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Opinion: Thieves suck in PVP


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#1 fant0m8

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 11:19 PM

This isn't going to be a very detailed topic, but I figured I'd just start the discussion off in this new forum. (Yay AJ, thanks for the GW2 forums!)

I've wanted to main Thief for quite some time in GW2, after I was initially unimpressed with the Ranger the Thief suited my preferred playstyle the most. In BWE1 and 2 I played my Thief up to level 40 and got a lot of PVE experience (this game is way, WAY more fun to play in PVE than I expected). I did a good bit of structured PVP too on the Thief and a little on some other classes.

In BWE3 I did almost exclusively sPVP, on the Thief, Warrior, Ranger, Necro, and Mesmer.

Conclusion: I am no longer rolling Thief as my main or even my first alt.

Quick reasons:

1) The thief is very weak defensively. I built every class as "glass cannon-y" as I could and the Thief was the only one that I felt like I died fast on.

2) Almost all the weapons suck for PVP. You have a lot of useless abilities and generally because of the initiative system you never want to use them. There's 1-2 good abilities that you use all your initiative on and the rest are ignored.

3) Having a 2nd weapon is mostly pointless in a fight. Because initiative doesn't recharge when you switch weapons, you're never going to use a few abilities on weapon 1 and still have enough initiative to do anything on weapon 2. Even if you did, why would you? One or the other is going to have a better ability so you might as well just use all your initiative on that best ability.

4) Thief is incredibly weak in melee. You rely on Cloak and Dagger, a skill that requires a huge Initiative cost, has a cast time, and must be manually landed to actually have any effect. If you miss your C&D (opponent moved, interrupted you, knocked you down, etc) then you don't even stealth, and you're completely fucked.

5) You don't really lock down opponents as much as the other classes. Sure there are a few disables but mostly you just have speed/dodging on your side. The opponent will be free to retaliate/run away for the most part. Basically you need a partner to really lay into someone, otherwise you're not going to do much.

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Really the biggest problem was the defensive issues that I had. You can't really go invisible that many times unless you're blowing big cooldowns or in melee range, and if you're not invisible then you're slowly (or quickly) losing the fight almost without question. Not to mention you can still take a TON of damage while invisible (dots, melee swings, AOE abilities still hit).

When I compared my experience on the Thief to the Warrior and Necro, it wasn't even close. I'm definitely rolling those classes before I even touch the Thief in GW2.

This is all very odd to me, I'm NEVER a "warrior guy" or "warlock/necro guy" first in MMOs/RPGs. But GW2 has shaken up my preconceptions and for now I have to abandon my first choice.

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Final note: Not that this is bad for the game as a whole, I am completely enjoying the classes that I did choose, and both PVE and PVP was a lot of fun on those classes. Can't wait to play the game... just not on a Thief.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#2 Zaephyr

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 11:24 PM

thief isn't the strongest class at first glance for pvp but it has a lot of abilities that make it useful for roaming around taking secondary objectives etc, I recommend reading http://www.arenajunk...vp-thief-guide/ before making any cast-iron decisions, it explains a lot of things really well and shows about other ways in which thief can be useful in spvp.
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#3 Chaoszx

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 11:45 PM

For the most part, I agree with you. The thief has very few builds that are actually viable; most which are ranged or some sort of team support build like venom sharing.

I ran a really strong "Bleed and Speed" build in BWE3 that focused on bleed stacking(Sigil of Superior Earth), extremely high crit and extremely high mobility. It was one of the few builds I actually felt had a good chance of competing with other classes and that could stay alive long enough for me to be helpful in team fights. Here comes the stress test and they not only nerfed Sigil of Superior Earth to the ground, but they also nerfed Ankle Shots and Ice Drake Venom; and they had also pushed "Fleet of Foot" deeper into Acrobatics AND gave it a 10-second cooldown prior to this recent nerf. Granted I do have another similar build that works good, but not AS good.

Melee thieves... I just feel bad for.

#4 Esoterikk

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:28 AM

Melee thieves yes, shortbow/pistol-dagger thieves not at all. Anet is actually slowly buffing thieves as we approach release as well with a few changes happening this stress test, we do lack a lot of viable builds but we have a couple and I am happy enough with that for now because I enjoy how the class feels enough to continue to play it.

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This was posted during todays stress test, Mike Ferguson is a developer at A net.
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#5 WildeHilde

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:26 AM

I'm going to stick with my thief and if it really turns out to be too weak for a longer period, which I doubt, rerolling takes only ten minutes.

#6 Smellyead

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:31 AM

I don't think thieves are as bad as people make out, I've been playing one along side my ranger and warrior, yes, thieves are squishiet than those two but they have allot more mobility and possible escape choices.

#7 Lunde

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 09:20 AM

I played a lot of melee thief and I used the combo S/D - Bow which I felt was really strong. You had a lot of evasive abilities, which is a dodge per say. So you could run around in melee and use theese evasive abilities to dodge and do damage, then when you felt you had to get out... switch bow and use the roll for initiative/bow ability to jump back. :)
+ You got the normal dodge (obviously) to improve this whole evasive build :)

#8 ValorLotD

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 02:57 PM

Through a lot of testing, prior to this current weekend where I would assume that some major balance changes are being made to classes, we have determined that Thiefs are in fact a bit underpowered in comparison to other classes in SPvP.  Thiefs can be a PITA to kill, but lack in utility to other classes in a 5man or 8man team.

We will have to keep our eyes on this class to see if they get buffed up some, but before anyone writes a class off, wait until closer to launch.  So much can and probably will change between then and now.
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#9 Keefin

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 03:03 PM

Their venom P/D, Shortbow build is really strong, but melee Thief could certainly use some help. As stated above, I've heard from Devs that we should expect Thieves, Necro, and Mesmer to get a few buffs before launch.

#10 Sensational

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 04:43 PM

The thief seems ideal for backcapping and stealing points, with the conquest system that might be valuable. However, at the 5v5 scale, that's not going to be enough to make thief worthwhile if they can't properly deal with whatever defender might come back for the point.

#11 Tentacle_Love

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:18 PM

Well, the class isn't for everyone.
If you love dodging though, they've got some great stuff.

#12 malaak

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:21 PM

seems you rolled with the standard setup everyone shows in its vids for thief hun?
like... pistol/pistol dagger/dagger or something?

Try something new thats what its about.
I played thief 80% of the BWs, mostly sPVP. And NEVER used any stealth or alike and rolled pretty good with it. If u step away from the standard crap everyone is showing off n u can get some pretty good combinations.

I would just advise u to maybe take a look at the healing skills as lil first hint on how to get a thief to withstand anything...
a thief can easylie take down 2 or 3 of 5 in an 5vs5 (depending on the enemys classes) without any problems.
just because its a thief , it doesnt mean u need to rely on backstabbing, poison n stealth lol

But yeah its hard to judge if u dont really try stuff, thats why i wouldnt judge on the warriors strenght, cause i didnt try much besides using the standard crap everyone is showing off

#13 Usk

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:31 PM

You must take into account that the game is still on development and yeah, maybe the Thief wasnt the best of the classes for PvP this BWE but maybe they will get balanced with the time. Since I started playing MMO's I would rather pick a class that I enjoy (becouse of the mechanics) than just picking a class becouse its OP.

#14 bookworm438

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:49 PM

As others have said, before you write off a class based off of balance, wait until release. I think Mesmer and Thief are going to be the hardest classes to get into and probably have the highest skill cap in the game. I think the Thief, much like the Mesmer, will be a highly situational class, who's main object is to pick off stragglers and those who get too confident. But we'll just have to wait until release to see what the release balance is going to be like. They'll continue to balance the thief and other classes after release.

#15 wmd221

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 03:35 AM

I think thieves have 2 major issues right now that need to be addressed and they'd really be perfectly fine otherwise

A. their survivability is too low, high mobility doesn't translate to survivability when you die that quickly, even with 30 acrobat and survivability in your runes.

B. You can't be both mobile and deal damage. The initiative system just doesn't allow it. So when you're playing defense you're doing almost no damage and yet still offer little to no utility other than venoms if you're using a venom build. Even when you're done being defensive you can't immediately switch to offense which is probably my biggest issue with the class.

#16 Magesw

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 04:37 AM

I didn't find the thief to be too terribly bad in PvP either, especially if you catch loners running around.

#17 BaklivaX

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 09:05 AM

Thief seems just fine to me, thief survivability seems fine to me. You just can't play it like full melee that's all.
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#18 nszotyi

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 02:20 PM

Well dude, try the uncatchable build from gw 2 codex   i ran all the time with this  (with a few changes ofc : ) )  i win all of the 1 v 1 situations, and mostly th 2 v 1 too,  this build contain enough survibality, dmg, and mobility !  if u find yourself in a harder case like  3 v 1,  there is no problem, just stheatlh,  shadowstep away, and go to the next cap point, or  ppl to get help , because of  signet of shadows moblity cant be problem.  btw  the key to bee succecful thief, is to know, when you need to use dodge, thats all

#19 downedlolidiot

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 08:46 PM

The more I play thief the more in-depth understanding I have for it's abilities and that of other classes the more I enjoy it

#20 nszotyi

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 11:03 AM

View Postdownedlolidiot, on 11 August 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

The more I play thief the more in-depth understanding I have for it's abilities and that of other classes the more I enjoy it
  well  its really true :  )




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