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#21 Druds

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 08:20 PM

How does JoJ cause you to lose control of your character again?



You dont but I would just like to see a way to get out of it, but as the last post in my eyes it is a movement impairing effect.
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#22 Neajane

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 08:22 PM

My speed in human form: 109%
My speed in travel: 161%
My speed in bear: 125%

My speed with JoJ: 100%.
Speed of the warrior chasing me: 109%.

No movement impairment my ass. Yes the spell was clearly designed to counter druids. Feral charge is meant to counter JoJ. You cannot take away our only counter to JoJ. Not unless you want to turn warrior/pally into an auto loss for druids.


Wait, where did I say we're removing feral charge from the game?

Also, JoJ has been addressed in blue posts, its classified as a "movement limiting effect" and as such is not the same as "movement impairing".

Druids with the assistance of your partner(you know you have one right?), can easily still escape JoJ, don't make it seem like the match is over because the druid gets JoJ on him.
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#23 Neajane

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 08:26 PM

You dont but I would just like to see a way to get out of it, but as the last post in my eyes it is a movement impairing effect.


Does trinket remove slow?
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#24 Druds

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 08:29 PM

Yes,
Removes all movement impairing effects and all effects which cause loss of control of your character.
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#25 Taffy

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 08:31 PM

In 2.3 you're going to have an additional (up to) 15% DR against Warriors. In Bear form, he isn't going to kill you. All it takes is someone to keep the Warrior off you for 1.x seconds to cast Cyclone and you can heal to full. Not really anything I can do as a Paladin about it.


oh yeah poor you mister paladin qqqqqqqq. big bad skilled druid can chain together about 8 different abilities and, with timing and luck, lock your qq'ing ass out.

meanwhile poor mister paladin just has to cast 2 instants (bof and joj) and sit there with his thumb up his ass until the druid needs to heal then *gasp* a 5 second instant ranged stun! yet somehow only the best pallies can manage to even use it at the right time!

who would have thought easy-mode would get less profitable once people who rolled skill classes learned to play?

yeah i said it.

/cast Divine Shield
/twiddle
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#26 Molp

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 08:32 PM

Yes we have the option to CC. You have the luxury of plate armor, bubbles, blessings and better dispel. Tradeoffs. Noone can have it all.

Yes I can get one CC off. But the complaint is about chaining CCs, which requires several cyclones. Add in the one that gets pummeled and you are looking at quite some time in caster form.

Yes if
a) I am within 30 yards of the pally
B) I am far away from your warrior
c) My warrior is on your warrior
d) My warrior is not in any imminent danger of dying

Then I can pull the CC of doom. The problem is, that rarely happens. A smart team can always make a+b impossible by simply standing on top of each other. If the warrior stands on top of the pally, the 1.4 seconds are enough to bridge the 5 yards distance difference and intercept me.

Further, b+c+d together is another sticky point. If I am far away from your warrior and my warrior is on your warrior then my warrior is out of heal range. So yes I can pull the CC of doom to prevent you from healing. But I just prevented myself from healing as well. If in that situation my warrior does not get the kill we are screwed, because druid HoTs are not enough to get in front of the damage an MS warrior can pull out. We can maintain the status quo very well, but once things go south its a train wreck in slow motion.

It is not impossible by any means but it is not nearly as strong as you may think since it requires mistakes on your part to be possible. We once played a 5 game series vs Spoh/Serennia and the total number of CCs cast by Spoh was 1, not counting Nature's Grasp (yes that one CC was on me when I shook Serennia and he turned around and gibbed my warrior). Or watch the Hafu 2v3 video and observe her not using much CC.

Druid CC is powerful but dangerous since a bad resist or well-timed interrupt can really ruin your day.


I didn't say any of this.

You DO have at least the *OPTION* of "CC of Doom" as you put it.

I'm just trying to point out that the other 3 healing classes have no such combination of options in addition to being able to heal comparably to the other 3 classes.



1.4 seconds?



The warrior must intercept to you to reach you if you played correctly (read: Don't stand next to him). Meaning feral charge is still an out, even assuming that the healer you charge is a paladin who has joj queue'd. I will admit a good healer will put you in danger doing this, but once again no other healer has such an interupt that acts as an out.



1.4 seconds, lol wut. Wait for MS, he'll be on GCD, then cyclone.



Maybe if you stood there and did none of what was prescribed above for 20 seconds.


My original question to other druids still stands, don't you find it a little unbalanced that the 3 other healing classes lack this comprehensive of CC?


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#27 Neajane

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 08:33 PM

Yes,
Removes all movement impairing effects and all effects which cause loss of control of your character.


Movement limiting =/= Movement impairing
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#28 Neajane

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 08:34 PM

Or watch the Hafu 2v3 video and observe her not using much CC.


Wait, what? She doesn't use CC because the other team has an extra player, NO WAY!
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#29 Molp

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 08:36 PM

Moving it down to 21 points is as good as removing it from the game for all non-feral druids. Which is a complete non-starter since in 5v5 it is our only true escape since travel form in that bracket is suicide. The only option would then be to spec moonkin/resto.

What can my warrior partner do to another warrior with BoF on him?

Basically, if you removed feral charge, against warrior/pally, warrior/druid would be like this. Pop bear, wait for NG to be up and BoF to be down, root warrior behind pillar. Heal, bear up again and repeat. Either die before cooldown is up or don't. Entertaining.

Wait, where did I say we're removing feral charge from the game?

Also, JoJ has been addressed in blue posts, its classified as a "movement limiting effect" and as such is not the same as "movement impairing".

Druids with the assistance of your partner(you know you have one right?), can easily still escape JoJ, don't make it seem like the match is over because the druid gets JoJ on him.


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#30 Molp

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 08:41 PM

Wait, what? She doesn't use CC because the other team has an extra player, NO WAY!


Wouldn't CC be best in that situation? People complain all the time how cyclone makes it a 2v1.Shouldn't turning a 2v3 into a 2v2 be on top of the list?

There are not very many good recent druid videos unfortunately, but playing on BG9 I have had the luxury of playing against several top druids (a benefit of queuing late is getting to play against top teams even with a measily 2100 rating). And it was not the CC that owned us. Amazing use of travel form, yes. Well-timed feral charges, yes. Chain CC, no.

The only bracket where I chain CC is 5v5. Fact is, without chain CC druids are a waste of space in 5v5. Nerfing CC would hurt druids in the one bracket where they suck anyway and as such is a complete non-starter from a balance perspective.

Nerfing mobility would be a better nerf for 2v2, but nerfing mobility would destroy what makes druids unique and fun to play. As such it is a complete non-starter from a fun perspective. And Blizzard agrees, seeing how they lowered the shapeshifting costs and are now enabling instant shitfing.
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#31 Molp

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 08:45 PM

Movement limiting =/= Movement impairing


Yes, Blizzard made that choice purely due to semantics and not at all as a balancing move. How much effort do you think it would take to change the wording?
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#32 Neajane

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 08:47 PM

[quote name='Molp']Yes we have the option to CC. You have the luxury of plate armor, bubbles, blessings and better dispel. Tradeoffs. Noone can have it all.
[quote]

None of said luxuries are forms of CC. Try to stay on task here, because entangling roots(this is really a form of CC too but for arguement's sake...), barkskin, bearform, hot.

We're not talking about class "luxuries here", we're talking about crowd control


[quote]
Yes I can get one CC off. But the complaint is about chaining CCs, which requires several cyclones. Add in the one that gets pummeled and you are looking at quite some time in caster form.

Yes if
a) I am within 30 yards of the pally
B) I am far away from your warrior
c) My warrior is on your warrior
d) My warrior is not in any imminent danger of dying
[/quote]

Hello start of the game, I'm in stealth, I chose where to come out, if you're warrior is in danger with >10 seconds from the charge opening, you're undergeared.

[quote]
Then I can pull the CC of doom. The problem is, that rarely happens. A smart team can always make a+b impossible by simply standing on top of each other. If the warrior stands on top of the pally, the 1.4 seconds are enough to bridge the 5 yards distance difference and intercept me.
[/quote]

Which goes back to my original point which was the warrior HAS TO USE INTERCEPT IN THIS SITUATION. I don't know how else to spell it out to you, if they stand together, that simply works in your favor. You ignore the fact that your partner has things like Intercept/Deathcoil as well when it happens.

[quote]
Further, b+c+d together is another sticky point. If I am far away from your warrior and my warrior is on your warrior then my warrior is out of heal range.
[/quote]

Wait what? They're in melee range of eachother but you're not in range to heal. K. Sure.

[quote]So yes I can pull the CC of doom to prevent you from healing. But I just prevented myself from healing as well. If in that situation my warrior does not get the kill we are screwed, because druid HoTs are not enough to get in front of the damage an MS warrior can pull out. We can maintain the status quo very well, but once things go south its a train wreck in slow motion.[/quote]
Its a good thing you can only cyclone healers then!

[quote]
It is not impossible by any means but it is not nearly as strong as you may think since it requires mistakes on your part to be possible. We once played a 5 game series vs Spoh/Serennia and the total number of CCs cast by Spoh was 1, not counting Nature's Grasp (yes that one CC was on me when I shook Serennia and he turned around and gibbed my warrior). Or watch the Hafu 2v3 video and observe her not using much CC.
[/quote]

So one set of 5 games, where a 2k rated 2v2 plays a 2.6k rated 2v2, and you ...lost? Its totally not possible that Spoh just didn't feel the need and/or threatened at all by your partner.

Hafu comment addressed in another post, a 2v3 vidoe where the druid often is being focused on by TWO people just isn't a good example to support your arguement at all.

[quote]
Druid CC is powerful but dangerous since a bad resist or well-timed interrupt can really ruin your day.[/QUOTE]

Once again I'll attempt to get across what I'm trying to get you to see here, its this:

When a healer is casting a heal, its not that you WILL be "CC of Doom'd", its the fact that you COULD BE if the druid healer is not dealt with immediately. Its the threat of the CC in addition to the actually ability to cast it. Possessing the CC limits your opponents options, not so with other healing classes.
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#33 Peck

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 08:47 PM

Neajane, for starters, I agree that Druids have certain aspects which make them Overpowered in Arenas, to deny this fact would be folly considering how many of us are present in the upper ratings of most 2v2s and 3v3s across all battlegroups...

However, our ability to CC is one of the ways we have to mitigate damage (yes there are many, but this is also true for at least paladins(AC and bubble) and priests(PWS, Inner Fire, Blessed Resilience) shammies are still weak in this category, however). Physical DPS classes pound us relentlessly if we're in caster form even for 5 seconds, therefore, waiting for a warrior to apply a mortal strike before we CC to avoid a pummel isnt' always an option. Also, it takes more than 1.4 seconds to Effectively do a CC lockdown on someone, it works out to be about 4.2 seconds in order to lock down someone for 10.5 with Cyclone, or almost half the duration that someone is CCd for. In addition, the fact that it has to be recast makes us succeptible to any other type of Counterspell while we try to recast, in addition to Cyclone actually having to BREAK before we can reapply. A crafty warrior can intercept the 2nd cyclone, or a mage can CS it as the first one fades.

In addition, our healing doesn't compare to priests/sham/paladins when there is a Mortal Strike type debuff applied to a target... HoTs aren't enough to keep someone up with a warrior who has full rage pounding on them, we're forced to resort to our Direct Heals, which are excessively ineffecient... Cycloning the DPS to heal our partner up is what saves my partner a huge portion of the time.

So we've been given a unique CC to try and offset some of these deficiencies. Balanced? maybe not. Can any other healers do this? Definately not, but at the same time we can't stop incoming spells (earth shock/Grounding), dispel harmful magical debuffs on our partners (Cleanse/Dispell/Tremor), cast BoFreedom, BoP, BoSac to stop CC, or make ourselves invulnerable for a period of time.

Yes, we can shift out of Poly and root to break certain CC, yes we can dispell poisons and curses, and yes we can interrupt with Feral Charge. But Feral Charge cannot be applied to stop a spellcast unless we're anticipating it or happened to shift to bear at an opportune time by accident... 1.5 GCD to shift to bear, and a few fractions of a second to wait for furor to tick isn't fast enough to stop a poly on my warrior that i'm not anticipating.

Are druids better off than other healers in the 2v2 and 3v3 bracket? Definately, but each healer has his own unique shit to do that the others can't, Cyclone just happens to be more noticable than everyone elses. Nontheless a crafty player of any of the other healers can still beat us, especially considering the majority of us are schmucks who rerolled Druid after TBC, and don't really know the class that well.

Is cyclone overpowered? ATM probably, its the only CC whose SOLE counter is a Trinket. Will it be nerfed? Probably, but without it being effective, then Paladin teams will start crushing druids teams on a regular basis. As it is now, Pal/War and Pal/Warlock are just as effective in different ways than Dru/War and Dru/Warlock, and either matrix with either healer has the ability to win the fight.

Please keep it civil, you're bringing up good points, and I am always down for a good argument.
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#34 Neajane

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 08:48 PM

Yes, Blizzard made that choice purely due to semantics and not at all as a balancing move. How much effort do you think it would take to change the wording?



It was stated to be a counter to shapeshifting, get over it already.

I was running the damn flag in WSG all the time when this change happened on my druid, it sucked. Bad.
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#35 Molp

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 08:56 PM

It was 2.2k vs 2.4k at that point. You don't get to 97% wins by taking opponents lightly. Especially not opponents that can chain stun you when you get unlucky.

The point is that he got away just fine without CC. Standing in caster and cycloning would only have made it worse, because it adds the risk of a bad resist. In a mirror match my warrior once melted the druid in 10 seconds right at the beginning. Well-timed pummel combined with a bad resist, dead druid.

Yes druids have the option of the CC of doom. Its a luxury the class brings to the table. The same way you bring plate armor and two bubbles to the table, which prevent you from dying during a bad mace stun.

You want to nerf druid CC. Are you prepared to give us plate armor in caster form in return? Funny how pallies like to complain about their only counter. My counter is getting beaten to a pulp, especially in 5v5 (where there are 6 pallies per druid). I would gladly have to worry only about being CCed.

So one set of 5 games, where a 2k rated 2v2 plays a 2.6k rated 2v2, and you ...lost? Its totally not possible that Spoh just didn't feel the need and/or threatened at all by your partner.

When a healer is casting a heal, its not that you WILL be "CC of Doom'd", its the fact that you COULD BE if the druid healer is not dealt with immediately. Its the threat of the CC in addition to the actually ability to cast it. Possessing the CC limits your opponents options, not so with other healing classes.


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#36 Unraveller

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:02 PM

uo very well, but once things go south its a train wreck in slow motion.

It is not impossible by any means but it is not nearly as strong as you may think since it requires mistakes on your part to be possible. We once played a 5 game series vs Spoh/Serennia and the total number of CCs cast by Spoh was 1, not counting Nature's Grasp (yes that one CC was on me when I shook Serennia and he turned around and gibbed my warrior).


I'd like to hear more about this 5 series and the strategies that Spoh was using, since he wasn't using cyclone. There is a lot to be learned from those 2.

I used to run UBRS with Avatar back in the launch days, weird...
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#37 Neajane

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:02 PM

Neajane, for starters, I agree that Druids have certain aspects which make them Overpowered in Arenas, to deny this fact would be folly considering how many of us are present in the upper ratings of most 2v2s and 3v3s across all battlegroups...


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH you guys are killing me! No! no! no!

Guys. Its not druids. Its not warlocks. Put the common denominator together, druids are way more balanced and fine than warriors ever have been.

However, our ability to CC is one of the ways we have to mitigate damage (yes there are many, but this is also true for at least paladins(AC and bubble) and priests(PWS, Inner Fire, Blessed Resilience) shammies are still weak in this category, however). Physical DPS classes pound us relentlessly if we're in caster form even for 5 seconds, therefore, waiting for a warrior to apply a mortal strike before we CC to avoid a pummel isnt' always an option. Also, it takes more than 1.4 seconds to Effectively do a CC lockdown on someone, it works out to be about 4.2 seconds in order to lock down someone for 10.5 with Cyclone, or almost half the duration that someone is CCd for. In addition, the fact that it has to be recast makes us succeptible to any other type of Counterspell while we try to recast, in addition to Cyclone actually having to BREAK before we can reapply. A crafty warrior can intercept the 2nd cyclone, or a mage can CS it as the first one fades.


So essentially you reaffirm my points here?

Here you compare a 5 minute cooldown to a shapeshift out like bearform, or nature's grasp. And we're mostly talking abotu a Druid/Warrior vs. Paladin/Warrior match-up here at this point. Where did counterspell pop up?

And once again, if the warrior burns intercept on you, that's playing directly into your hands.


In addition, our healing doesn't compare to priests/sham/paladins when there is a Mortal Strike type debuff applied to a target... HoTs aren't enough to keep someone up with a warrior who has full rage pounding on them, we're forced to resort to our Direct Heals, which are excessively ineffecient... Cycloning the DPS to heal our partner up is what saves my partner a huge portion of the time.


I can't flash of light spam *only* to keep a warrior up. A priest has to resort to Gheal spam, he can't just renew and bubble. A shaman must use healing wave. SO ...you have to use regrowth/lifebloomx3/rejuv, how is spending mana requiring you to have CC while other classes do not have access to it?

So we've been given a unique CC to try and offset some of these deficiencies. Balanced? maybe not. Can any other healers do this? Definately not, but at the same time we can't stop incoming spells (earth shock/Grounding), dispel harmful magical debuffs on our partners (Cleanse/Dispell/Tremor), cast BoFreedom, BoP, BoSac to stop CC, or make ourselves invulnerable for a period of time.


Once again you're comparing YOUR CC to other classes abilties, and not their CC.

But seriously though, earth shock. You serious? Shamans got nothing, cept for purgedpoop shield. Grounding does manage to suck up those rank 1 moonfires.

Yes, we can shift out of Poly and root to break certain CC, yes we can dispell poisons and curses, and yes we can interrupt with Feral Charge. But Feral Charge cannot be applied to stop a spellcast unless we're anticipating it or happened to shift to bear at an opportune time by accident... 1.5 GCD to shift to bear, and a few fractions of a second to wait for furor to tick isn't fast enough to stop a poly on my warrior that i'm not anticipating.


So you're supposed to be able to stop that which you're not anticipating? Once again, I'm pointing out that *right now* *this season* you have the ability to do this type of stuff that other healing classes don't.

Are druids better off than other healers in the 2v2 and 3v3 bracket? Definately, but each healer has his own unique shit to do that the others can't, Cyclone just happens to be more noticable than everyone elses. Nontheless a crafty player of any of the other healers can still beat us, especially considering the majority of us are schmucks who rerolled Druid after TBC, and don't really know the class that well.


Spoh's arena ratings, and Hafu's recent arena ratings suggest otherwise, but ok ;P. "Crafty" paladins can beat you.

Is cyclone overpowered? ATM probably, its the only CC whose SOLE counter is a Trinket. Will it be nerfed? Probably, but without it being effective, then Paladin teams will start crushing druids teams on a regular basis. As it is now, Pal/War and Pal/Warlock are just as effective in different ways than Dru/War and Dru/Warlock, and either matrix with either healer has the ability to win the fight.


Nerfed in what way? None of the changes I suggested mentioned cyclone.


Please keep it civil, you're bringing up good points, and I am always down for a good argument.


Indeed.
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#38 Molp

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:09 PM

I'd just like to hear more about this encounter and the strategies that spoh was using, since he wasn't using cyclone. There is a lot to be learned from those 2... I used to run UBRS with Avatar back in the launch days, weird...


It is hard to put it in words, really. We analyze all our losses, and normally we find ways we could have won or how we simply got unlucky. But not that time (and we were actually doing well back then, not the streak of suckiness we had lately). He was simply always around a corner when intercept was up. I have no idea how he managed that on Lordaeron where he essentially ran from one end of the arena to the next and back. He also rarely used bear form.

I think the key part is detailed knowledge of the arena. Knowing exactly what puts you into LoS of an intercept. Like, which parts of the ramp in BE LoS you and which don't. How to precisely LoS using the little graves on Lordaeron. I personally only estimate those and often get caught in an intercept wher I didn't think it would be possible. Could also be my ping.

The one takeaway I got though was to stealth whenever it was up. The second takeaway was that I suck at this game. At least we beat up some 1900 rated warrior/druid team following the 5 game series, so that made me feel better.
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#39 Neajane

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:12 PM

I'm pretty much sick and tired of explaining it, here goes:



It was 2.2k vs 2.4k at that point. You don't get to 97% wins by taking opponents lightly. Especially not opponents that can chain stun you when you get unlucky.


So one instance of one RNG win with a stun proc invalidates all of the points I bring up?

The point is that he got away just fine without CC. Standing in caster and cycloning would only have made it worse, because it adds the risk of a bad resist. In a mirror match my warrior once melted the druid in 10 seconds right at the beginning. Well-timed pummel combined with a bad resist, dead druid.


This statement seems to suggest you wouldn't even need cyclone? Not sure what you're trying to point out. And..... a mirror match with a druid whom we know nothing about. He said she said what if blah blah, ok.

Yes druids have the option of the CC of doom. Its a luxury the class brings to the table. The same way you bring plate armor and two bubbles to the table, which prevent you from dying during a bad mace stun.


Once again every class has their different abilities, its why we're different. I'm trying to point out that you have the only reliable form of CC of the healing classes, WHILE still sharing many benefits of other healing classes. This suggests the other healing classes need help.

You want to nerf druid CC. Are you prepared to give us plate armor in caster form in return? Funny how pallies like to complain about their only counter. My counter is getting beaten to a pulp, especially in 5v5 (where there are 6 pallies per druid). I would gladly have to worry only about being CCed.



At this point I'd rather slam my dick in a car door than argue with you. My original question was for everyone:

Nobody sees anything wrong with theoretically allowing someone else only 29% activity, whilst healing your teamate? ;P

And you're also the only healing class at this point to have these options while still being able to heal [arguably] as effectively as the other 3 healing classes.

But yeah you can tell me I'm QQIng, and just complaining, yeah yeah yeah...ok. Whatever floats your boat.
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#40 Druds

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 09:22 PM

Nobody sees anything wrong with theoretically allowing someone else only 29% activity, whilst healing your teamate? ;P


No I dont.
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