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#21 treeqt

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:19 AM

Some dude on guru made a calculation based on what we know already regarding the amount of dungeon runs you have to do to get a full set of end level gear and he came up with 57 dungeon runs.
http://www.guildwars...nd-you-updated/
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#22 Except

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:41 AM

View Posttreeqt, on 14 August 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Some dude on guru made a calculation based on what we know already regarding the amount of dungeon runs you have to do to get a full set of end level gear and he came up with 57 dungeon runs. http://www.guildwars...nd-you-updated/

Wow! A great post! After all, 57 dungeon runs, is not that much, is it?I mean if you can run through the dungeon more than once a week then people who want to get the set, will get it fairly quickly. 75+ hours of the WvWvW on the other hand sounds like a lot of time-sinking ^^
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#23 treeqt

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 11:05 AM

If you can complete 2 dungeons a day for 6 days a week it will still take you more than a month to complete your set after you hit lvl 80.
I personally hope that two thirds of the dungeons will be too hard to complete without the gear and at least one third even too hard to complete with full exotic gear so that people actually have to become good at this game (compare to super kaizo worldfor example). I don't want everyone to have all the content cleared a week after launch or some shit like that.
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#24 Except

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:03 PM

View Posttreeqt, on 14 August 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

If you can complete 2 dungeons a day for 6 days a week it will still take you more than a month to complete your set after you hit lvl 80.
I personally hope that two thirds of the dungeons will be too hard to complete without the gear and at least one third even too hard to complete with full exotic gear so that people actually have to become good at this game (compare to super kaizo worldfor example). I don't want everyone to have all the content cleared a week after launch or some shit like that.

Of couse, that would be terrible, and I think Arenanet learnt form WoW's mistakes and I would take it even further. I hope that gear wont greatly affect how easy a dungeon is for you at all, I prefer all of it to be focused on skill rather than gear as much as possible. That would be great. I demand skillz in my MMORPGSz!

As to the games that require skill take a look at I wanna be the Guy: Gaiden. ^^
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#25 Drakaari

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:55 PM

I just have started looking in to Guild Wars 2 in the past couple of days, and I'm really getting excited.  And honestly, I think the change in content direction will be great.  I started out on Everquest when I was 16 (26 now) and it's content was FAR too narrow, hell, at the time I was playing, all but 2-3 classes were incapable of soloing anything that wasn't 10-20 levels lower.

But, switching to WoW was great for me, everyone could solo, combat was faster and more fluid, and back in vanilla, there was some very fun ways to manipulate various aspects of the world, for instance, when I started my hunter and learned how to kite, I spent weeks, just see what I could kite, either to kill, or to screw around with the community. I kited many 55+ elites to death at level 36, which didn't give any real reward, as I'd have to run the things around for 20-30 minutes for a single kill, but my friends and guildies really dug the show.  I'd also kite World raid mobs into cities, which the people on my server loved (honestly, they constantly asked me to pull more), for example, I'd kite packs of the Green Dragonkin from Ashenvale into Org, and they'd run rampant killing everything in sight till people got organized enough to down them, as they were geared for 40-man raids, but my god when they went down, people were cheering and congratulating each other.  but then it seemed like each progressing expac took more and more interesting things like that OUT of the game, and restricted it more and more into the never-ending treadmill of gear progression. I've only recently quit playing WoW, having leveled 3-4 full servers worth of characters, raiding, pvping, just got bored with it all.

I really like the Idea of GW2 content being so open, I'd personally compare it less to other MMO Standards, and more in line with other popular multiplayer games, like FPSs (CoD, Halo, BF).  FPSs have no end game, and although they added levels, and prestige levels etc etc, the levels don't really affect what you do in the games. So if FPSs have NO Endgame, why do people still play them hours a day, everyday?  Because they're FUN! (for the people who enjoy them, like myself) Yes, all you do is play the same maps over and over, but you can use different weapons, play with different class loadouts, play different game modes, but all in all, it's because the game is fun that people keep playing them.

And that is how I'm looking at GW2.  It's not about just racing to max level, so I can run them same 3 dungeons a million times, so i am geared enough to run the same raids a million times, so I can run the next level raid etc etc etc...

Just because a game is an MMORPG, doesn't mean it has to meet the standards of every other MMO. In this case, I'm gonna try to look at this game with more of the FPS mentality of "Play because it's fun, not just progression" cause, I've played CoD pretty much every night 3 years, and I still have as much fun now, as I did when I first started.

Cheers.

EDIT: Another thing I forgot to add about pvp. when I heard that gear in pvp would be normalized for balance, that fact alone intrigued me to look more into the pvp aspect of GW2.  on WoW, I loved pvp in vanilla, and liked it less and less as time went on.  I never really like the direction it went with Resilience, because you could no longer just casually pvp and have fun. even if you had good pve gear, you couldn't touch anyone in pvp gear.  and just in-general, starting out in pvp became really painful, that as you slowly acquire a  pvp set, you're just this slight annoyance to your opponents, you can't kill them no matter how hard you try, and they can kill you in seconds. In my opinion, pvp is supposed to be more about personal skill and good teamwork, not a gear grind just to able to even think about competeing.

#26 TeamLegacyLOL

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:26 PM

Lots of good replies here. I personally feel that all the game has to offer right now will be enough to satisfy my thirst.

#27 bookworm438

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:44 PM

View Posttreeqt, on 14 August 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Some dude on guru made a calculation based on what we know already regarding the amount of dungeon runs you have to do to get a full set of end level gear and he came up with 57 dungeon runs.
http://www.guildwars...nd-you-updated/

That number is based on Ascalon Catacombs. At this point, we have no idea if you earn more dungeon tokens in subsequent dungeons or max level dungeons. As of right now, with Ascalon Catacombs explorer mode, the minimum number of tokens you can get is 41. Tokens drop off of mobs as well, so you could come out with more than 41 tokens.

#28 Except

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:33 PM

View PostDrakaari, on 14 August 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

I just have started looking in to Guild Wars 2 in the past couple of days, and I'm really getting excited. And honestly, I think the change in content direction will be great. I started out on Everquest when I was 16 (26 now) and it's content was FAR too narrow, hell, at the time I was playing, all
*  *  *
and they can kill you in seconds. In my opinion, pvp is supposed to be more about personal skill and good teamwork, not a gear grind just to able to even think about competeing.

In a lot of FPS games lately (BF3, CoD) the progression itself became more of an 'addiction' than the actual game itself. I never understood people who play FPS games for progression, as it is just silly. You don't play FPS to get 'new shinnies', you play it because you enjoy doing so (like it should be with any other game). Its a whole other story with MMO's, as in almost every other MMO, up to this point (WoW, Aion, WH Online, Rift etc) the main idea was to get more powerful in order to kill a boss to get even more powerful to kill a stronger boss and so on. This is the very basics of PvE in these games. Guild Wars on the other hand, might change that, as it offers interesting content from the start, and when you reach the max level doesn't imply that you MUST have the best gear in order do defeat the strongest opponents, it simply says "Hey, if you are skilled enough, this is not out of reach for you. Go practice and eventually you will be able to do it!". It also doesn't push levelling on you, meaning that you don't HAVE to reach the max level in order to get to much more interesting stuff (in case of WoW, interesting stuff at all), but interesting stuff is there for you from the beginning and all the way up to 80, so that you play the game for enjoyment rather than for progression.

As to PvP, it really is cool that they equalised the stats, again just adding to that feel that it is all based on how good you are at the game and not how good your gear is. It's nice to see that devs finally are starting to understand, that while a lot of people like that 'shiny in the end of the tunnel', other people just like to play the game and actually have FUN, like it is supposed to be in the first place.
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#29 Linkie75

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:45 PM

I think it's pretty important to remember that GW2 is a non-sub game. They don't have to keep you playing constantly, there's no problem with taking a break to play other games, or even not play at all. While WoW has to keep you playing constantly so you will keep playing the subscription fee, GW2 will let you take a break from the game at any time, without consequences for neither you nor arenanet.

#30 Except

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 09:27 AM

View PostLinkie75, on 14 August 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

I think it's pretty important to remember that GW2 is a non-sub game. They don't have to keep you playing constantly, there's no problem with taking a break to play other games, or even not play at all. While WoW has to keep you playing constantly so you will keep playing the subscription fee, GW2 will let you take a break from the game at any time, without consequences for neither you nor arenanet.

Yeah, so they are basically saying "You are gonna keep playing our game because its fun, and not because you are subscribed and don't want to waste your money".
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#31 Lillpappz

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 03:39 PM

People that have played GW1 already know that there is nothing to worry about with GW2 endgame. A lot of people will probably be suprised that they have to work for their gear.

On another note, GW1 have had 35 hour of downtime since its release. 24 of those were when they physically moved the servers to another location. No more 8 hour downtime every wednesday (tuesday).

#32 BaklivaX

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 04:17 PM

View PostLillpappz, on 15 August 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

On another note, GW1 have had 35 hour of downtime since its release. 24 of those were when they physically moved the servers to another location. No more 8 hour downtime every wednesday (tuesday).
That's awesome.
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#33 Kaylos

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 04:25 PM

It seems like they are going for a combination of pre-raid vanilla wow and platform gaming from back in the day.  Who here like me sunk ridiculous number of hours into games like Super Mario Brothers, Metroid, and Contra?  Their was no real gear progression in those games, simply content that got harder and harder and harder.  You kept coming back to give it another shot or because it was fun even if you beat it.

From this post http://www.guildwars...nd-you-updated/ it looks like there is definitely endgame progrssion.  Sure you can get to endgame and get max ilevel stuff from multiple sources, but does it have the stats for your build?  Do you want to create another set of gear for another type of build you might want to use in WvW.  Supposedly dungeon sets or other obtainable gear you have to work for will possibly have more extreme stat ratios.

So you may need to grind in order to optimize your build.  I wouldn't be surprised if you needed to do PvE to optimize your gear sets in WvW.  Necessary, probably not.  But if your going to do it long term, you might as well get the the most optimal sets of gear you can right?  And then how many types of gear sets will you have.  Even with a defensive build, I found myself looking at different stat loadouts based on the weapon sets I could use here http://www.gw2skills...itor/en/.  With the build I was looking at, I could conceivably carry 3-4 types of gear.  Maybe I have a set that maxes out swiftness duration so I can provide a group a 33% speed buff 100% of the time.  Maybe I then have my support healing set that maximized my survivability and healing, while using mace/shield and hammer for CC.  Maybe I also have a Power/Crit set for using with a rifle during seige defense with a sword/warhorn for escapability.  Maybe I then have a balanced set of gear for 1v1 that optimizes a combination of damage and survivability.  Maybe I get another set of gear for condition damage to fill that role in a group.

You are talking about obtaining one set of gear and how long that would take.  How long will it take me to collect 4 sets of gear for one spec, and then maybe some more for another spec if in case I get bored with that one.  This could take a while.  That isn't even counting collecting gear for how it looks, though that may take less time than collecting it for the variation in stats.

#34 Except

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 05:39 PM

View PostKaylos, on 15 August 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

It seems like they are going for a combination of pre-raid vanilla wow and platform gaming from back in the day.  Who here like me sunk ridiculous number of hours into games like Super Mario Brothers, Metroid, and Contra?  Their was no real gear progression in those games, simply content that got harder and harder and harder.  You kept coming back to give it another shot or because it was fun even if you beat it.

From this post http://www.guildwars...nd-you-updated/ it looks like there is definitely endgame progrssion.  Sure you can get to endgame and get max ilevel stuff from multiple sources, but does it have the stats for your build?  Do you want to create another set of gear for another type of build you might want to use in WvW.  Supposedly dungeon sets or other obtainable gear you have to work for will possibly have more extreme stat ratios.

So you may need to grind in order to optimize your build.  I wouldn't be surprised if you needed to do PvE to optimize your gear sets in WvW.  Necessary, probably not.  But if your going to do it long term, you might as well get the the most optimal sets of gear you can right?  And then how many types of gear sets will you have.  Even with a defensive build, I found myself looking at different stat loadouts based on the weapon sets I could use here http://www.gw2skills.net/editor/en/.  With the build I was looking at, I could conceivably carry 3-4 types of gear.  Maybe I have a set that maxes out swiftness duration so I can provide a group a 33% speed buff 100% of the time.  Maybe I then have my support healing set that maximized my survivability and healing, while using mace/shield and hammer for CC.  Maybe I also have a Power/Crit set for using with a rifle during seige defense with a sword/warhorn for escapability.  Maybe I then have a balanced set of gear for 1v1 that optimizes a combination of damage and survivability.  Maybe I get another set of gear for condition damage to fill that role in a group.

You are talking about obtaining one set of gear and how long that would take.  How long will it take me to collect 4 sets of gear for one spec, and then maybe some more for another spec if in case I get bored with that one.  This could take a while.  That isn't even counting collecting gear for how it looks, though that may take less time than collecting it for the variation in stats.

Well, it was said earlier that once you hit 80 the improvement in gear are not going to be very significant (13% change from rare to exotic), and after that its just slight altering of the stats and items are pretty much the same. So you might not have to have 4 sets of gear for each spec but its up to you and if you really gonna dig those numbers and find optimal items for every situation, then of course its gonna take you a while to achieve what you want. But that's just PvE.

In PvP there is literally no equipment progression and you are just improving the looks of an item, and THAT might become a real problem for some people. I'm not saying it is for me but, hey, when you are sinking the time into PvPing and then all you get is a new rank which gives you some favour and a chest where you find some better looking items... people might get upset.

As for me its perfectly fine and I'm ready to play the game just for the sake of it. I mean to actually have fun and enjoy the process rather than the reward.
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#35 Ctuhlu

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 05:40 PM

Yeah, the important thing to note is that while level 80 items will stop progressing in ilvl, the stats that each item has will be budgeted differently. So you might have a stat budget of 100, and some items will have 50 power / 25 precision / 25 vitality, while another of the same ilvl and armor slot will have 75 toughness / 25 power. So there can still be some min maxing if for instance you want as much Condition damage and toughness as possible, you won't be satisfied with getting a max-ilvl weapon with power and vitality.

There is still opportunities to progress and build the perfect gear setup in PVE, it just doesn't really make you "stronger" like ilvl jumps do in WoW.

Fourreur said:

we have to switch to them making the decision to pop reck or not to pop reck

#36 Ctuhlu

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 05:41 PM

View PostExcept, on 15 August 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

In PvP there is literally no equipment progression and you are just improving the looks of an item, and THAT might become a real problem for some people. I'm not saying it is for me but, hey, when you are sinking the time into PvPing and then all you get is a new rank which gives you some favour and a chest where you find some better looking items... people might get upset.


From my experience in the BWEs, I've found cosmetic progression to be FAR more fun than gear progression in PVP. Though of course some people will feel differently.

Fourreur said:

we have to switch to them making the decision to pop reck or not to pop reck

#37 Kaylos

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 05:56 PM

View PostExcept, on 15 August 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

Well, it was said earlier that once you hit 80 the improvement in gear are not going to be very significant (13% change from rare to exotic), and after that its just slight altering of the stats and items are pretty much the same. So you might not have to have 4 sets of gear for each spec but its up to you and if you really gonna dig those numbers and find optimal items for every situation, then of course its gonna take you a while to achieve what you want. But that's just PvE.

In PvP there is literally no equipment progression and you are just improving the looks of an item, and THAT might become a real problem for some people. I'm not saying it is for me but, hey, when you are sinking the time into PvPing and then all you get is a new rank which gives you some favour and a chest where you find some better looking items... people might get upset.

As for me its perfectly fine and I'm ready to play the game just for the sake of it. I mean to actually have fun and enjoy the process rather than the reward.

You are forgetting WvW, which while more casual than sPvP, is still PvP and there are planty of guilds taking it pretty seriously.  And that gear progression does affect you there.  Of course the difference isn't going to be huge between a non-optimized and optimized set of gear, but it will still be there.  The carrot doesn't have to be big to get people to chase it.

The point is there could be plenty of reason to keep playing for endgame.  The real loss though is raids.  There is a certain kind of player that likes and expects raids.  I bet they could even build raids that people would do even without any real loot incentive if they got some sort of title out of it.

#38 Kaylos

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 05:58 PM

View PostCtuhlu, on 15 August 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

Yeah, the important thing to note is that while level 80 items will stop progressing in ilvl, the stats that each item has will be budgeted differently. So you might have a stat budget of 100, and some items will have 50 power / 25 precision / 25 vitality, while another of the same ilvl and armor slot will have 75 toughness / 25 power. So there can still be some min maxing if for instance you want as much Condition damage and toughness as possible, you won't be satisfied with getting a max-ilvl weapon with power and vitality.

There is still opportunities to progress and build the perfect gear setup in PVE, it just doesn't really make you "stronger" like ilvl jumps do in WoW.

I think it has the potential to make you more efficient with certian builds.  One thing the equipment thread noted was that there were not any crafted Soldier gear (Str, Tough, Vit) one could craft at the time it was made.  That means a specific type of gear that should be popular in WvW will have to be obtained through other means.

#39 Allorah

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 06:02 PM

View PostCtuhlu, on 15 August 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

From my experience in the BWEs, I've found cosmetic progression to be FAR more fun than gear progression in PVP. Though of course some people will feel differently.

If you think about how popular games were like Halo 2 (using a FPS example as mentioned before), that game's popularity was derived from how much fun it was to compete in a ranked pvp structure where the only thing you gained from doing it was a higher number.  If people can be satisfied with that, it's not a hard stretch to think they would be happy with the items they can acquire with the content available to them.

#40 Drakaari

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 06:33 PM

View PostCtuhlu, on 15 August 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

From my experience in the BWEs, I've found cosmetic progression to be FAR more fun than gear progression in PVP. Though of course some people will feel differently.

And, most "progression", in standard terms, it more in the way people think, than in effective gameplay.  in both PvE and PvP, using WoW as an example, in PvE, if your character does 1,000dps, and a mob has 100,000 hp, it'll take you 100 seconds to kill, then factor in "better gear vs stronger mobs", yeah your character may now be doing 30,000dps, but the more difficult enemies have 3,000,000 hp and it still takes you 100 seconds to kill.   nothing actually changed except your perceived power by see larger number, more often.  and the same can be said in PvP, what is the difference in getting the next seasons gear, once everyone else you fight also has the next seasons gear? yes, you'll do more dmg, but your targets will have more health and resilience.

The only literal advantage to having better pvp gear in WoW terms, is that it becomes easier to defeat people who have not yet acquired the better gear, which isn't so much a show of skill, as a show of who has more time to farm gear.

On the other hand, as you stated, customizing the appearance of ones gear is a purely personal achievement, and is quite rewarding when you get the complete desired look, be it unique, bland, quirky or bizarre, everyone has there own idea of what looks "epic"




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