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#1 Shrouds

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 10:12 PM

I found this video and it def speaks the truth, what are your thoughts?


#2 Shrouds

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 10:16 PM

And the problems with PvP are obv, flying mounts/LFR/LFD/Materials too easy to farm make world pvp dead, it's Blizzards fault for doing this even though they BLAME THE PLAYER.
Arena points used to take time to get so you had to keep playing, to get full arena gear in BC could take you till the end of the season if u had a 1500 team. So incentives to get better basically.

#3 Ctuhlu

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 10:52 PM

View PostShrouds, on 06 August 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

And the problems with PvP are obv, flying mounts/LFR/LFD/Materials too easy to farm make world pvp dead, it's Blizzards fault for doing this even though they BLAME THE PLAYER.
Arena points used to take time to get so you had to keep playing, to get full arena gear in BC could take you till the end of the season if u had a 1500 team. So incentives to get better basically.

One thing that I think people fail to realize is that Blizzard has added too many incentives to the game. Everything that used to be fun for players to do now has week-long or month-long carrots attached to the end of them. Do this many games and eventually you'll get this piece of gear. Do this many heroics and eventually you can buy this thing. Do this many quests and you can buy this. Do this many raids and in a few weeks you can turn in these points for this item.

EVERYTHING has been incentivized. And now people have grown accustomed to it, and they view it not only as expected, but mandatory. Gone are the days where the majority of the PVP population is PVPing -- whether in Arenas, Battlegrounds, or in the World -- for fun. People grind BG's at the start of the season for honor gear, then they grind arenas for points each week, then they grind raids in order to get gear.

The whole culture behind the game has become one of incentives. It doesn't seem like people play WoW for fun anymore; they just play because Blizzard has craftily created incentives for them that conveniently disguise the game's fundamental revenue stream -- the monthly fee.

People criticize me for criticizing WoW when I don't even play the game anymore, but here's the thing. I wanted to like WoW. Hell, I wanted to keep playing. But as someone who just wanted to play arena for fun, Blizzard's philosophy grew less and less accomodating to that type of mindset. Mists of Pandaria doesn't look to be any different, but for those that like the current incentive-based, weekly-required-participation model, I can completely understand why they would be excited for the expansion. Everything about it -- and the current state of WoW in general -- caters to their preference, and good for them. It's just not the type of game that encourages "playing for fun" as far as I can tell, and that's the type of game that I like best.

Edited by Ctuhlu, 06 August 2012 - 10:54 PM.

Fourreur said:

we have to switch to them making the decision to pop reck or not to pop reck

#4 Hynníx

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 11:20 PM

well can only agree with this guy. He is pretty much right on everything he says apart from 1 thing as I do remember lich king heroic took quite a while to kill ( as I remember )  .. but yea the majority of people wants the things to come easy and first after they done it they realize they wanted a challenge from it.. and to move on to the pvp part which is added in the thing below well... I guess the reason halaa being so populate at its time was cause of the " free world pvp " i mean like there wasnt any time saying you could only do it there and there you could be there all the time if you wanted to and on active servers there would pretty much always be fights going on which was great.

About LFR i defeintly feel it was one of the biggest mistakes I have ever seen .. the most stupid shit they have ever made so " everyone could see the content " even tho their number of players showed otherwise .. the LFG system I believe was somewhat fair to invent depending on what server you were on .. I remember back in vanilla looking for a tank for scholomance which could take hours and that server was even fairly active. back to the raid for a second thinking back of nerfs they are doing to the raids seem quite stupid as in dragon soul with nerf just seems like a joke I guess it was allright in the start but compared to firelands .. I dont have the numbers but the amount of time people were stucked on heroic ragnaros there was quite unreal...

to end this I have to say again I can only agree with guy  from being a vanilla player myself I really miss .. the prequests for like onyxsia and molten core... even karazhan had it and the quests for the special class to get something where you would feel the difference with gear of what class you played...

what a great time that was..unlikely but people can only hope we get to see a part of that again ....

#5 ichor

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 01:57 AM

This guy is spot on, using alot of the same arguments I've been using about this issue myself. I was raiding in a top10 worldwide pveguild through TBC until I found the whole competition a major joke with the release of WOTLK. I specifically remember Ghostcrawler stating that the high difficulty of the Sunwell instance was a mistake, that would never happen again. From that moment on, there was a major change of mindset from Blizzard regarding gamedesign, and both the pve and pvp aspects of this game have been going downhill ever since.

My prime example of hate is the achievement system, how chasing pointless bits and titles became Blizzards attempt of introducing a replacement for the journey, when achievements are thrown at you for doing literally nothing. Farming 300 mounts? OCD, yes, challenge, no. You could possibly find better ways of wasting your life. Dragonslayer, Kingslayer, Destroyer's End, worthless titles similar to the self-fullfillment of banging the same girl every boy in the neighbourhood did twice already (granted you are of a certain standard and not some desperate dog). Despite of that - what the game has become is a tragedy of a gearfest with a playerbase so poor and unqualified that those titles actually started to mean something. That's some relativity for you.

Edited by ichor, 07 August 2012 - 02:01 AM.


#6 Holypalaswe

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 11:22 AM

Saw some of his points but couldn't be arsed to watch it all.
The video is from the point of view of a non-hardcore player. (hardcore players being the ones going for world first, not some shitty kill 1month+ after WF).
The "journey" is still the same for hardcore players.
The long pre-quests for instances? They weren't EPIC or HARD as this casual may think. They were boring and tedious to do, and then  you had alts that you needed to to the same shitty quests on.
He does say getting a world first nowadays is not the same thing as killing a boss (non-WF) in vanilla/tbc. Damn right it's not the same thing.
Getting a world first nowadays is the same as getting world first in vanilla or TBC. I don't know and don't care if killing a boss outside of WFs has changed.

The people who cry are the people who aren't good enough to be the top and still want to consider themselves hardcore. They want to be different from all the other casuals. Bad luck.

Anyways, I haven't raided actively since Sinestra (TIer11), so things may have changed since then. But saying PVE has gone downhill after 40man -> 25man change or after SWP is just not true for hardcore raiding.


reply to guy above.
Pve hasnt gone downhill since SWP. (swp gating was horrible btw <o/)
in other news, steam achievements ruined counter-strike. no wait, who the fuck cares about (ingame) achievements.


View Postichor, on 07 August 2012 - 01:57 AM, said:

"Despite of that - what the game has become is a tragedy of a gearfest with a playerbase so poor and unqualified that those titles actually started to mean something."
That is actually something that I think about, but not when thinking about how PVE/PVP is today but when I think back to how it was in Vanilla. Players with good pve gear would go around ones-hotting other people and everyone was so bad that if you had cleared some instance 1month+ after WF people still though you were good just because you cleared the instance. Only because the awful people that never even stepped into the raid held it to such high regards when in fact it was retardedly easy in comparison to today's raids. (I do not however take away from how hard it was to achieve a WF).

Edited by Holypalaswe, 07 August 2012 - 11:25 AM.


#7 lilpe

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 11:56 AM

I like turtles
http://www.twitch.tv/lilpelilpe streaming arenas on daily basis. Dont forget to click follow
http://www.youtube.com/lilpelilpe just started to fraps arenas

#8 Pattzi

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 01:37 PM

Blizzard is all about money now. PvE in mop is gonna be a casualfest where you can't die in 5mans because 90% of WoW's community is fucking retarded.

#9 Saradave

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 01:38 PM

View PostMENARDI, on 07 August 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Blizzard is all about money now. PvE in mop is gonna be a casualfest where you can't die in 5mans because 90% of WoW's community is fucking retarded.
Yes because we all know that losing 1 mil subs is a typical sign of the 'money-machine blizzard'
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#10 Pattzi

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 01:40 PM

View PostSaradave, on 07 August 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

Yes because we all know that losing 1 mil subs is a typical sign of the 'money-machine blizzard'

They left us 8 months with shitty dragon soul. No new content within a huge time gap. Thats why we're losing people.

#11 Azorex

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 02:28 PM

this video is 100% on the spot.

Blizzard would also make more money from subs if
a) they got more people to come back to the game because of the harder content and more "TBC" like feel
b ) people had to play the game longer in order to progress to see the content they want to see (lets face it, nobody says "wahhhhh this too hard i quit")...everyone would strive to be better.

Edited by Azorex, 07 August 2012 - 02:29 PM.


#12 phunk

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 02:28 PM

I feel the same way, almost as this guy. We need something in the game that is incredible hard to get. It doesn't have to be a OP item, but something that you can proadly show to the world. I remember standing in TBC looking at high rated ppl and their weapons that I knew would be realy hard for me to obtain, I was a clicker then. I worked my way, started to keybind, watch videos and eventually I got the weapon, and then I wanted the shoulders and so on cuz they ment I had become even better. And when there was no items anymore to strave for, I went for titels. They have to create somethin that make you feel like you have improved. I feel like we need something new of this both in PvE and PvP...

Right now we all get the items handed to us, sure its nice that you can get a starting gear from BG's. But you should never be able to obatin a full arena gear from doing regular bgs. It has to requare dedication outside of standing afk with ppl for a week. It has to MEAN something that you obatined i. Maybe it can just be a visual ting, like the gear looks cooler the higher rating you have gotten a praticular season? but the stats remain the same...I don't know but something has to be done.

Its just not enough having a new colour set for 2.2k rating, we need something cooler, and we need something for higher ratings as well, like the tabard in wrath. We need something for every 100, or 200 rating above 2.2 so that people always have something to work for and don't stop playing cuz they might miss out on a glad titel. There should be cooler looking gear that even the rank 1 team havn't recived yet, always no matter what the rating their at. When a season ends, ppl should look up to the once who went realy high, and you will see that even if that guy got a glad titel, that other guy stillg ot higher. Creating competition more competition :)

Edited by phunk, 07 August 2012 - 02:39 PM.


#13 Railander

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 02:43 PM

talking from a pve perspective, the video is 95% one sided. i bet all of my money if mop turned out as BC 2.0 a lot more people would be complaining than what you would think.

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#14 Bonduz

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 02:45 PM

they're still making more money now than they did in tbc, so what do they care

#15 Azorex

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:18 PM

View PostBonduz, on 07 August 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

they're still making more money now than they did in tbc, so what do they care

based on what? the fact that they sell faction changes/pets/mounts/recustomization etc etc to make up for the ever dwindling subscribers?

sure in mop therell be another boost to subs, but it does feel like MoP could be the last "lets hope this one works" for alot of the older players...and the older players are the ones who still make the game what it is..by providing competition, and something for everyone to aspire to. For example. if all the top 10 raiding guilds quit, the raiding scene would suffer heavily since there would be less competition and worse standards. If such players as Minpojke, Dakkroth, Khuna, Cdew, Snutz etc etc all quit, the PvP scene would lose out also because worse players would take their place and lower standards again.

If they took notice of this video, and reworked their aims for the game around it, i can only see a positive outcome..because the new players will have something to work towards, the mediocre players will ALWAYS have something to do, and the hardercore players will have their recognition that they want and deserve, and will also be kept in the game as they would have alts to work on...

Stormwind would be a much emptier place if they watched this video....

#16 Hendie

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:30 PM

View PostAzorex, on 07 August 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

based on what? the fact that they sell faction changes/pets/mounts/recustomization etc etc to make up for the ever dwindling subscribers?

sure in mop therell be another boost to subs, but it does feel like MoP could be the last "lets hope this one works" for alot of the older players...and the older players are the ones who still make the game what it is..by providing competition, and something for everyone to aspire to. For example. if all the top 10 raiding guilds quit, the raiding scene would suffer heavily since there would be less competition and worse standards. If such players as Minpojke, Dakkroth, Khuna, Cdew, Snutz etc etc all quit, the PvP scene would lose out also because worse players would take their place and lower standards again.

If they took notice of this video, and reworked their aims for the game around it, i can only see a positive outcome..because the new players will have something to work towards, the mediocre players will ALWAYS have something to do, and the hardercore players will have their recognition that they want and deserve, and will also be kept in the game as they would have alts to work on...

Stormwind would be a much emptier place if they watched this video....

Thats exactlyhow it works.... who do you think was there before them, you think they have been the "best" players the whole of wow ?
www.twitch.tv/Hendiee

#17 Ctuhlu

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 06:47 PM

I have no numbers to back this up, but I would assume WoW is making more money than ever. Their cash shop PRINTS money, and where other games charge 5 or 10 dollars for things, Blizzard makes what -- 25 dollars for each mount?

Fourreur said:

we have to switch to them making the decision to pop reck or not to pop reck

#18 Bonduz

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 07:28 PM

The game now has a hell of alot more players than it ever did in classic/tbc/wotlk. so until they start dropping to tbc levels they're not gonna do shit, In my opinion they probably have a million brilliant ideas for the game but until the playerbase starts dropping drastically they probably wont bring them out cause they're still getting a stupid amount of money for no effort.

bring out the big guns when you're losing

Edited by Bonduz, 07 August 2012 - 07:37 PM.


#19 Hynníx

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 07:50 PM

thats wrong ... as I remember in the end of TBC the game went from 8 mil to 11 mil sub's and went to 12,9 mil in WoTLK after that it went down again. ( in classic it was around 6 mil as I remember at some point of it ) but guess they earn shit loads from xfers faction change and all the other things ( mounts -.-¨)they want their $ from cause lack of effort to make the game better.

In tbc it went from 8 to 11 mil **

Edited by Hynníx, 07 August 2012 - 07:51 PM.


#20 Starcookie

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 07:53 PM

As somebody who has cleared every instance, except DS, with a world ranking of 25 or better, I can say that I completely disagree with everything he said.

I actually prefer PvE now, to how it was back in Vanilla/TBC. I didn't enjoy having to raid 7 days a week, 6 hours a day, to be competitive, for weeks... months on end.




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