +healing than my druid, less than half the mp5, and worse survivability even so.
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