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Blue Posts PvP Class Balance in Mists of Pandaria

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#1 Vanguards

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 08:53 PM

PvP Class Balance in Mists of Pandaria

Blizzard has been taking input from beta players on Mists of Pandaria. Lets take a look at what's been discussed relating to PvP.

If you're interested in asking anything yourself, make sure to go to this post of "Beta Class Balance Analysis".

Official Blizzard Quote:

Mists of Pandaria PvP
2) What are your plans to encourage world PvP in Pandaria for especially high-end PvP'ers. Is it possible there could be PvP objectives that gave higher Conquest caps or other epic, important rewards?

No flying mounts until level 90 and an item that can dismount players, world bosses which factions will be competing against each other to kill, areas that players will want to gain control of such as the black market auction house and also us just wanting to have people back out in the world. Generally the most enjoyable world PvP is something that occurs spontaneously because you encounter others randomly, not because of stuff that the designers put in to create conflict.

tl;dr: World PvP is being encouraged with items that can dismount players, black market auction house and more.

Posted ImageWarrior
Warrior Beta Class Balance Analysis
The execute ability is currently doing a TON of damage (equivalent to around 2 slams) is this intended?
Yes. We want to restore that button to its former glory. We figure anyone in execute range in PvP is within a couple of globals of dying already.

tl;dr: Execute is hitting hard and it's intended.

Posted ImageRogue
Rogue Class Design

Rogues are in a pretty good place in Cataclysm in both PvE and PvP. We don't see a lot of huge glaring problems that need to be fixed. I realize there are several players out there asking for change just because they're getting bored of the same class or at the very least wanting to spice it up, and that is a totally valid way to feel. But you also have to consider the risk we'd take for all of the rogues out there who are totally happy with the way their class is playing now, thank you very much.

As an example, we changed paladins in Cataclysm because we thought they needed a resource mechanic to make their gameplay more interesting. Overall we're happy with the way that has played out, and it's even better in Mists, but it's also very easy to find "please remove Holy Power" posts regularly. While we disagree with those players, the fact remains that we made the class worse for them.

To use a second example, we are changing warlocks pretty extensively for Mists because we thought they had several fundamental problems. Is every warlock going to like those changes? Of course not. Are there going to lots of players who beg us to revert the changes? Absolutely.

(And this is all ignoring the risk that even changing a mechanic from an acknowledged bad design to a good design still risks frustrating or annoying many players just because they have to relearn something.)

We are trying to fix some of the annoying things rogues have had to deal with and we are trying to offer some options in talents and glyphs that can help spice up the gameplay for someone who has been loyally Sinister Striking for these eight years. But we also don't want to fix what isn't broken. We try really hard not to change classes for the sake of change. It's hard. But we try.

I'd go as far to say that most of the class team would probably agree (and I didn't poll them, so I may be sticking my neck out) that the rogue is the best designed class. And much of that design was in place before virtually any of us started working on classes, so we can't even really take credit for it. The rogue has the best resource system (energy), a strong kit, a good toolbox, and a clear role in PvP and PvE, yet it still has disadvantages to go along with the advantages and can't just do everything flawlessly all the time. It's a good design, again in our humble opinions, which is why you see so few changes to the class overall. But please don't over-read that as my stating that we won't fix bugs, add polish, balance numbers, undo bone-headed design flaws when the need arises, or yes, add a little bit of newness once in awhile just to keep things shiny.

tl;dr: Blizzard feels Rogues are in a pretty good spot both PvP and PvE wise in Cataclysm. At least "no crippling flaws."

I sincerely want to know by what measure and according to what data you conclude rogues are "fine" in PvP right now.

What I meant was that we didn't see any crippling design flaws in rogues that needed overhauling in Mists. Sub rogues probably are too good in Cataclysm PvP, or at least 3v3 Arenas, which many players use as synonymous with PvP. It's hard to tell if Assassination and Combat are really weak, or if Sub is so strong that any sensible rogue just plays Sub. It's also entirely possible that it isn't even Sub that is too powerful but just Prep and Shadowstep. In any case, my comment was addressed towards the group of players that believe rogues have this giant list of issues that must be addressed, and at another (perhaps overlapping) group of players that just want us to change things up for the rogue because they're getting bored. Sorry for any confusion.

tl;dr: A player asks how is there no problems with Rogue PvP. Blizzard replies saying they were talking mostly about "crippling flaws" and they seem to agree Rogues are too good in Cataclysm PvP.

What annoying things have we had to deal with that you're fixing?

I'll just use one example because in our opinion it's the biggest. Layered ramping mechanics were the single biggest weakness rogues have in Cataclysm (and have had for some time). Some ramping is desirable, but too much can really hurt target switching, prohibit fast burst damage, etc. (Don't take this to extremes -- we don't need posts from every class pointing out situations in which they can't go from 0 to 60 when target switching and therefore arguing how they need to be redesigned.)

In Mists, we want combo points to be the ramping mechanic. Deadly Poison doesn't need to be a ramping mechanic. Bandit's Guile doesn't need to be a ramping mechanic. We changed the way both of those work.

You may not have thought it was a problem, but we did, and we heard about it a lot from rogue players, so we fixed it.

tl;dr: Blizzard is fixing mechanics that makes it hard for Rogues to swap targets and deal damage.

Rogue Feedback
He hasn't answered anything about the Prep/Step issue.

Again, I feel like we have made plenty of responses to the topic. I think it's one of those deals where because some players don't like the answer, they say the topic has not been addressed.

For the record, as many players will tell you, Sub is nearly impossible to balance with both Preparation and Shadowstep. On the other hand, having two talents that are both so good that you want them both and have to think long and hard about which one to take and perhaps even swap back and forth from time to time is pretty much exactly what we are trying to deliver with the new talent system. Are rogues doomed in PvP without both? I doubt that. Is it hard to choose? Of course, and that's the point. If we conclude that it's just too cruel to ask rogues to choose between them, we'd likely just cut Prep from the game and perhaps lower a few cooldowns slightly. I really hope though that we aren't in a space where every cool talent has to become mandatory or deleted.

tl;dr: A player asks about how you can't have Preparation and Shadowstep. Blizzard replies saying the balancing of having both is nearly impossible.

Posted ImageDeath Knight

Death Knight Beta Class Balance Analysis

That sounds much better for sustained DPS comparisons of 2H and DW side-by-side, but will you address weapon twisting? I don't want carry around two 1Hs and need to have "/cast [equipped:one-handed] Frost Strike; /equip 1Hs" and "/cast [equipped:two-handed] Obliterate; /equip 2H". As others have mentioned the respective +50% damage bonuses are far too significant and ought to be spread across other abilities, which will also rein PVP burst in.

Frost DKs twisting weapons like that is something that’s on our list of things to fix before release.

tl;dr: Frost Death Knights twisting weapons before release is possible.

Posted ImageHunter

Hunter Class Design

Hunters and Expertise

Shots that cost focus should give a partial refund when they miss. If that isn't happening, we'll fix it.

We don't think Steady and Cobra Shot need to provide resources even when they miss. We're not going for a design where hunters can be certain to always have maximum resource income in PvP. As long as they have enough focus, they'll be fine. If we see evidence that hunters are focus-starved, we'll adjust accordingly, but we haven't seen that so far. There hasn't been a ton of PvP testing on beta yet. There has been a lot of speculation, and while that is still valuable feedback, it is understandably less valuable.

If Shred and Backstab were so reliable in PvP, I don't think there would be such a storied history of druids and rogues asking to buff alternatives to the positional requirements or just removing the positional requirements for PvP. In other words, I think "melee can nearly always attack from behind in PvP" is overstated.

If hunters get close to hit and expertise caps, they should do fine even against Agi users with high dodge chances. They won't do fine against a rogue that pops Evasion, but Evasion is intended as a survivability cooldown. Different classes are different and cooldowns and durations all vary, but I don't know that rogues have a great counter for Deterrence either.

The loss of minimum range is a huge hunter PvP buff. I don't think we've seen the full ramifications of it yet.

tl;dr: Shots that cost focus will be partially refunded on misses. Hunters may need expertise in Mists of Pandaria. Blizzard feels the lost of minimum range is a gigantic PvP buff.

I feel like Mists of Pandaria is going to be positive for PvP players. I know many people don't feel the same way, but I've found the overall responses from Blizzard to be heading in the right direction. The previous PvP post by Blizzard was fabulous as well. They seem to acknowledge certain problems such as PvE gear in PvP, and Rogues being too strong in Cataclysm.

How do you guys feel about Mists of Pandaria?

Rzn also gave me some quality clips to work on. Please check it out, and subscribe to WoWSpotlights for more videos!

Who would you like to see a video from next?

#2 Minpojke

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 08:59 PM

first xoxoxoxoxoxo xxxx

#3 Pawzz

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 09:02 PM

View PostMinpojke, on 30 June 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

first xoxoxoxoxoxo xxxx
I hate you so much

#4 iProphecy

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 09:25 PM

Seems legit :duckers:

#5 Bodoma

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 10:08 PM

Dodging arrows...*grumbles under breath*

View PostYsmerion, on 04 April 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

"Queue" is actually the longest word in English language that can be said with only word letter, "q".

#6 Minpojke

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 10:13 PM

View PostPawzz, on 30 June 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

I hate you so much


#7 jonadefty_3724427

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 12:24 AM

View PostMinpojke, on 30 June 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

first xoxoxoxoxoxo xxxx

Im quite curious how often you actually f5 AJ waiting to pounce on a new topic? :D

#8 Orpheus66

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 12:48 AM

I would like to know how servers with extreme player difference will cope with wpvp and out door bosses? For example Illidan, it is my understanding that for every alliance player there is like 20-30Horde players. How would wpvp and out door bosses work on those servers???

Honestly tho if you want wpvp i do believe GW2 will be your best option. I also do believe GW2 tournaments will be way better then arena seasons.

So to sum up, I will be playing BW2  :)

#9 Udderly

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 04:44 AM

Nice vid - really cool seeing someone talk about someone elses performance, rather than hearing them explain it for themselves - gives a different perspective. Nice job van

#10 averagepriestz

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 05:58 AM

Minpojke you're litterally the largest fucking nerdballer out there. I feel sorry for you.

#11 breuerx

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 03:55 PM

Nice video. Can't belive your RLS got farmed by our FLS though ;)
Hoz fails with his lock.

#12 nr1nobody

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 04:35 PM

View PostBreuerx, on 01 July 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

Nice video. Can't belive your RLS got farmed by our FLS though ;)
That has alot to do with this, nice comment.

#13 Enyalius

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 02:33 AM

Would you for the love of whoever you believe in (in my case myself) stop posting something about one of your pvp vids or some random shit at the end or in every single topic / thread you make? I mean, no offense, but it is really random putting a "Rzn also gave me some quality clips to work on. Please check it out, and subscribe to WoWSpotlights for more videos!" at the end of a blue post about pvp in MoP. THANK YOU





#14 iProphecy

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 04:11 AM

was very high.

#15 WildeHilde

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 07:16 AM

Actually I like these arena videos and this time only one video was with Vanguards. I would like to see something from Minpojke next time.

#16 Bodoma

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 07:31 AM

View Postaveragepriestz, on 01 July 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

Minpojke you're litterally the largest fucking nerdballer out there. I feel sorry for you.

jk 5 seasons glad.

View PostEnyalius, on 02 July 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

Would you for the love of whoever you believe in (in my case myself) stop posting something about one of your pvp vids or some random shit at the end or in every single topic / thread you make? I mean, no offense, but it is really random putting a "Rzn also gave me some quality clips to work on. Please check it out, and subscribe to WoWSpotlights for more videos!" at the end of a blue post about pvp in MoP. THANK YOU

did you ever play a DK on Bladefist EU?

View PostYsmerion, on 04 April 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

"Queue" is actually the longest word in English language that can be said with only word letter, "q".

#17 Pootius_6592477

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 06:05 AM

View PostUpsersepugs, on 13 July 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

Городская больница закрылась для посетителей. Свет в бывшем гимнастическом зале выключили. Пьер Клушар спал глубоким сном и не видел склонившегося над ним человека. Игла похищенного у медсестры шприца блеснула в темноте и погрузилась в вену чуть выше запястья Клушара. Шприц был наполнен тридцатью кубиками моющего средства, взятого с тележки уборщицы. Сильный палец нажал на плунжер, вытолкнув синеватую жидкость в старческую вену.  Пожилой человек вдруг поднялся и куда-то побежал, видимо, вызвать «скорую». Танкадо явно терял последние силы, но по-прежнему совал кольцо прямо в лицо тучному господину. Тот протянул руку, взял Танкадо за запястье, поддерживая остававшуюся на весу руку умирающего. Танкадо посмотрел вверх, на свои пальцы, на кольцо, а затем, умоляюще, — на тучного господина. Это была предсмертная мольба. Энсей Танкадо незаметно кивнул, словно говоря: да.   
— Что-то затевается, — заявила Мидж. — И я намерена узнать, что именно.  — Я не такой дурак, как вы думаете, — бросил Хейл. — Я воспользуюсь вашим лифтом. Сьюзан пойдет со мной. А вы останетесь!   
Бринкерхофф проследовал за Мидж в ее кабинет. Она села и начала, подобно пианисту-виртуозу, перебирать клавиши «Большого Брата».   
Но было уже поздно. Дэвид положил трубку. Она долго лежала без сна, ожидая его звонка. Но телефон молчал.  
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Клушар едва заметно кивнул:   
— Дэвид в Испании? — Она не могла поверить услышанному. — Вы отправили его в Испанию? — В ее голосе послышались сердитые нотки. — Зачем?   

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- Задействованная ею программа была написана на языке программирования Лимбо, который не был его специальностью. Но ему хватило одного взгляда, чтобы понять: никакая это не диагностика. Хейл мог понять смысл лишь двух слов. Но этого было достаточно.   
- Но Стратмор ее не слышал. Его жизнь окончена. Тридцать лет отдал он служению своей стране. Этот день должен был стать днем его славы, его piece de resistance, итогом всей его жизни — днем открытия «черного хода» во всемирный стандарт криптографии. А вместо этого он заразил вирусом главный банк данных Агентства национальной безопасности. И этот вирус уже невозможно остановить — разве что вырубить электроэнергию и тем самым стереть миллиарды бит ценнейшей информации. Спасти ситуацию может только кольцо, и если Дэвид до сих пор его не нашел…   

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Exactly what I was thinking :duckers:

Edited by Pootius_6592477, 13 July 2012 - 06:05 AM.

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