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diziet trying to explain the complexities of sponsorship and intellectual theft

how fast will this get banned

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#21 e130478

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:13 AM

A claim to "intellectual theft" is laughable. In order for that to be valid, another party would have to experience gain through a proprietary method on the basis of a borrowed idea or concept. Since these tournaments generate "revenue" only insofar as they gain advertising royalties through an outside hosting agency, this isn't even remotely applicable. You will clearly read this contractual language if you were to sign up with any of these popular hosting sites.

Just the same, a channel on youtube could not claim exclusive right to any particular idea or concept because the royalties experienced as a result of that idea or concept are not part of any end-user transaction. The gains experienced merely result from a contract between the user and youtube, which precisely stem from view count, a metric that ignores actual viewing content.

Now, if someone were to misrepresent themselves as "Nao" with the intention of benefiting from it, then it might be a different story. Fair Use Laws strictly prohibit the digital misrepresentation of copyrighted content. But then that begs an additional questions: Is Nao even officially patented?

#22 Epion

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:27 AM

Hope in humanity restored after seeing that people still actually can put out an intelligent constructive discussion on the internet!
However, it's low to actually make your private conversations public not letting the opposite side know.

#23 Belligerent

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:35 AM

mlg and ipl exist. there can be more than one event.

#24 Yes

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:38 AM

I'd just like to point out that the Tournament UI, like any WoW addon, is suppose to be freely available to anyone. It's a bit more complicated than that because you have to abide by Blizzard's ToU and ELUA, but the gist of it is here:

Official Blizzard Quote:

1) Add-ons must be free of charge.
All add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create "premium" versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on.

2) Add-on code must be completely visible.
The programming code of an add-on must in no way be hidden or obfuscated, and must be freely accessible to and viewable by the general public.


7) Add-ons must abide by World of Warcraft ToU and EULA.
All add-ons must follow the World of Warcraft Terms of Use and the World of Warcraft End User License Agreement.

I've written a portion of the code in the current tournament UI, fixed some bugs and added some minor features. The UI itself is originally based on oUF, written by Trond A Ekseth, and the license file in it and the original oUF follows is the MIT License. It's not something that needs specific permission to be used, however we do nevertheless have written permission from the pg tournament organizers to use it.

Edit: Yay! Never thought I'd get to talk about the MIT License on AJ!

#25 zephah

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:42 AM

Man, this is a huge mess.

Your entire post is out of line, and frankly is littered with things that you simply either don't understand, or are assuming there is some cynical reason behind it.

Curse is a business. There, I just answered 65% of your questions.

"even if thats not the reason, why the hell isnt it public why they dropped sponsorship?"

This is the only part that really bugged me and made me feel like needed to be addressed (that wasn't already brought to your attention, kudos random shamans and Tosan, kudos to you)

It's rarely made public, if ever, in anything.

Sponsors are dropped all the time, and this situation is no different than Diziet had explained to you.

There is also a drastic misunderstanding by this community about how much money NAO could possibly be taking in. I think some people just see "Well it's this amount for x amount of viewers, so it's all profit! Look at all this monenneyyyyy" Wrong.

#26 droolingmoron

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:45 AM

what a waste of time reading this far-fetched and highly uninteresting post. i hoped for drama but all i got was verbal diarrhoea.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.


#27 Worldtree

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:45 AM

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Talbadar - Azael - Cdewz

Casters: Isaac "Azael" Cummings-Bentley.

" and now I spell lock the healer insta while talb randomly fears randomly. "

#28 Baulterexlol

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:01 AM

View PostDuckers, on 09 May 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

The rare hologram shiny "Make a WoW tournament in the US" card.


View PostTosan, on 09 May 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

It's an online tournament.....it's not like they're a technology company working on secret projects and Curse came and stole their blueprints to a new Iron Man suit .........

What "cards" are there to see?

I mean I'm not sure why it has to be said more than once, or even once for that matter, but NAO did not invent tournaments.....they're not using "NAO's cards".

I mean let's get real here,  all these tournament organizers are really just ripping off the Romans who built the Collisium and started real gladiator tournaments for bad ass mofos.

The "cards" = how the tournament works, the 'behind the scenes,' the communication, the format, the business dealings, etc.

I mean let's get real here, would you want a million dollar company that once supported you, that has access to infinitely more money than you, that has more workers than you, etc leaving you and starting their own same thing? Maybe you like getting royally screwed over, dunno. Not saying that a successful company shouldn't move into a market - congrats on your success Curse. However, I am saying that you should give credit where credit is due; not just buy out the whole thing.

Oh, and you guys talking about how the world works - you're right. This world is very screwed up. All this is is another case of the big bully beating up on the little guy.

Edited by Baulterexlol, 09 May 2012 - 10:11 AM.

#29 Naatzors

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:12 AM

Im not sure how you can even make a big issue of those "cards" there's tons of LoL, SC2, Dota 2, CoD and so on tournies they can ask how a tournament is run. There is no such thing as "looking into their cards" when NAO didn't have an original idea behind this (im sorry, they don't. All they had is the specator mod, wich as diziet has pointed out is public and available to everyone) apart from that, every tournament in any Esport is run in roughly the same way.

Why are you so upset a sponsor leaves a team, look at it from curse side. Do you think they shouldn't be allowed to make an online tournament in a game that only has a "living" Esport scene because they decided to sponsor NAO in the first place? Curse is in no way screwing NAO over. If they indeed have a succesful format they should have no trouble finding a new sponsor.
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#30 Itsnel

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:29 AM

*careface* rofl

#31 Niezeqt

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:44 AM

bunch of downers as usual whining trying to ruin tournaments
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#32 Vapourizer

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:53 AM

Oh god, Aj should have drama in the middle of the name.
Who fucking cares, more tourny is a good thing.
Stop this bitching, Nao did not "create" wow tourny.
Also it's considered Intellectual theft if they patented the tourny, which they obviously didn't(not like you can patent wow tourny?).
Why can't we all just be happy that there is another tournament happening.
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#33 mukuld50

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:57 AM

View Posthypermode_4274975, on 09 May 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

6. You claim curse ''randomly invited a bunch of teams'' which is exactly what NAO did in the start, it was a tournament-host made decision and I agree with this one. I know all teams on that list, except for the last one listed, because they performed in a NAO tournament.

The thing that bothered me initially, was NOT the fact that they pre-picked teams, but more the fact that Vanguards (who is playing in the tournament with his cleave that has been doing extremely well on TR) approached and picked all of the teams on the roster, while being in it himself.  Pair that up with the fact that there are 6 Shaman healers and 0 Paladin healers, I was not too amused.  Seems like a very huge conflict of interest to me.  While many people on the NAO staff desperately want to participate in NAO, we have strict rules of not allowing that, for obvious reasons.

But then I was told by AJ tournament organizers that they did approach two Holy Paladin teams as well, that could unfortunately not commit to the tournament.  I will take their word for it.

I would be interested to know if this tournament is allowing multi-comping or not, to see some of the shaman healers switch out to paladin for Vanguard's team (looking mostly at the KFC and possibly Team EG's shadowplay with a paladin healer).

Regarding all of the other stuff, I could go on and on, pages and pages, about my feelings, what I felt went wrong, why it went wrong, why NAO was wrong, why Curse was wrong, and why everything is wrong, but in the end, it does not matter.  Like multiple people have pointed, multiple tournaments can only be good, as long as they are blatantly not trying to override the other (by scheduling on the same time slots etc., which is not the case here).

Edited by Starcookie, 09 May 2012 - 11:36 AM.
Be a good little Mugemsz, not a naughty one.

#34 saffie

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 12:36 PM

There are two things that need to be mentioned in this case:

1) You don't really make money out of stream revenues as much as you think, most of the tournements end up giving the revenue to the casters. Go check up on any streaming websites and see what you would get for streaming to that many people for that much hour. Or Pm me here and I will tell you. The way they could make money is basically plugging their websites, getting more attention on other stuff that they could make money with. Its good publicity by curse to make their own tournement.

2) NAO doesn't own WoW tournements, and they certainly didn't come up with the idea nor the UI, most people here know that prestige gaming paid their coders and worked hard to make the UI and those of us they shared the file with were told not to give it to anyone unless you've got a permission to do so, if they let anyone use it then thats the end of that arguement. By OP's logic its intellectual theft that anyone else is doing a WoW tournement in US, that is completely unreasonable, there are few tournements being made in Europe as well and no one is being possessive about it saying "yeah but we did it first". No, prestige gaming did it first and were kind enough to share their idea and software with you. Doesn't matter if its US, Europe or Korea good thing about internet is that we are all connected, internet is a continent itself, its not like old times, we are all in contact with each other and everyone who ever reads AJ knew that Prestige Gaming started these tournements. This is even less relevent now since Europeans are playing in US tournements and Us players are playing in European tournements.

I'm sure people who watch the tournements are just glad that there is now competition and both tournements will have to up their game and try to give a better experience than the other resulting in better tournements for us all.

Edited by saffie, 09 May 2012 - 12:40 PM.

#35 Baulterexlol

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 12:39 PM

View Posthypermode_4274975, on 09 May 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

Alright, after having read this full thread & something off the mugems thread, while knowing abit about intellectual property I have this to say:

1. It is a perfectly normal habit for companys to look for bussiness avenues that can make them money, if they see a competitor is doing well with a certain non-trademarked service, they will immitate it and try to improve it, that is the most basic foundation of capitalism
2. I have no idea what was in the nao-curse sponsorship agreement, so I (and afaik nobody but the people directly involved) can tell if any promises/contracts were broken. If the contract was based on a tournament to tournament basis (which seems to me the most logical contract), it was curses fair right to not extend the contract, they didn't have any obligations (maybe besides moral ones) to continue the contract. If the contract was a yearly contract & they decided to disband it because muggems alledgedly was involved in arena carries (like, to be fair, most of the people on this site) it was a low blow, but still legal as far as I can see (they don't want to be associated with people willfully breaking contracts with blizzard).
The idea behind a sponsorship usually is trading money for namerecognisciion. In this case, its slightly more complex because curse provided, besides money, also infrastructure, platforms to announce the tournaments (AJ).

3. NAO has no intellectual property WHATSOEVER over holding tournaments, they have taken over the framework used by the russians (prestige-gaming) and they were licenced to do so (judging from comments on the stream & muggems words earlier in this thread).

4. The only party with any intellectual property claims is prestige gaming. They developped the tournament UI (which is a copywritable idea, especially since it was developped by them and non-public) so if the AJ tournament (and thus curse) were to use that user interface, they would be liable for copyright claims (unless prestige-gaming licenses them, just as they have licensed NAO).

5. If you look at this from the ''wow as e-sport'' pov, this tournament is nothing but good, it is bringing wow as an e-sport back to a proffesional (meaning non-player hosted, no matter how good those players did) level. Which means more resources will be spend on it and curse has more places to advertise, which in turn means bigger viewercounts, more money involved & bigger prices for the players.

6. You claim curse ''randomly invited a bunch of teams'' which is exactly what NAO did in the start, it was a tournament-host made decision and I agree with this one. I know all teams on that list, except for the last one listed, because they performed in a NAO tournament.

7. For NAO, it is not sure if this tournament is going to be bad, it might even be good because right now, NAO is a pretty niche organisation with a pretty limited & niche playerbase. Curse has the potential (trough mmo-champion) to interest a whole bunch of new people in the tournament scene, which might then end up on NAO's stream aswell.

8. Your main motives for making this post seem to me mostly because you wern't invited to the AJ tournament, but thats just ad hominem from me

I think I have said everything I have to say here, please feel free to point out any factual errors made by me while writhing this

Well written, man. Even if you don't agree with me :)

#36 Cozenerlol

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 03:58 PM

I found it odd when the AJ Tournament-thingy went up on the home page, now there are 3 WoW tournaments about to go on? (Including the Yaspresent, which makes sense as it's EU, I guess.)

But all with pretty much the same people. I wouldn't mind all these tournaments if it wasn't like, the same teams playing in every one.

While AJ isn't "stealing" from the NAO by any means, it's still just a kind of rude thing to do.

Edited by Cozenerlol, 09 May 2012 - 03:58 PM.

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#37 Øbe

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 03:58 PM

Donald mate here's hoping you're aware you've just made a complete fool out of yourself.

Kudos to NAO, Curse, etc. Make/host tournaments, as a player I care not for the rest of the corporate bullshit.

#38 Ctuhlu

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 05:13 PM

what a colossally stupid thread

Fourreur said:

we have to switch to them making the decision to pop reck or not to pop reck

#39 FTRouslan

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 05:23 PM

Sounds like the OP is trying to be the next Reedwise, but is failing spectaculary in the attempt.

At least it spawned some interesting dicussion that I've even learned from regarding some legal concepts.
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View PostNameswapro, on 18 November 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:

Look at me. I can start and stop wars, at will. I can save or destroy the world. I can do anything I fucking want. Just now, I pissed near my toilet bowl because I fucking can.

#40 Falla

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 05:40 PM

This argument reminds me Judge Judy you guys would sue each other for anything

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