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Guild Wars 2 | The 'Endgame'

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#1 Except

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:12 PM

So, I've been wondering. Guild Wars 2 seems polished already, the PvP is good, dynamic events are great, the variety of activities in the game is pretty large. Good. There are a lot of new techniques including WvWvW and we are all preying that Arenanet wont mess up. There is, however, one thing that concerns me.

With the main component of PvE endgame (raids) gone and with no progression in PvP (except for the ascetic choices), the 'endgame' as a term doesn't apply to GW2 I guess. Well, you scale down to the zone's level and we are all the same when PvPing (gear wise), so Arenanet implies that there wont be any real 'endgame' content, and it seems to me that once you hit that lvl 80, you will just be a bit disappointed. I mean, for all of us WoW 'veterans' the absence of that 'shiny' in the end, might ruin it. For me personally it wont 'cause the game is fun to play as it is and I will just do it even for lvling, because its fun, but I feel like the majority might be put off by the fact, that they wont get any real reward (except for the looks again), when gaining a new PvP rank etc. I was sort of like "Oh... This item is just the same as I got like 2 ranks ago, right. But that's ok 'cause we are all equal, right?". There are not a lot of dungeons in the game either. Its like what... 2 or 3? Yeah.

With all of this in mind, I just want to ask. What are you thoughts on the matter? Do you think Arenanet will give us more motivation to lvl up or will they rely on all that lvling content they put into the game and all the hours they spent balancing the PvP?
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#2 wmd221

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:15 PM

What game actually has an 'end game' currently?

#3 Borentar

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:19 PM

Ill link you a post that a friend of mine wrote regarding GW2 content and endgame.

"Guild Wars 2 has no end game. You go back to previous zones or lower level zones if you haven't been there to play the content you missed while leveling. You are scaled down to about 1 or 2 levels above the zone monster level cap, experience is a little less but you can still play there. The game makes it easy to play with lower level friends.

No, there isn't stat progressions past 80. The best stuff you'll get is Exotic at level 80 and that is the highest level of stats on gear. Legendaries are super hard, time-consuming crafted weapons through the Mystic Forge/Crafting/Random and hard shit in the world to create super badass looking weapons to show people how badass you are. Legendaries will take stats from specific Exotic weapons. Legendaries are for cosmetic effect, no added abilities. You keep getting skill points at level 80 to: A)Buy the rest of your skills, or B)Buy stuff from the Mystic Forge, some items of which you'll need for the Legendaries.

The level 80 content is Orr. A bunch of temples on an island you need to control. If you don't control them, you'll get debuffs on the island from random stuff. Take the temples and some debuffs specific to those temples go away. The island consists only of Dynamic Events, no hearts.

Plus explorable dungeons. There are, and ArenaNet has said this, 8 dungeons, and a total of 25 different paths in total you could take to complete dungeons. One dungeon may have 3 paths in explorable mode, another may have 4. But in total, there are 25, so it's like having 25 dungeons to do at max level. Explorable dungeons are HARD and take some coordination. You do these dungeons for awesome-looking gear.

There's so much to do in this game. Jumping puzzles, map completions, WvW, sPvP, TOURNAMENTS FOR GOLD, dynamic events, Orr, mini dungeons with PUZZLES and BOSSES THAT RAIN LOOT, explorable dungeons, personal story, Legendaries, crafting."

Sounds good enough to me

#4 Except

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:22 PM

View Postwmd221, on 13 August 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

What game actually has an 'end game' currently?

A lot of games do, but the most obvious example would be World of Warcraft, where you do all the boring stuff, and by that I mean leveling, and then you get to raid and pvp competitively, which is considered the 'Endgame'.
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#5 Except

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:27 PM

View PostBorentar, on 13 August 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Ill link you a post that a friend of mine wrote regarding GW2 content and endgame.

"Guild Wars 2 has no end game. You go back to previous zones or lower level zones if you haven't been there to play the content you missed while leveling. You are scaled down to about 1 or 2 levels above the zone monster level cap, experience is a little less but you can still play there. The game makes it easy to play with lower level friends.

* * *
There's so much to do in this game. Jumping puzzles, map completions, WvW, sPvP, TOURNAMENTS FOR GOLD, dynamic events, Orr, mini dungeons with PUZZLES and BOSSES THAT RAIN LOOT, explorable dungeons, personal story, Legendaries, crafting."

Sounds good enough to me

Yeah, I'm totally with you. It sounds good to me as well. But we are all used to that idea of getting through these 80 levels as fast as possible in order to get to do the raids and PvP. I understand that there is tons to do and a lot of ways to show people you've achieved something, but do you think simply 'looking different' as opposed to 'be stronger then everyone' be enough for the players?
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#6 Ensiferz

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:41 PM

As far as raids go you have to look at it this way, think raiding in WoW it gets easier and easier every week why? Well 2 reasons 1: your group is progressing and learning the fights 2: Your group is obtaining more gear which in turn makes the fight easier.

Now look at guild wars 2, you have 5 man challenge modes which you are normally gonna have top gear to be able to finish but you only have 1 factor making that challenge mode easier and that is your individual skill not gear giving you that huge advantage every week making the fight dramatically easier,  granted some people may try these challenge modes and find they don't need the top gear to finish nobody knows because know one has been that high to test that.

On top of that you have WvWvW and Structured PvP as other forms of End game, and then finishing all the other areas of the game the jumping puzzles points of interest etc.

Just my thoughts anyways.

#7 Except

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:51 PM

View PostEnsiferz, on 13 August 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Just my thoughts anyways.

I can't disagree with you about the gear advancement and raid difficulty. It's true, and removing gear upgrades in both PvP and PvE is directed at making a game more skill-based instead of grind-based. My only concerne is that some people might get the feeling that PvE in GW2 sucks just because of the lack of that consistant progression at level 80 like they may've had in WoW.
There is, indeed, a lot to do in the game (WvWvW, sPvP, Puzzles, like you said) and I think we shouldn't get bored ^^
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#8 bookworm438

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:02 PM

In addition to what Borentar said, I should mention that the developers will continue to add dynamic events to zones throughout the game for free. So you might go back to a certain zone 6 months from now and find some new events. They will continue adding free content and features in addition to paid content as times goes on.

And Borentar is half right when he says there's no stat progression. There IS somewhat of a stat progression, but it's more horizontal than vertical. The best gear is level 80 exotic gear. That can only be obtained through dungeons, crafting, mystic forge, and one other thing (WvW or Karma I think?). It will be slightly harder to get than the one lower than exotic, but not a lot. The biggest problem is attempting to achieve the stat distribution you want.

Also legendary weapons, while having the stats of exotic gear, will have a different skin as well as various effects such as a glowing trail.

Once you have the stat distribution the next difficulty will be achieving the look you want. Remember with transmutation stones, you can use any piece of gear you wish with the stats you want. And then with marks, you can turn any gear combination into a set.

Will it be enough to satisfy those who love raids? Probably not. However, hardcore raiders are actually a minority, albeit a vocal minority. Guild Wars 2 is not geared towards them.

#9 Except

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:15 PM

View Postbookworm438, on 13 August 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:


*   *   *

Will it be enough to satisfy those who love raids? Probably not. However, hardcore raiders are actually a minority, albeit a vocal minority. Guild Wars 2 is not geared towards them.

Well, the most fun part of WoW, apart form PvPing which let's be honest, wasn't that fun anyway, was to get together as a guild and spend a week after week trying to beat that one encounter you couldn't finish just yet. As previously mentioned gear (almost) will not advance and all of that is intended to be purely skill based, but should still be interesting non-the-less.

So do you think the PvE guys will stick with WoW, as it is second to none when it comes to offering PvE 'Endgame' content? 'Cause a lot of PvPers are definitely coming over to GW2 side ^^
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#10 bookworm438

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:29 PM

View PostExcept, on 13 August 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

Well, the most fun part of WoW, apart form PvPing which let's be honest, wasn't that fun anyway, was to get together as a guild and spend a week after week trying to beat that one encounter you couldn't finish just yet. As previously mentioned gear (almost) will not advance and all of that is intended to be purely skill based, but should still be interesting non-the-less.

So do you think the PvE guys will stick with WoW, as it is second to none when it comes to offering PvE 'Endgame' content? 'Cause a lot of PvPers are definitely coming over to GW2 side ^^

Depends on what Orr and similar zones have to offer. There are definitely events in GW2 that offer raid quality content in the open world. From what it sounds like, Orr might be an endgamer's dream. Imagine a large scale war going on against Zhaitan. There are events ranging from taking down tough mobs, to taking entire cities, and losing them have more devastating consequences than what we've experienced so far in the beginner zones. So there will most likely be a need for coordinated guilds to do events in Orr. Orr apparently has twice (I think it is) the number of events than most other zones in the game.

However, those that love raids a la WoW will have to find a new game or stay with WoW.

Plus there's dozens of open world dungeons scattered throughout the world with champion bosses at the end and chests. They aren't really called open world dungeons, but the content in them might as well make them open world dungeons. Basically you have these hidden places with puzzles, tough mobs, and even tougher bosses.

Plus they plan on adding player housing and guild halls in a future update. And then they will be having large scale holiday events. I think in the Digital Gaudium interview they talked about using large scale events to make permanent changes to some zones in the future. They definitely showed with the BWE that they have the capabilities and systems in place for them to design such events. It apparently took them 12 hours to design the Hunger Games Royale event.

And who knows what else they have planned for future updates. It'll all depend on what the live team can come up with.

#11 Ctuhlu

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:35 PM

From a PVE perspective, I'm just not sure GW2's endgame will be compelling enough for a lot of players -- and this is coming from someone who loves almost every aspect of GW2, as many of you know. A lot of people will be in for a surprise, or disappointment, especially given the way WoW has trained them. Incentive this, incentive that. Hell take a look at the AJ WoW GD forum and you'll see a few threads saying WoW needs more incentive. Personally I find incentives retarded and that's why I'll be PVPing non-stop (for *gasp* FUN), but people expecting an "endgame" in the traditional sense will either be disappointed, or they will have to convert to aesthetic endgame, which will be tough for a lot of people.

I think that once people are level 80 and wondering what to do next, people will tell them to do the leveling content that they missed. And we all know what they're going to respond with: "why would I do leveling content when I'm max level?".

Bottom line is the endgame of GW2 is completely different than WoW's incentive-driven endgame and PVE'ers who don't realize that are in for a surprise.

Fourreur said:

we have to switch to them making the decision to pop reck or not to pop reck

#12 Except

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:51 PM

View Postbookworm438, on 13 August 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:


Plus they plan on adding player housing and guild halls in a future update. And then they will be having large scale holiday events. I think in the Digital Gaudium interview they talked about using large scale events to make permanent changes to some zones in the future. They definitely showed with the BWE that they have the capabilities and systems in place for them to design such events. It apparently took them 12 hours to design the Hunger Games Royale event.

And who knows what else they have planned for future updates. It'll all depend on what the live team can come up with.

Really? 12 hours? Wow. That sounds promising. The content they are putting in place is good enough for me. And I absolutely love the idea of open world bosses, and battles and stuff. Now its a question of whether Anet will be able to keep it going, and not failing with the content update timings like Blizz do, but that's another story.
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#13 Except

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:58 PM

View PostCtuhlu, on 13 August 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

From a PVE perspective, I'm just not sure GW2's endgame will be compelling enough for a lot of players -- and this is coming from someone who loves almost every aspect of GW2, as many of you know. A lot of people will be in for a surprise, or disappointment, especially given the way WoW has trained them. Incentive this, incentive that. Hell take a look at the AJ WoW GD forum and you'll see a few threads saying WoW needs more incentive. Personally I find incentives retarded and that's why I'll be PVPing non-stop (for *gasp* FUN), but people expecting an "endgame" in the traditional sense will either be disappointed, or they will have to convert to aesthetic endgame, which will be tough for a lot of people.

I think that once people are level 80 and wondering what to do next, people will tell them to do the leveling content that they missed. And we all know what they're going to respond with: "why would I do leveling content when I'm max level?".

Bottom line is the endgame of GW2 is completely different than WoW's incentive-driven endgame and PVE'ers who don't realize that are in for a surprise.

I think if the content is fun enough people will do all of it. The higher lvl or lower lvl stuff, doesn't matter.

The WoW's whole 'incentive' thing comes from their business model. Subscription based MMOs and games in general have to have something that will keep people going. In WoW it's the 'kill the boss to get the shiny to get more shinnies to kill a bigger boss'. However, GW2 doesn't have a sub fee, but they have micro-transactions. So they need a person to buy the game in the first place and if they like it, they will most likely pay these couple of bucks for a hat or sth. If they don't like it afterwards, well that's too bad. You've already bought the game, that's it. One might say that this will cause slower patch releases and lazy attitude, but I hope they will deliver the extra content regularly enough, despite it being free.
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#14 bookworm438

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:08 AM

View PostCtuhlu, on 13 August 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

From a PVE perspective, I'm just not sure GW2's endgame will be compelling enough for a lot of players -- and this is coming from someone who loves almost every aspect of GW2, as many of you know. A lot of people will be in for a surprise, or disappointment, especially given the way WoW has trained them. Incentive this, incentive that. Hell take a look at the AJ WoW GD forum and you'll see a few threads saying WoW needs more incentive. Personally I find incentives retarded and that's why I'll be PVPing non-stop (for *gasp* FUN), but people expecting an "endgame" in the traditional sense will either be disappointed, or they will have to convert to aesthetic endgame, which will be tough for a lot of people.

I think that once people are level 80 and wondering what to do next, people will tell them to do the leveling content that they missed. And we all know what they're going to respond with: "why would I do leveling content when I'm max level?".

Bottom line is the endgame of GW2 is completely different than WoW's incentive-driven endgame and PVE'ers who don't realize that are in for a surprise.

This I agree with. Those that come into GW2 expecting an endgame like WoW will be completely disappointed. Now that's not to say it's not incentive driven. I would say it's more along the lines of "not loot driven". You set your own personal goals and try to achieve them. Unfortunately, some players don't like setting personal goals and want the game to set it for them, which Guild Wars 2 doesn't do.

GW2 is a non-linear themepark, and that's going to be a tough adjustment for some people. You can go on whatever ride you like whenever you want (except for dungeons that's too high for you, or content that's too high for you). At level 80, it definitely is a non-linear themepark MMO. They aren't guiding you down a specific path or to do anything. It's up to you to pick what ride you want to go on.

View PostExcept, on 13 August 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

Really? 12 hours? Wow. That sounds promising. The content they are putting in place is good enough for me. And I absolutely love the idea of open world bosses, and battles and stuff. Now its a question of whether Anet will be able to keep it going, and not failing with the content update timings like Blizz do, but that's another story.

ArenaNet's update schedule is different from Blizzards since they don't have to worry about bringing down the game just to patch it. This means very little downtime for us, and it allows them to roll out updates much easier. I remember back in the hey-day of GW1, we'd get updates maybe a couple times a month (they were generally balance updates and bug fixes but still).

Since they are probably sticking with GW1 content update cycle, we'll probably get balance updates at least once a month, bug updates as necessary, and content updates at least once a quarter. I know they want want to get player housing and guild housing in as fast as possible. They MIGHT consider mounts and dueling for an update post release too. I think they also want to add new maps for sPvP.

I don't now if we'll see content updates like whole new dungeons added to the game, but they'll definitely do holiday events and add in new events to the game (but they won't direct people to it by putting it in the patch notes). Remember, this is B2P which means they make a lot of their money off of selling content that we pay for. So we may see the largest content updates in expansion packs (which if they are anything like GW1, they'll be entire continents). I think they want to release a new expansion at least once a year.

#15 Zyfoh

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:12 AM

There is gear progression and there is Endgame content aswell.

First of all, you can't just buy white level 80 gear and then have the best gear, white gear is extremely bad compared to level 80 exotics. So for example a rare sword is 13% worse than a exotic sword, and most of the rare gear is buyable with karma that you get from map progression like dynamic events etc and also completing dungeons, and the exotics you can only get from dungeon currencies which is quite hard since it's a lot of tokens. And all the exotic items have the same amount of stats but they have different stats, for example one item has 20 power and 20 precision while another has 20 thoughness and 20 vitality. And you will improve your performance in WvW and PvE since gear is not getting scaled. But in sPvP everyone has the same gear you only have different builds and runes to keep it balanced. And from sPvP you only gain titles ranks and cosmetic gear and ofcourse you're competing in ladders aswell if you do tournament PvP.

Now to the PvE endgame, there are 25 different dungeons which are quite hard and also there's a large level 80 only endgame island full with dynamic events and progression called Orr. And then there's map progression and since your level gets scaled most of the content will be fun because it still pretty difficult.

#16 bookworm438

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:54 AM

View PostZyfoh, on 14 August 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

There is gear progression and there is Endgame content aswell.

First of all, you can't just buy white level 80 gear and then have the best gear, white gear is extremely bad compared to level 80 exotics. So for example a rare sword is 13% worse than a exotic sword, and most of the rare gear is buyable with karma that you get from map progression like dynamic events etc and also completing dungeons, and the exotics you can only get from dungeon currencies which is quite hard since it's a lot of tokens. [...]

Actually that's not quite true about exotics. You can get them from crafting and mystic forge as well. I believe you can also get it from one other source, but I don't remember. And on average it'll take about 41 dungeon runs to get full exotic, right now.

#17 Zyfoh

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:20 AM

View Postbookworm438, on 14 August 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

Actually that's not quite true about exotics. You can get them from crafting and mystic forge as well. I believe you can also get it from one other source, but I don't remember. And on average it'll take about 41 dungeon runs to get full exotic, right now.

Yeah this might be true, but all the sets have different stats, so it depends on what you want. And also you might want a bunch of different weapons for different builds.

#18 Ascleph

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:52 AM

Just skimmed through the thread since I'm a bit busy atm so dunno if this was said already, but this is what we know so far about the proper "end game":

Orr will be the lvl 80 zone and it'll be a bit similar to what blizzard tried to do with the hyjal/firelands dailies but with dyanmic events (so they'll actually push against you) and you can go as far as you can w/o needing a patch. They actually compared the player invasion of Orr to D-Day. Players will have to fight their way into Orr and capture bases and ancient shrines to help them push further.
Once you are far enough into Orr, you gain access to the dungeon where you'll face the elder dragon.

#19 Windwrath1

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 04:01 AM

"End game" only exists because in old games content stops being challenging, there's not as much PvP focus and/or leveling sucks.

People might quit because the end game isn't like WoW's (which was a copy of EverQuest)), but who cares? You don't have to get 15 million people to have a successful game. GW2 will definitely pull over 2 million and that's plenty.

#20 Except

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:20 AM

View PostWindwrath1, on 14 August 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:

"End game" only exists because in old games content stops being challenging, there's not as much PvP focus and/or leveling sucks.

People might quit because the end game isn't like WoW's (which was a copy of EverQuest)), but who cares? You don't have to get 15 million people to have a successful game. GW2 will definitely pull over 2 million and that's plenty.

Totally. I think 'Endgame' as we imagine it is in the past now and WoW will be the last game to actually use the mechanic. However, people who are used to it, will stick with WoW for a while, and with trinity gone and dodge, block etc. going away in games like TES: Online, WoW will be like the only option for those who don't want a change in MMORPG genre.

But, hey, everyone decides for him/herself. Guild Wars 2 is just different and 'Endgame' as we know it isn't quite there, but I think it will gather much more than 2mil. it was said in another post that GW1 had ~7mil following, so... yeah. Those people have been waiting fr a while. And then there are all the newcomers like me (and probably you ^^), who ran off after the last Cata patch and now are waiting for something new and different. I assume it will gather around ~8mil in total, however, I might be just wrong and the game is going to turn out (highly unlikely) a failure like all the predecessors.
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