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#41 Except

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 06:34 PM

View PostAllorah, on 15 August 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

If you think about how popular games were like Halo 2 (using a FPS example as mentioned before), that game's popularity was derived from how much fun it was to compete in a ranked pvp structure where the only thing you gained from doing it was a higher number.  If people can be satisfied with that, it's not a hard stretch to think they would be happy with the items they can acquire with the content available to them.

Yeah, but that's FPS, see? With MMO's players always wanted progression and reward in the end. It's how it worked up until now anyway. If you don't look at GW2 from MMO perspective then yes, its perfectly fine not to give any power increases when gaining a new PvP rank or whatever. However, if more FPS players get interested in the game as a result of such system where you get to competitively PvP from level one, then this is truly a success for the game.
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#42 Allorah

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 06:38 PM

View PostExcept, on 15 August 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Yeah, but that's FPS, see? With MMO's players always wanted progression and reward in the end. It's how it worked up until now anyway. If you don't look at GW2 from MMO perspective then yes, its perfectly fine not to give any power increases when gaining a new PvP rank or whatever. However, if more FPS players get interested in the game as a result of such system where you get to competitively PvP from level one, then this is truly a success for the game.

That's true.  Well said.

#43 Lillpappz

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 06:39 PM

Tiered gear progression is bad for gameplay. It only trivialize content. As it is in WoW atm all content except the current tier is trivial and there is pretty much no point in exploring the other ~90% of the world.
With gear and level scaling no content is trivial in GW2.

#44 Drakaari

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 06:45 PM

View PostExcept, on 15 August 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Yeah, but that's FPS, see? With MMO's players always wanted progression and reward in the end. It's how it worked up until now anyway. If you don't look at GW2 from MMO perspective then yes, its perfectly fine not to give any power increases when gaining a new PvP rank or whatever. However, if more FPS players get interested in the game as a result of such system where you get to competitively PvP from level one, then this is truly a success for the game.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if turns out to be the case. I thoroughly enjoy both genres and can easily look at both genres from either perspective.  I'm sure there are/were TONS of people that would have liked to learn and compete in WoWs PvP system, but had absolutely NO desire to have to level a character to max level and spend all the time to get geared up, just to be able to enjoy the Arenas/RBGs.

Being able to within minutes of creating any character, jump right in to max level, equally gear PvP, could very much draw in players who'd never otherwise touch an MMORPG with a 10ft pole, no matter how fun the max level pvp appeared to be.

#45 bookworm438

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 06:50 PM

View PostKaylos, on 15 August 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

You are forgetting WvW, which while more casual than sPvP, is still PvP and there are planty of guilds taking it pretty seriously.  And that gear progression does affect you there.  Of course the difference isn't going to be huge between a non-optimized and optimized set of gear, but it will still be there.  The carrot doesn't have to be big to get people to chase it.

The point is there could be plenty of reason to keep playing for endgame.  The real loss though is raids.  There is a certain kind of player that likes and expects raids.  I bet they could even build raids that people would do even without any real loot incentive if they got some sort of title out of it.

We have no idea if it's possible to obtain level 80 exotic gear from WvW. It's possible to obtain level 60, but we aren't sure about level 80. However, it shouldn't make much of a difference. If you are worried about 1v1 in WvW, you are playing wrong. You aren't helping your server win by just going after that 1 person, or if you are running around by yourself.

As of right now, they aren't focused on building raids. I suppose it would be possible to add some in a future expansion or content release, but I don't think they have anything planned. According to ArenaNet, it depends on what the players want, and what the live team (those focused on balancing, content addition, bug updates, and general maintenance of the game while it's live) will add.

View PostKaylos, on 15 August 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

I think it has the potential to make you more efficient with certian builds.  One thing the equipment thread noted was that there were not any crafted Soldier gear (Str, Tough, Vit) one could craft at the time it was made.  That means a specific type of gear that should be popular in WvW will have to be obtained through other means.

That's the point. That's why I've always said that the gear progression is more horizontal than vertical. There's some vertical gear progression, as you have to get to exotic gear. However, the true challenge comes from getting the right stats you want. However, teamwork and knowing how to play your class will always be of more importance. I hope they don't allow for things like dps meters and allow you to inspect another person's gear. It would give the wrong impression that gear is everything, and it matters more than strategy and teamwork. I know in Ascalon Catacombs, people employed a few different strategies to defeat the lovers. I saw everything from suicide methods, to using the dungeon mechanics against them (leading the twins back out the way you came and trapping one inside).

View PostAllorah, on 15 August 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

If you think about how popular games were like Halo 2 (using a FPS example as mentioned before), that game's popularity was derived from how much fun it was to compete in a ranked pvp structure where the only thing you gained from doing it was a higher number.  If people can be satisfied with that, it's not a hard stretch to think they would be happy with the items they can acquire with the content available to them.

If the rank system is anything like GW1 gladiator ranking, people will be trying to max out the rank for years to come. Very few people have maxed out the gladiator ranking in GW1. Same with the champion rankings.

#46 Except

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:47 AM

View Postbookworm438, on 15 August 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

That's the point. That's why I've always said that the gear progression is more horizontal than vertical. There's some vertical gear progression, as you have to get to exotic gear. However, the true challenge comes from getting the right stats you want. However, teamwork and knowing how to play your class will always be of more importance. I hope they don't allow for things like dps meters and allow you to inspect another person's gear. It would give the wrong impression that gear is everything, and it matters more than strategy and teamwork. I know in Ascalon Catacombs, people employed a few different strategies to defeat the lovers. I saw everything from suicide methods, to using the dungeon mechanics against them (leading the twins back out the way you came and trapping one inside).

Well, I don't really know about equipment inspection, 'cause it really is an important tool for those who don't really know what they need to be aiming for, when starting to collect their gear. I personally did that sort of things when I wasn't really into forums and didn't want to look up the builds in certain games. I just inspected some random dude, who looked like he knew what he was doing and copied his talents and tried to get similar gear or whatnot.

As to the DPS meters, Arenanet definitely wouldn't implement them for themselves, but I think people will find the way to create something of sort. When I played Rift and the devs didn't allow players to customise the UI for the most part, moders created some kind of 3 party program, which ran alongside with the game, and collected the data. So, we will see on that one.
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#47 Drakaari

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 03:54 PM

View PostExcept, on 16 August 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

As to the DPS meters, Arenanet definitely wouldn't implement them for themselves, but I think people will find the way to create something of sort. When I played Rift and the devs didn't allow players to customise the UI for the most part, moders created some kind of 3 party program, which ran alongside with the game, and collected the data. So, we will see on that one.

Meter and even Gear Comparison are good features to have, in of themselves, but the way people react to them is generally flawed.  Both are simply information gathering tools, but people with superiority/inferiority complexes usually corrupt the meaning.

In WoW, I've always had Dmg Meters, it was one of the first mods I ever installed, as it was the only way to guage MY OWN performance, and as long as whatever group or raid I was in was progressing through content, I didn't care if others were under performing, I was trying to "beat my own records" or catch up to the people who were performing better than me.  But there have always been the arseholes that simply because they do X amount dmg, they believe it gives them the right to slander everyone who does less.  GearScore made things even worse.  Which mostly in fault of the players who chose to be ignorant to the literal/effective workings of the game.

With WoW being designed around Gear>Skill, if you had two people in equal gear and equal skill, they'd do exactly the same dmg.  But if you modify the Gear to Skill ratio between the two (in this case, Better gear on the Less Skilled player) it eventually reaches a point where no matter how skilled you are, you're not going to out-dps the hurp-a-durp faceroller that has better epics.  Oh how many times, I'd go to a PUG Raid, and the organizer refused to take one of my friends because they're GearScore was slightly too low, and we'd lay into the bosses, and the dps in the best gear was doing 1/2 the dmg as everyone else, but that was just fine and dandy, cause hey, he had the highest GearScore, right?   Anyway, the problem is not the meters, it's the players misusing them as tools.

I'm getting more and more excited about GW2 having less focus on "Endgame", because the definition of the term in Gaming Standards these days is more like "The End of the Game"...

#48 Lillpappz

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:20 PM

I would love an ingame parser that only shows your own dps, dmg dodged, uptime and stuff like that. I dont really feel like there is a need for parsers of your whole group since there are no raid environment. If you want the most 1337 group then you can ask the person or take them with you and actually see how they perform. If you are hardcore and looking for a like minded individuals then Im sure you all will try to push for as good perfomance as possible together anyway so the parser isnt really needed to see others performance.

#49 bookworm438

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:25 PM

View PostDrakaari, on 16 August 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Meter and even Gear Comparison are good features to have, in of themselves, but the way people react to them is generally flawed.  Both are simply information gathering tools, but people with superiority/inferiority complexes usually corrupt the meaning.

In WoW, I've always had Dmg Meters, it was one of the first mods I ever installed, as it was the only way to guage MY OWN performance, and as long as whatever group or raid I was in was progressing through content, I didn't care if others were under performing, I was trying to "beat my own records" or catch up to the people who were performing better than me.  But there have always been the arseholes that simply because they do X amount dmg, they believe it gives them the right to slander everyone who does less.  GearScore made things even worse.  Which mostly in fault of the players who chose to be ignorant to the literal/effective workings of the game.

With WoW being designed around Gear>Skill, if you had two people in equal gear and equal skill, they'd do exactly the same dmg.  But if you modify the Gear to Skill ratio between the two (in this case, Better gear on the Less Skilled player) it eventually reaches a point where no matter how skilled you are, you're not going to out-dps the hurp-a-durp faceroller that has better epics.  Oh how many times, I'd go to a PUG Raid, and the organizer refused to take one of my friends because they're GearScore was slightly too low, and we'd lay into the bosses, and the dps in the best gear was doing 1/2 the dmg as everyone else, but that was just fine and dandy, cause hey, he had the highest GearScore, right?   Anyway, the problem is not the meters, it's the players misusing them as tools.

I'm getting more and more excited about GW2 having less focus on "Endgame", because the definition of the term in Gaming Standards these days is more like "The End of the Game"...

While gear score and a damage meter can be helpful, I actually find them redundant. It contributes to the idea that gear and damage mean everything. Never mind that you have to be able to juggle doing damage, stunning/interrupting the mob, removing conditions and other bad things from allies, while moving to avoid mobs. If the mob dies, and you're still alive, you know you're doing good. If it takes you 5 minutes to kill a single normal mob, you know you probably have some problems. If you are dying a lot, you know you're doing something wrong. You should easily be able to pick up that exotics are the best gear in the game just from reading.

I've said for a while that in GW2, "endgame" is how you define it, as long as it's not raid progression. This can mean everything from running alts, to going through areas you've missed, to running dungeons, to going through old areas to see what they added, to trying to a lot of achievements, to PvP. Endgame can even mean the literal definition: the game as ended, time to play something else. Right now in GW2, I'm not even max level and I'm like a kid in a candy store. Exploration is definitely rewarded in this game.

#50 Drakaari

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:35 PM

View PostDrakaari, on 16 August 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

I'm getting more and more excited about GW2 having less focus on "Endgame", because the definition of the term in Gaming Standards these days is more like "The End of the Game"...

Another Genre that would be a good comparison of what GW2's End Game seems to be, is Sandbox Games, like GTA4 or Prototype, where the driving force to get to the endgame, isn't so you can get on the Gear Treadmill, but so you have access to all the Features of the game, and can continue doing more of what you found to be the most fun on the way to "The End Game"

One things I was wondering, on the topic of "End Game" is Guild activities.  Being as Raiding is considered End Game in most MMOs, inadvertantly a lot of guilds are built around the notion of Raiding to varying degrees.  You had Casual/Social Guilds, that never raided current content, but was a generally friendly atmosphere. Then you have PvP Guilds, that never raid, and purely form Arena/RBG groups.  Then there is Softcore Raid guilds (my personal preference), where raiding is the focus, but it's still generally relaxed and social oriented.  Lastly the Hardcore Raid Guilds, they raid as much as possible, and generally demand excellence, and while there is nothing wrong with that, I was always a gungho min/max players, but I was never lucky enough to find a "Laid back Harcore" guild, and couldn't stand the rampant pompousity.

What kind of activities would those stereotypical "Guild Types" do in GW2?  Obviosuly PvP guilds would focus on sPvP and WvW.  I know Dynamic Events and "World Boss" type events scale to how many players are participating.  using say the Shatterer type event as an example, how would the fight change, and what exactly would the reward be, if say 5-6 guilds showed up, and joined the fight?

#51 Laranaxar

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:43 PM

Also don't forget that there is no "holy trinity" in GW 2. I believe its much harder to read a "DPS-tool", when players can't be put in roles like tank, healer or DPS - since every player has to serve all roles at once. And.. you don't have support/ control, dodging and movement on that - and all of these will be generally much more important in GW2 - I think.

#52 treeqt

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:44 PM

The best meter for your skill is your success.
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#53 Drakaari

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:51 PM

View PostLaranaxar, on 16 August 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Also don't forget that there is no "holy trinity" in GW 2. I believe its much harder to read a "DPS-tool", when players can't be put in roles like tank, healer or DPS - since every player has to serve all roles at once. And.. you don't have support/ control, dodging and movement on that - and all of these will be generally much more important in GW2 - I think.

and Utility actually means something again!  That is what I missed so much from EverQuest, where I played a shaman as my main, i could do a little dmg, and help heal here and there, but the main thing I was expected to do, is Debuff the enemies and provide insanely powerful buffs to the group, so even though I didn't do much dmg, I increased the dmg my group, as a whole, far more than just having another DPSer.

#54 Except

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:53 PM

View PostDrakaari, on 16 August 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

...  Oh how many times, I'd go to a PUG Raid, and the organizer refused to take one of my friends because they're GearScore was slightly too low, and we'd lay into the bosses, and the dps in the best gear was doing 1/2 the dmg as everyone else, but that was just fine and dandy, cause hey, he had the highest GearScore, right? Anyway, the problem is not the meters, it's the players misusing them as tools. I'm getting more and more excited about GW2 having less focus on "Endgame", because the definition of the term in Gaming Standards these days is more like "The End of the Game"...

As to DPS meter, I kind of agree with you, but it might get a little bit hectic like it did with Gear Score. Speaking of which, I absolutely hated itself and how people used it. You can't summarise an individual's skill, gear, dungeon/raid progression and overall familiarity with the game using a single score. I know it was only designed to make people's lives easier so that they don't have to go through each single item and decide whether to invite someone into the raid or not. But people got completely obsessed with it. It went as far, as people not looking at sockets and enchants etc. I could wear my PvP gear and still get into raid just 'cause my gear score was high enough. You know the stuff. So, my concern is that people will start to take your damage output as the main indicator of skill. It even happened in WoW later on, when they got rid of GS.

View PostLillpappz, on 16 August 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

I would love an ingame parser that only shows your own dps, dmg dodged, uptime and stuff like that. I dont really feel like there is a need for parsers of your whole group since there are no raid environment. If you want the most 1337 group then you can ask the person or take them with you and actually see how they perform. If you are hardcore and looking for a like minded individuals then Im sure you all will try to push for as good perfomance as possible together anyway so the parser isnt really needed to see others performance.

That would be nice, indeed. Some kind of report in the end of the dungeon or just a simple DPS meter available only to yourself would be acceptable, although it always has a risk of turning on the 'dark side', leading to a scenario I described above.

As to the redundancy of the features, I have to admit that they are somewhat too simplistic. As you said bookworm your performance is not just based on damage output.
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#55 Except

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:56 PM

View Posttreeqt, on 16 August 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

The best meter for your skill is your success.

Brevity is the soul of wit ^^
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#56 Nightmare_Pwner

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 05:36 AM

Bottom line is the endgame of GW2 is completely different than WoW's incentive-driven endgame and PVE'ers who don't realize that are in for a surprise.

#57 Fatalityz

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:13 AM

If they can do Open world bosses right Ala FFXI then trust me from experience its better than a raid in WoW usually harder and a hell of alot more rewarding. Kind of a weird twist of irony that the most major MMO after WoW is more PvP focused than PvE.
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#58 Except

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 03:29 PM

View PostNightmare_Pwner, on 17 August 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

Bottom line is the endgame of GW2 is completely different than WoW's incentive-driven endgame and PVE'ers who don't realize that are in for a surprise.

I don't even know what I would do without this sum up. Thank you, sir, for the enormous amount of work you've put into this post. Your contribution into this thread will not be forgotten.
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#59 BaklivaX

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:21 AM

WoW dps meters were fine, same as gear score, it's just the community that was/is retarded.
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#60 Usk

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:31 PM

View PostExcept, on 13 August 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

Yeah, I'm totally with you. It sounds good to me as well. But we are all used to that idea of getting through these 80 levels as fast as possible in order to get to do the raids and PvP. I understand that there is tons to do and a lot of ways to show people you've achieved something, but do you think simply 'looking different' as opposed to 'be stronger then everyone' be enough for the players?

For those who think this is not enough, maybe GW2 is not the game for them. They should look up for some grinding based MMO's, not saying its bad, just different.

I think GW2 'end-game' is finishing all the content, completing all those Achievments, explore all zones etc. Its enough for me. And im sure  (or at least i hope) ArenaNet will launch an expansion before we are done with all this content.

Having some incentives like Gearscore (based on the 'exoticness') and ranking like LoL Elo, will push players to keep playing to achieve always a high score. Not sure if ArenaNet will implement this on the game, but I think many players will agree and like this mechanic.




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