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PvE trinkets in PvP, A comprehensive look


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#1 hypermode_4274975

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 04:26 PM

Hi there Arena Junkies community,

I have made a post analysing all pve trinkets since s3 for their impact on pvp.

In that post I have concluded that only certain types of trinkets are the cause of imbalances and what blizzard should do to remove those imbalances.

I would appreciate it if people read it trough carefully and responded with what they think about it so that blizzard may take a look at it and do something with it, which I think would help increase the the enjoyability of pvp alot.

This is the thread: http://eu.battle.net...524616?page=1#0

I would also appreciate it if someone could repost this on the US forums (not because blues don't read EU, but because I want as many people as possible to see it).

Ofcourse, if I missed a certain trinket or you think a certain trinket was/wasn't OP, feel free to correct me.

Thanks in advance

#2 WildeHilde

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 04:34 PM

I like what you write and think that you do the correct analysis, however with the introduction of pvp power I doubt this will be an issue in MoP.

#3 hypermode_4274975

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 04:39 PM

well besides pvp power, blizzard has stated that they still want people who compete at a high-level in PvE to have an advantage in pvp

#4

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 05:48 PM

very nice, well written post.

i can't re-post it because i'm forum banned from US forums, or i wouldn't mind, sorry :(

Edited by xvee, 12 July 2012 - 05:48 PM.


#5 Saradave

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:49 PM

Interesting tale chap

Edited by Saradave, 12 July 2012 - 07:53 PM.

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#6 hypermode_4274975

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:59 PM

View PostZ4muZ, on 12 July 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Let me get this straight; you've conducted a "research" where the """scientific data""" which is being processed is your own opinion of what makes the aforementioned trinkets to be OP (by simply pointing out how they operate and what they do...)?

It's actually cute and I don't want to bring you down or anything, but completing basic university courses and/or vaguely knowing how a research paper should approximately look like does not make you a scientist :(

While I wholly agree with what you say (the only ''scientific data'' is my personal opinion) I did adres that issue in the first paragraph of my post.

''As a scientist myself, I can say that this survey was done in an entirely unscientific way: the only person interviewed for the perceived ''overpoweredness'' of trinkets was myself, also I started my ''research'' with the assumption that a certain species of pve trinkets were overpowered and I found the evidence to support this claim, so it might be slightly colored.
Because I am the only research subject, I may have forgotten, overlooked or generally missed certain trinkets, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.''

The reason I chose for this layout is that it comes pretty natural to me (I have to do alot of projects like this).
Also, I wanted to impress with the way the data is presented and the conclusions are drawn all the while keeping it readable and coherent.
So I agree with you 100% that this isn't even close to scientific, however this is the only way I could have done this type of post.

If you see anything wrong in the ''data'' itself, feel free to correct me, if I am wrong enough times it might even invalidate my results

#7 WildeHilde

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 08:57 PM

I think PVE trinkets were overpowered for a long time, starting with Renataki for mutilate rogues in S1. However in MoP the PvP trinkets look really strong. PvP power, resilience plus stats. The on use trinket has the primary stat plus on use again primary, which is probably a lot better than the heroic trinket with the added pvp power.

Humans may be the exception, but it's pretty close with pvp power, resilience and mastery as stats. Mostly depending on how strong mastery is for a spec. Rogues may benefit less than frost mages.

A completely different story are weapons however. I would go as far as saying, that weapons are the new trinkets. Without pvp power on them the higher ilvl will easily outweigh the resilience, except against certain setups, that rely on maximised defense (like 3DPS). Which means, that everything, what you say is correct, if you exchange weapons and trinkets for MoP. Maybe something, that adds huge amounts of mana regen could be the exception for healers.

#8 hypermode_4274975

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:00 AM

View PostZ4muZ, on 12 July 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

There... is... no... data...

When you're dealing with data, no matter the type, there's one common denominator to them all which is quantitative property. If you don't have values, if you don't have variables, you don't have data, and yes, not even "data".

I understand you were trying to impress the masses and what not, but referring to what you wrote even as pseudo-scientific is still quite the mockery :(

While I 100% agree that there is almost nothing scientific about the way the data (yes it is data, there is a difference between qualitative data and quantitative data, this is definitely a case of qualitative data, what your describing is quantitative data, which can then be split into continuus and discrete data) it still has its purpose in aranging the layout in a certain way that makes it accesible and comprehensible for the viewers.
Now back to if its ''data'' or not, if you were to use your definition of ''data'' most things that  the social sciences produce wouldn't be considered data
here is the webster definition of the word data http://www.merriam-w...dictionary/data I think ill rest my case for now (can we please go back on topic)

Edited by hypermode_4274975, 13 July 2012 - 12:02 AM.


#9 Pandamcpanda

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:34 AM

There were quiet a few more ridiculously overpowered trinkets running around or ones  you said were underrated, however this is really more of an opinion and if you were around to see what was silly and what was balanced. was a nice trip down memory lane thinking about all the stupid crap ive seen in arenas over the years lol.
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#10 hypermode_4274975

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 10:27 AM

View PostDU5KNOIR, on 13 July 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

a few things you say weren't used often were --- living ice crystals was popular because you can use it while silenced, for example; c.f. bauble of true blood, which was very prevalent. i also remember vileroze and lots of other people using scale of fates as a human mage. the twilight scales were used by casters who had heroic rotface for dfo but not heroic sindragosa --- iirc it was better than regular phylactery.

thank you, will add the scales of faith (according to my theorie they should have been there, but I hardly remember them myself) and the twilight scales

@ panda, while I try to be as complete as possible, if I would list every trinket that has ever been used in pvp I would have to list them all, my list is mostly about which ones were considered (by the community) to be overpowered

if you think I missed any significant ones, please feel free to point me to them

#11 Zunniyaki

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 11:47 AM

View PostZ4muZ, on 13 July 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

Yes, there's an abundant amount of "data" type, this is clear even to infants. No, as far as scientific work goes, you can't conduct research, or even pseudo-research, without methodologically using quantitative data as part of your research. It's fine if you want to observe monkeys, you still have to observe enough monkeys so you'll have enough data to be able to validly derive conclusions.

You, on the other hand, have literally, no data. You don't have quantitative data, you don't have categorical data, you don't have discrete data, you don't even have the said "ok this is green let me write this down for my thesis" pseudo-scientific soft data. What you do, have, is "ok so these trinkets proc damage/on-use stats/x/y/z kk this is OP" for your hypothesis, data, conclusion and summary.

Step 1) Come up with arbitrary categories for trinket mechanics which you deem in your own opinion to be OP
Step 2) List trinkets and indicate whether or not the trinkets mechanics fall under one of your arbitrary categories
Step 3) Conclude your assumption is valid because you've "successfully" matched some trinkets to your own made up arbitrary OP categories???

who cares if it's data or not, fact is PvE trinkets/and Heroic PvE gear in general are overpowered and get you a decently, arguably advantage in Arenas/RBGs etc.
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#12 Azorex

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:14 PM

i think the basic theory behind the topic is true...but im not too sure what you would like blizzard to do about stats on trinkets in the future...i mean, if theyre not good enough then the previous tier trinket gets used...and if theyre boring then people say "well thats a design flaw"

theyre going to try address pve gear in pvp situations in mop through the resi+pvp power changes, and i can see that the first season will probably work, but as weve seen throughout cata, when gear levels get higher, and resillience becomes less needed, as someone said above, weapons will probably the first out the window because of less resillience needed. Then it will most likely be a trinket that has a stat that is better for the player than an on use proc from the pvp trinket.

tl;dr, certain classes will always get away with using less pvp gear than others, and have in the past always used trinkets...but other than making everything a proc or on use "increases spell power by x amount" then youll never actually remove them from pvp situations.

i think the biggest thing you can ask for is that trinkets which allow someone to do more damage in 1 global based off a proc of damage is the way to remove inbalance....hello pre-nerf cunning/vial

#13 Z4muZ

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:33 PM

If you're going to edit and delete my posts, the least you can do is also remove my quotations from others' posts :(
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#14 Porkz

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 03:31 PM

Good read but you should of rated the items on a scale, rather than just using nothing or overpowered.

#15 Eowynnz

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 03:55 PM

Living Ice Crystal what batshit crazy. The heal while silenced was sick as fuck, and it got buffed by shamans passive talent that gave +18% healing I think. 4,5k heal while silenced was pretty sick.
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#16 hypermode_4274975

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 05:37 PM

View PostPorkz, on 13 July 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

Good read but you should of rated the items on a scale, rather than just using nothing or overpowered.

with only my feelings as a judge, it would be very hard to consequently add numbers to specific trinkets, also I have tried to put nothing-abit overpowered-very overpowered as a scale

#17 Shrouds

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 11:08 PM

Deathbringer's will was basically a legendary :P

#18 Hackattack3

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 05:34 AM

To the OP,

Thank you for taking the time to put this trinket list together, as others have said it has been a great trip down memory lane.  I would just like to add one point.  Most people in the pvp community seem to be very negative and focus on the negative aspects of pve trinkets and pve gear in general, i.e. "overpowered".  For all the overpowered cases, you can also find examples where classes were "balanced" by pve gear, and without that gear they were not viable.  Think of Tsunami deck when s10 hit, some healers (escapes my mind which had mana issues b/c I'm drunk now) had glaring mana/regen issues which were corrected by the trinket.  Sure there are cases of pve gear ruining balance "OP" and there also cases of pve gear correcting design flaws in classes.


PS Can anyone think of other examples of "balancing" pve gear?

#19 hypermode_4274975

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 09:57 AM

View PostHackattack3, on 14 July 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

To the OP,

Thank you for taking the time to put this trinket list together, as others have said it has been a great trip down memory lane.  I would just like to add one point.  Most people in the pvp community seem to be very negative and focus on the negative aspects of pve trinkets and pve gear in general, i.e. "overpowered".  For all the overpowered cases, you can also find examples where classes were "balanced" by pve gear, and without that gear they were not viable.  Think of Tsunami deck when s10 hit, some healers (escapes my mind which had mana issues b/c I'm drunk now) had glaring mana/regen issues which were corrected by the trinket.  Sure there are cases of pve gear ruining balance "OP" and there also cases of pve gear correcting design flaws in classes.


PS Can anyone think of other examples of "balancing" pve gear?

I agree with you on the tsunami cards influence, which is why I chose to leave all non-raiding pve gear out of the equation, because I believe that if everyone has acces to the same item it won't cause (that much) imbalance.
I guess another example of such a trinket would be GLG, blood was really bad in s5 (it was mostly melee dps back then, and there wasn't that much ARP to go around) the only thing that made blood remotely good was that if you had your runeweapon up it would copy GLG aswell, thus making for some very savvy burst

#20 ñåéé

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 02:28 PM

Game is unbelievably bad due to PvE focus and leaving PvP take it's course without taking any consideration to it.

The fact that 3's and 5's arena can be decided in a matter of seconds or even the fact that combo nowadays settles the outcome as well such as X combo > Y combo.

Truth be told even though TBC had it's bad points etc PvE actually almost didn't affect it at all. Sure Warglaives your going to say. Well they didn't decide the game at all due to many factors. Also the fact that it was more of a mana war game or CC chains it actually seemed a lot "skillful". This is absolutely a tragic state we are in that a Rank 1 is either decided by a combo or massive ammounts of trinkets/legendaries.

Fix the fucking state of the game. I don't see why Blizzard doesn't just fix both PvP and PvE accordingly. I mean it just saves you the problem of people "quitting" the game because the game is just unbalanced as fuck.

Peace out give MoP..hoping for something better




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