Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help

Problems with Mists of Pandaria


  • Please log in to reply
98 replies to this topic

#41 Ctuhlu

Ctuhlu
  • Junkies
  • Draeneiclass_name
  • US-Sargeras
  • Shadowburn
  • Posts: 2730
  • Talents: Restoration

Posted 08 August 2012 - 03:26 AM

re: few players seeing raid content in vanilla

The thing about raiding in Vanilla was that there was no guarantee that you'd ever see the content. And for me, that made it all the more exciting. I remember my first raiding guild. We weren't even on Rag and other guilds were clearing Naxx. But who cared? It was fun progressing, even if we all knew we sucked compared to them. I remember the first time we stepped into BWL; it was like, holy shit this stuff is hard for us. We were bad, but we didn't seem to notice and there was no impatience. No "why am I in this guild when I could be clearing this".

Somewhere along the line this attitude disappeared in not just me, but the entirety of the playerbase it seems. Something's missing. Somehow, raid content being almost inaccessible made it all the more enticing. Now you just queue the raid finder and lose all sense of mystery regarding the fights that you haven't done in the normal mode. You know what the content is and then you just grind it for the next 6 months.

Fourreur said:

we have to switch to them making the decision to pop reck or not to pop reck

#42 Dakkrothy

Dakkrothy
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Outland
  • Misery
  • Posts: 1118
  • Talents: Destruction 1/2/1/2/2/2
  • RBG: 2484

Posted 08 August 2012 - 03:41 AM

I would be furious if the best PvE items(also for PvP) such as trinkets & weapons only would be accessible through 25 hours of raiding / week. So from a PvP point of view I prefer the way raiding works now 100 times more (although the Ideal would be not to have to raid at all).

But I do see where this guy is coming from. I did raid in TBC on a decent level and I enjoyed raiding much more back then, probably because it was 25m and the atmosphere of the actual game was much better.

This guy is obviously a hardcore raider, or has been, and I dont really see where hes coming from when it comes to the actual challenge. Blizzard offers extreamly hard content for the hardcore guilds in the very start of a new raiding tier. Lets look back at wotlk,  how many guilds actually killed Lich kong 25m heroic without any assistance of the % buffs? I think Paragon was THE only guild that made it.

And If im not mistaken, didnt spine heroic take like weeks to kill the first time? I honestly dont think he found it THAT amazing if he would be able to go back and do it all over again.

What blizzard decided to do was just to let the more casual players also be able to experience the same content but on an easier level & I think thats the best way it could be handled. The only downside with the game (in my opinion) is the lack of content being released. Look at season 8 & the current season, almost a friggin year long.

anyway, I think this quote sums up his thoughts pretty well "NOSTALGIA HIDES IMPERFECTION"

#43 Hynníx

Hynníx
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 74
  • Talents: Frost 2/2/0/1/2/1
  • RBG: 192
  • LocationDenmark

Posted 08 August 2012 - 03:45 AM

View PostToitles, on 08 August 2012 - 02:41 AM, said:

A lot of you people are completely ignoring the fact that there has been no new content added to this game in nine months.  Literally the length of a normal human pregnancy.  If you (or your girlfriend or whatever) failed a pregnancy test on the day of the world first heroic Deathwing kill, you could have had a baby by now.  You could in fact have had it in time to go home and post about how WoW is dying during the brief moments of solace you get while the baby sleeps!

Basically what I'm saying is that Blizzard is totally neglecting their game and should really stop doing that every time an expansion ends.

well yea thats why its breaking all records and having to lose 1,1 mil subs instead of other quarters .. but again.. its NOT the world first that matters if the game will lose subs .. its the majority of players which is fairly to be honest " bad " and if they can go into LFR and see all the content.. where we can take WoTLK lich king heroic which took fairly long time to kill ... I guess about 5% of the people killed heroic lich king during WoTLK and the 95% somewhere doing progress of the people who tried.. I think WoTLK even gained subs cause it was the majority missing to do the content so it didnt matter that much if a few did it cause so many still didnt get do it and just hope for them someday to do it ..

had to edit that one cause I am tired as fuck =(

Edited by Hynníx, 08 August 2012 - 03:49 AM.


#44 Toitles

Toitles
  • Junkies
  • Orcclass_name
  • US-Wyrmrest Accord
  • Emberstorm
  • Posts: 677
  • Talents: Destruction 0/2/2/2/2/0
  • 2v2: 1748
  • 3v3: 2115
  • 5v5: 864
  • RBG: 1754
  • LocationOAKLAND CITY REPRESENT

Posted 08 August 2012 - 04:00 AM

I'm gonna be completely honest, I read every word you just wrote and I have no idea what you said.

affix said:

The #1 sign that your thread was unnecessary is if the you can copy+paste the thread title in to google, hit 'I'm feeling lucky', and get your answer

#45 Hynníx

Hynníx
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 74
  • Talents: Frost 2/2/0/1/2/1
  • RBG: 192
  • LocationDenmark

Posted 08 August 2012 - 04:01 AM

View PostToitles, on 08 August 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

I'm gonna be completely honest, I read every word you just wrote and I have no idea what you said.

it has been long long discussion about pointless shit that wont matter :( so yea I Know

#46 phunk

phunk
  • Junkies
  • Dwarfclass_name
  • EU-Outland
  • Misery
  • Posts: 685
  • Talents: Restoration 0/2/2/1/0/0

Posted 08 August 2012 - 10:15 AM

gief a debuff on pve gear making you take insane amount of dmg if you get hit by a player so we don't have to think about raiding! hurray!!

#47 Shrouds

Shrouds
  • Junkies
  • Posts: 1728

Posted 08 August 2012 - 11:46 AM

But the thing is going back and playing on pre-bc servers is still very fun because of the journey. Also because, unless you have naxx gear, you can kill people in aq 40 gear with blues.
One other huge thing is sense of community, on large servers there was a huge sense of community and even small ones too. In pre-bc/bc, with wotlk that died out after Ulduar because ToC was such a crappy instance and you would just pug it. As soon as they made a heroic version of the dungeon with the exact same loot, people just got bored of it.
I think the problems CAN be fixed by doing what he says because think about it. Naxxramas was out for like 7-8 months right? Sunwell was out for a very long time too, I think March 2008, Wotlk came out Nov 13th. So that's many many months, but people still had content, maybe they were burnt out and bored, but they NEVER beat the game and still had something to do unless you were super hardcore that 1-5%.

#48 Mionee

Mionee
  • Moderators
  • Draeneiclass_name
  • EU-Illidan
  • Cataclysme / Cataclysm
  • Posts: 3733
  • Talents: Frost

Posted 08 August 2012 - 04:37 PM

Quote

Wow has definitely become easier for casuals (in terms of useless things like prequests and how just clearing an instance was a feat), and definitely become harder for hardcore raiders.

It's a good thing you have stopped in t11 then. T12 and T13 were the most boring tiers ever (T12 only had one interesting boss which lasted for 2 weeks, everything else was easy and cleared within 2 days, T13 except spine/madness was cleared within the first day), while T11 was absolutely fantastic. T13 in particular, which all boiled down to pure alt stacking and nothing more. There was nothing hard about those :(

I'm not too sure why such a discussion about PvE WFs is here though.

#49 Hynníx

Hynníx
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 74
  • Talents: Frost 2/2/0/1/2/1
  • RBG: 192
  • LocationDenmark

Posted 08 August 2012 - 05:06 PM

the only real challenge that have been for hardcore raiders in Catacylsm would have been firelands - ragnaros heroic which took quite a while to kill.. I mean about the content.... its not about how long its for ... its all about the amount of people who clears it .. not saying 9 months is " Respect " to PvE'rs which i think is far to long but if only few players complete ( % wise )

comparing for a quick change the pve to pvp in MoP  and having the best benefict for both would defeintly be for blizzard to get rid of the LFR system so you wouldnt feel you could complete the game within a day or two after hitting lvl 85 by going in and defeating deathwing .. aswell as shrouds mention the " server feeling " as a comminuty sorta died with LFG but it wasnt as dead as now where its just over with due to LFR... ( good thing about LFG would be if you were on a small server but thats pretty much it I believe ) however yea getting back to it if they just made the pvp power over all the pvp gear and made it BiS for PvP and raiding would be rather more hardcore..
guess that would be the best outcome for WoW and after reading all the comments about " wow is a dying game cause its so old " ... sure some quits but they did years ago aswell cause it was still old but new people come but ifs that easy as you come you lvl to 85 within a few weeks or months you go get 368 or 372 ilvl kill deathwing and feel you got nothing more to do cause you seen it all?

#50 Holypalaswe

Holypalaswe
  • Junkies
  • Posts: 359

Posted 09 August 2012 - 04:32 AM

View PostMionee, on 08 August 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

I'm not too sure why such a discussion about PvE WFs is here though.
Yeah I've stopped discussing since this discussion is mostly about casual pve'ing even though people seem to think otherwise.

#51 Nycto

Nycto
  • Junkies
  • Posts: 1506

Posted 09 August 2012 - 05:31 AM

Disagree with a lot of what he said, what stopped me playing this game a lot before was the amount of time i had to commit to it. Sure the 1% found it fun, but that's such poor design if 1% of your audience can even play your game lol.

The people who complain about how quickly the current content gets cleared, if you compared how raids and players were back in tbc(vanilla too), to how they are now, the skill level has hugely increased in these players. It was inevitable that this would happen, if you play the same game for 5 years you eventually get good at it and you learn from everything beforehand.

I liked this expansion, more than i did with wotlk, i think they did a lot right in this expansion, especially with raiding and dungeons. Also i don't know what this guy is talking about with tbc dungeons being difficult, it is the same as it is now, if you had gear you could clear it with barely any cc and get a dual wielding warrior tank and smash through them stupidly fast, however if you had the quest gear/early gear then sure you couldn't, it is the exact same scenario as now with the current heroic dungeon system.

At the end of the day, blizzard makes this game for it to be played, if 1% of the players are able to play it the design has gone horribly wrong and needs to be changed.

#52 Shrouds

Shrouds
  • Junkies
  • Posts: 1728

Posted 09 August 2012 - 04:43 PM

View PostMionee, on 08 August 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

I'm not too sure why such a discussion about PvE WFs is here though.
It's relates to PvP because LFR/LFD slowly started killing going into the world. Farming materials in Pre-bc and even BC was so common people HAD to go out into the world and that caused a lot of random pvp to occur. It also caused a huge sense of community and value for things. The changes in PvE leaked into PvP and now we have this selling of arena ratings like never before. Basically you can buy whatever you want and don't have to work for it.
This makes both PVP and PVE rewards a lot less meaningful.

#53 Azorex

Azorex
  • Junkies
  • Worgenclass_name
  • EU-Grim Batol
  • Misery
  • Posts: 84
  • Talents:
  • RBG: 2279
  • LocationLeeds, England

Posted 09 August 2012 - 05:43 PM

View PostNycto, on 09 August 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

Disagree with a lot of what he said, what stopped me playing this game a lot before was the amount of time i had to commit to it. Sure the 1% found it fun, but that's such poor design if 1% of your audience can even play your game lol.

The people who complain about how quickly the current content gets cleared, if you compared how raids and players were back in tbc(vanilla too), to how they are now, the skill level has hugely increased in these players. It was inevitable that this would happen, if you play the same game for 5 years you eventually get good at it and you learn from everything beforehand.

I liked this expansion, more than i did with wotlk, i think they did a lot right in this expansion, especially with raiding and dungeons. Also i don't know what this guy is talking about with tbc dungeons being difficult, it is the same as it is now, if you had gear you could clear it with barely any cc and get a dual wielding warrior tank and smash through them stupidly fast, however if you had the quest gear/early gear then sure you couldn't, it is the exact same scenario as now with the current heroic dungeon system.

At the end of the day, blizzard makes this game for it to be played, if 1% of the players are able to play it the design has gone horribly wrong and needs to be changed.

im sorry but this is just wrong all over...

first things first is that, yes while after 5 years players should be better, its not that we got better, its that normal modes got tuned down to the ground to make them more accessible, while heroic modes are still the challenge. the same that muru/kj were difficult in their day, raggy hc, sinestra, lk heroic, yogg+0 were difficult in theirs, and that has NOTHING to do with players getting worse/better.

secondly, yes, it can take your time if you want to be a raider that raids the end content of the game, but in the same way, the normal modes now are a 1shot 2hour job....and if you pay your monthly subscription for an 8hour game, then youre literally the busiest person ive ever met. the reason that ALOT of people are quitting at the moment is because there is nothing to do. there has been a 9month downtime since ds has been out, and if it was back in TBC again, it would be 1% of the population that would have a gripe at 9month downtime...whereas the lower, less hardcore and less time committing players would still be clearing the game content....is this a bad thing? i think not. out of 10million players, if 1% quit due to 9month downtime (the hardcore raiders) then you would still have 9.99mil playing, not the 1mil drop that they have reported.

thirdly heroic dungeons were hard. and his point is valid. sure there were some heroics that were farmable in a 30min time period once badges gear was out and more and more people gained access to bt/mh....but in karazhan gear even they were still hard, their concepts were correct in that agro tables existed, tanks needed to tank, and healers needed mana....not like the zerg fests that are now associated with any heroic instance that comes out. at the start of cataclysm the dungeons were tuned perfectly. you werent supposed to go around 1 shotting stuff, you had to cc, and you had to play properly to clear them, especially the tougher ones. i agree that they were probably tougher for the most of the population, so slight nerfs could be fine...but what the hell is wrong with people having to learn how to play from dungeons before entering raiding, which is supposed to be a harder version of "pve".

1% of the players see the end content within 1month of its release, does that mean that the other 99% see nothing? no. they get to instantly see end content in the shittiest form possible on day of release, and they also get to play watered down fights, a watered down game, and dont get the experience or feeling of excitement that the top 1% get, purely because theyre not given the learning tools to reach the same level....because a minority of players and the blizzard team think that the philosophy of "if 100% of the population see it, then theyre fulfilled and will continue to play for the next few months" works....when in actual fact, it just shortens the game experience and doesnt provide the challenges that the game used to.

#54 Shrouds

Shrouds
  • Junkies
  • Posts: 1728

Posted 09 August 2012 - 05:55 PM

The other good thing about BC heroics was that you need a key to get in, which meant you had to have at least done the normal dungeons enough that you would have gear and experience. Before the nerf you needed at least revered, so there was a bit of farming before you could even enter.
You can say that's bad, but I mean look at it now? How rude and stupid are people in LFD/LFR? I mean even doing old raids
A. no one knows where they're, nor do they care
B. they're so impatient
C. they think they know everything and are rude to everyone
it has never been THIS bad.

#55 Shrouds

Shrouds
  • Junkies
  • Posts: 1728

Posted 09 August 2012 - 07:31 PM

I think though, people will play MoP, see how terrible their design model is and then the numbers of people quitting will increase. I don't know much about guild wars 2, and haven't really been a supporter of it. But I'm looking at videos now and it doesn't seem too bad.
They have the right ideas and the artwork is very cool, but most importantly they have something to prove. Blizzard doesn't, and they absolutely do not care at all. So I think we'll see guild wars 2 people try a lot harder, update a lot more, and care more about adding content than Blizzard.
I don't think you can fix WoW TBH because of how horrible the community has become, you can't make things as hardcore was they were back then because everyone would just reject it.

#56 Hynníx

Hynníx
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 74
  • Talents: Frost 2/2/0/1/2/1
  • RBG: 192
  • LocationDenmark

Posted 09 August 2012 - 07:55 PM

Nothing is impossible but tough it sure is.. the people playing changed a lot since back then e-peen raised more all over the scene.. MoP will depending all on blizzard be a failure or succes but I guess its all about until titan release or whatever that game was called to " take over " as apparently it was the team working with blizzard back in TBC that is on that team. and just to get back to the topic.

when we are saying yea people increased in skill lvl over the years.. but the bosses should just increase equally in skill lvl as simply new ideas make the bosses hard more like rag HC sinestra hc  cata examples ... I guess if WoW has to survive they need content were failure aint a solution if you want to kill that boss.

But I believe that if they didnt make LFR it could have saved hundreds of thousand people from quitting.. just due to the fact that people had to someway work to kill the end boss and maybe would visit firelands before stepping in.. unlikely we will ever get to see what happened back in the days again =/

#57 Shrouds

Shrouds
  • Junkies
  • Posts: 1728

Posted 09 August 2012 - 08:14 PM

View PostHynníx, on 09 August 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

Nothing is impossible but tough it sure is.. the people playing changed a lot since back then e-peen raised more all over the scene.. MoP will depending all on blizzard be a failure or succes but I guess its all about until titan release or whatever that game was called to " take over " as apparently it was the team working with blizzard back in TBC that is on that team. and just to get back to the topic.

when we are saying yea people increased in skill lvl over the years.. but the bosses should just increase equally in skill lvl as simply new ideas make the bosses hard more like rag HC sinestra hc  cata examples ... I guess if WoW has to survive they need content were failure aint a solution if you want to kill that boss.

But I believe that if they didnt make LFR it could have saved hundreds of thousand people from quitting.. just due to the fact that people had to someway work to kill the end boss and maybe would visit firelands before stepping in.. unlikely we will ever get to see what happened back in the days again =/
Well, the biggest problem is just there's no sense of world, I watched something from guild wars 2 and it seems really cool because there's a world to explore and it's dynamic. There needs  to be a sense of danger and mystery. It's not going to happen with WoW because the amount of time and effort they would have to spend to get that back wouldn't be worth it. but yeah Titan is prolly going to be their big thing and more info coming out next year about it.

#58 fant0m8

fant0m8
  • Junkies
  • Blood Elfclass_name
  • US-Eredar
  • Vindication
  • Posts: 4336
  • Talents: Marksmanship

Posted 10 August 2012 - 01:40 AM

View PostHackattack3, on 07 August 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

TBC pve
Low skill requirement for actually pushing buttons (fire mages and destro locks were literally one button back then).  Stiff gear ramp ups from one instance to another.

Kara -> Gruul/Mag -> SSC -> TK -> hyjal/BT -> Sunwell

How was a Hyjal/BT/Sunwell guild supposed to recruit?  Guild purging all over the place.  Need a tank?  Take the GM or guild main tank for a SSC/TK guild.  I remember carrying recruits in pvp to 1850 so they could get a decent pve weapon (esp warriors).  How could you get started in raiding late in the expansion?  You couldn't just jump into hyjal/BT and no one was running Kara/Gruul anymore.  A few classes were lucky enough that they could craft some solid set pieces (shadoweave & spellweave inc)

Huh?

ilvl didn't increase any more in TBC than it has in any WoW tier/expansion.

And it's hard to excuse the raiding rotations, but honestly the challenge came from other sources, not pushing buttons.

Did you forget about badges? You could always buy a 1 tier back set in TBC that was perfectly functional for a new raider until they geared up.

And as for new 70's, people ran Kara and then ZA up until the day TBC died. Not to mention heroics for badges.

If it was someone that was worth bringing into Sunwell, they could get gear, or had it already. The whole point of TBC was that not everyone was raiding the same tier at the same time. You had to invest time before you were ready to see the "bleeding edge" content.

View PostDakkrothy, on 08 August 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

What blizzard decided to do was just to let the more casual players also be able to experience the same content but on an easier level & I think thats the best way it could be handled. The only downside with the game (in my opinion) is the lack of content being released. Look at season 8 & the current season, almost a friggin year long.

That's the exact problem. At the very highest end, raiding is still "hard." But the problem is that everyone has ALREADY EXPERIENCED that content, and thus they have no MOTIVATION, no DRIVE to continue playing. Blizzard CAN'T develop content fast enough to keep a playerbase having fun if all they have to do to "finish" the content is hit a "queue up" button and not fall asleep.

The last season of an expansion was always long, but WoW has never seen this kind of subscriber drop due to that fact. TBC gained subscribers even through what was considered a huge content "lull."

View PostStarcookie, on 07 August 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

[Lots of Vanilla problems]

TBC? The only reason it took shit so long to die was because of bugs. Kael'thas was bugged on release, as was Vashj. M'uru was an extremely hard boss, but even in TBC they nerfed the hardest of the hard within weeks, as it was too hard. M'uru was nerfed 4 times in the first 3 months. The final nerf was 30% with the final patch.

Well yes, everyone knows Vanilla had problems. No one's advocating that we go back to the grinds of Vanilla, it's TBC that people want back.

But not exactly TBC, moreso that "vision" that TBC had, not necessarily the flask time sink and bugged bosses. The idea that IT'S OK for not everyone in the game to see everything that the game has to offer. The idea that it's OK for not everything to be cleared and documented on a PTR before it's even released. The idea that it's OK for you to have to actually go out in the world and travel/explore and spend time NOT in a city opening menus.

And there's no way that you can say that content would have been cleared at the same pace as Wotlk and Cata if the bugs weren't there. Just look at fights that weren't bugged. Did they get cleared in 48 hours? No.

Also I found the attunements to be fun and worthwhile. Sure they aren't very applicable to World First contenders or Top 50 World guilds, but for the vast majority of the playerbase, it was content and engaging activities that gave you something to do if you weren't in a top tier guild that spent hours and hours every week on the cutting edge. And since it was something that not a huge percentage of the playing population could do, that also gave you prestige and distinction outside of your guild's accomplishments.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#59 Shrouds

Shrouds
  • Junkies
  • Posts: 1728

Posted 10 August 2012 - 02:45 PM

ya like everyone was so happy the first time you got into BWL, the first time you even got into karazhan/ or ssc/tk for void reaver/loot reaver. even Onyxia, but that was prolly too long and annoying since everyone back then was bad.

#60 Ctuhlu

Ctuhlu
  • Junkies
  • Draeneiclass_name
  • US-Sargeras
  • Shadowburn
  • Posts: 2730
  • Talents: Restoration

Posted 10 August 2012 - 02:50 PM

View PostShrouds, on 10 August 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

ya like everyone was so happy the first time you got into BWL, the first time you even got into karazhan/ or ssc/tk for void reaver/loot reaver. even Onyxia, but that was prolly too long and annoying since everyone back then was bad.

It was a lot more epic back then. Two things have killed the epicness of entering a new raid. One, the fact that each time a new tier is opened up, all of the previous tier's gear is pretty much given up for free, making the old raid obselete. And two, LFR. The second a new raid is released, everyone of every skill caliber has defeated the last boss of the raid. It's just not exciting to look forward to Deathwing on normal mode and on hard mode once you've killed Deathwing on LFR mode. It feels grindy and a lot less exciting.

Fourreur said:

we have to switch to them making the decision to pop reck or not to pop reck




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

<