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#1 greenbeenmachine

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:03 PM

this guy makes some interesting points that i really don't want to agree with but deep down in the pit of my soul i feel he may be right. however i also realize that its very hard and probably borderline ignorant to judge skill cap in a game this early.

anyway tell me what you think (NOTE I DID NOT WRITE THIS):

This has become a rather large topic and as such i feel i deserve to format my post in such a way that depicts a better point of discussion rather then some jumbled rantings of an angry disappointed nerd that was the former post.

Some of you are going to disagree, i personally am not angered by this you enjoy what you do. Im speaking from a person who has always been in the top 1 or less percent of every game he has played so its in every other aspect of life i would be considered an “expert opinion” but its an opinion not a fact so rather then being upset with what i say i implore you to constructively deconstruct what im saying if you are capable.

=WHAT IS SKILL AND WHY DOES THIS GAME LACK HARD SKILL=

skill is many dif things.

- it is LoS
- it is teamwork
- it is decisionmaking
- it is mechanic usage
- it is positioning
- it is reaction

there are im sure many many dif things one can call “skill” but these are the ones that pop into my mind and they make up the main aspects of skill in most MMORPG. here is the problem with this game as it stands. some of these “skills” are harder then others. for example….

reaction—— is more of a coordination type skill, this is the hardest skill to have in a game and often rewards people the most. ever been in gym class? did you suck at dodgeball? bet the guys on the sports teams didnt. it sucks but thats the hand life deals you and no work is going to make you naturally coordinated. reaction is something many of you who played games at a high level that kept you from being the best or made you the best. in WOW counterspelling a spell under 1 second was hard for many and they all complained. myself and my teamates had no problems with this at all, it was something that put a gap between us, and everyone else. the hard fact of this type of skill is that not everyone can have it.

go to http://www.humanbenc...ntime/index.php and see how fast you are? now go to a more complex version of this game because thats the HARDEST part of MMORPG, reacting fast while focusing on other things. my first try i just got .247 ms, is this good? prob decent, can i do better or worse who knows im sitting there waiting for it im sure it will be slower if im doing other things. some of you might get very slow reaction times. for you to be good in a game that has you be fast like this, you would have to be a dif person and this bothers you. as a casual game you feel like you should be able to do everything all the good players do. your wrong and you are not entitled to anything.

if we were to make spells more obvious and faster/more important, the the dodge mechanic would be more clutch. it would reward you for a fast reaction time and punish people who blindly just use spells whenever they feel like. i want to see good players dodge a guy he isnt even fightings, clutch power move because out of the corner of his eye he saw him winding up. he cant do this with spell animations being so distracting and poorly done. sure you can maybe do this with someone in a 1v1 but this is a 5v5 game. to make it super skilled everything should be able to be reacted to. if i cast a spell i should be able to avoid it/stop it/reduce it/counter it with a high reaction time and proper spell management. anything short of this is just BGs in wow. moving on

teamwork——- is a common skill. this skill is often in these games in the form of to lead or be lead. your ability to not tunnel vision and focus on a greater goal helps put you ahead of the other team but without exciting gameplay mechanics teamwork can just simply be stacking bricks. you need teamwork to be a big deal because the stuff the team is doing together is HARD TO DO TOGETHER. in this game its not hard to work together. the cc chains are so small and the spells are so clunky that clutch chains of teamwork will most likely not be possible to anything other then “sticking together” “using spells together”

me using an AOE shield to stop missiles is not “skill” thats just recognizing you are being shot and using a spell. a necromancer pulling a person out of position is not in any way complex and is rather boring. this is the extent of teamwork in this game

positioning —-—— another steadfast skill in mmorpgs. it doesnt consist of anything in this game strategically important. allocating people to a location isnt hard and goals are so simple that this task becomes mundane and boring. short of a kid leeroy jenkins’ing the other team in a direct 5v5 confrontation, i doubt seriously there will be implications strategic or otherwise regarding this aspect.

decisionmaking————- often a key point in the rpg pvp title. this means using the spells at the right time and knowing when you are weak or strong. this governs how you play the game. the problem with gw2 decisionmaking is that your spells are so unimportant and basic that they have no major implications. a warrior who doesnt get hit during his counterattack is fine. a person who hits his counterattack just takes a bit of damage. there normally should be a momentum swing heavily in the warriors favor after hitting an ability that requires YOU to fail but not in this game. the closest thing you come to with decisonmaking in this game is “do i attack or go attack someone else” once you decide to attack this person the two of you just dps each other down till one dies or runs. there are no important abilitys like “counterspell” that are keeping your enemy from going full power, there are no massive stuns that are forcing you to keep your distance from that thief. if he stuns you its for 1second your fine and if the mage stuns you its also for 1second your fine. there is no MAJOR cooldowns that govern how a fight goes down. you are presented with the least complex form of combat I HAVE EVER SEEN. here is how a fight goes down

“i attack you with 1-5 maybe i wep swap for a knockback or blind so a spell misses i dont need to aim these spells and me using these spells are not opening myself up to any powerhouse combos later on, he does the same and we both lose HP and heal HP because we both have heals”

as any class at the moment you are unable to avoid taking damage while dealing it, a key part about decisionmaking in MMORPG is that by choosing the right spell at the right time you can “outplay your enemy” currently you have spells that are so weak in CC strength that the most i can “chain” together keeps a person off me for at most 3 seconds. this is nothing in the grand scheme of things and this exchange just simply leads to him returning the favor to me. i cant “vanish his fear” or counterspell his frost school to maintain my uptime, i just mash buttons in a non idiotic order.
there must be severe consequences for misuse of cooldowns but there currently does not seem to be any.

==#1 RULE OF SKILLED RPG PVP ==

- for every action in a game there must be a counter action able to….
stop
weaken
slow down
that action to a point where it was not effective on the overall standing of the game and puts you at an advantage. furthermore this transaction of spells must not be arbitrary and have meaning to an overall goal of eventually killing this team/person as well as require in depth understanding an reaction time to accomplish. one must not simply be able to “decide to stop the other person” one must EARN the right to stop the other person via outplaying them.

===ESPORTS APPEAL==

(or why lack of important large happenings hurts this game)
lets talk about how this game cannot be an esport. when you watch a game unless you play the game there must be some features that are obvious to you for you to understand it. in sports scoring is obvious, in starcraft armys dieing is obvious, in Moba games and wow it was NOT obvious. while LoL gets a HUGE viewerbase its from the game, i have not met many people who can watch LoL and understand and enjoy whats going on and furthermore i know many top players hate watching the game but its a valid point, to be an esport you must have watchability.

aspects of watchability————————————-
in a real sport you have big moments. these big moments are the things you talk about the next day at work, at the bar after the game, at your moms dinner the next night because you havent got a real job yet and they dont even like sports why are you talking to them about this go get a real job and move out already.

“OOOO MAN DID YOU SEE THAT PASS” “YE DAWG DAT WAS OFF THE HOOK FIDY YARD PASS FOR THE TD SON HOLLA” – i dont know how kids talk these days

in starcraft its something like “OOOOO MAN DID YOU SEE THAT MOTHERSHIP VORTEX?!? IT WAS THE SICKEST COMEBACK EVER, PROTOSS IS SO OP TOLOLOLOL”

this is hype, this is showcasing a game. where is that here. where is the spell that makes you say “OOOOOOMG DID THEY JUST DO THAT?!?”
it doesnt exist. this game cannot be an esport when there are no big moments, the spells are too simple and non dominating to make large impacts on the game. sure the mesmer shield is large and helps with projectiles, but its rather hard to see and its not “exciting” it just “is”

aspects of watching and understanding————————
now lets talk about understanding. in sports you have a BALL. a FOCAL point if you will. its very easy for me to go to watch ANY sport and with little knowledge of the sport understanding the ball is what you need to score and appreciate the physical skill or moves that the players do. when the spells in this game are so quick and lackluster/not robust enough, i cant appreciate whats going on. something that noticeable CC did in wow was it was just that, it was NOTICEABLE.

“AHHH THAT GUYS A SHEEP HE PROB ISNT DOING WELL AS A SHEEP NICE!”

“AW THAT GUYS DOWN ON THE GROUND NOT MOVING WHILE THAT OTHER GUY IS STABING HIM HE ISNT FIGHTING BACK SOMETHING MUST BE WRONG!”

these are examples of why cc are required to even consider making the game watchable. they are not just tools of skill, they are ease of access for non players of the game to get excited. if someone catches on fire because of a fire spell, gets frozen by an ice spell, these are things you notice, they dont exist and thus watching it is suffering.
im also aware this is very poorly written because its more of a rant of pent up anger from having these people hype this games esports aspect only to reveal a terrible system

===DILUTING WHAT MATTERS HURTS EXCITEMENT=

(the center focal point death or ball aspect of a sport and why its important)
This comes down to one thing. Death. In an MMORPG the only thing that can make you feel excitement is someone dieing. One of the problems with BG gaming is that when someone dies, they are not out of the game but just momentarily weakening his teams standing. Sure this is fine from a game standpoint (if the game still allows for the death to be capitalized on) but as a spectator that leaves me with the only exciting aspect of the game being a “flag was captured” or a PvE mob was killed. These things are boring. I cannot relate to a flag or a giant mob. I can however appreciate the value of life in a game and understand that death is a bad thing. Its not that bad in this game.

FURTHERMORE. The deaths in this game are not even deaths, they are KNOCK DOWNS. talk about lack of punishment for what should be the ultimate win. You have to go do a SUPER slow animation to FINISH them. I just killed him now i have to risk death to ACTUALLY kill him.
How many of you enjoy a guy who gets last stand with a machine gun in CoD. Yeh exactly…. Now how many would like that last stand to happen EVERY TIME.

You made deaths not matter THAT much on top of deaths already not mattering that much since its a BG

==GENERAL PROBLEMS I HAVE WITH THE GAME SO FAR==

- nothing is important, spells are rather weak and most of the spells are glorified damage dealing spells with secondary cc effects taged on. they often are just the same spell with a dif name
- bg style gaming never stressed the importance of real real hardcore talent and is far less punishing then a format where you get one death. you must have a hardcore mode for hardcore players and esports
- spell animations are not clear enough. they are “skinny”. when i say skinny they are too short or too scattered. when i cast a lightning ball i dont need the entire screen to be lightning and it doesnt need to be a jumble of lines going everywhere
- keybinds are terrible. fix them. the spell system with the current keybinds are clunky and lack fluidity. remove cooldowns of swapping between dif wep spells so we can be more “clutch”
- no modifiers. this is similar to keybinds only rather then talking about how they are set up im talking about just allowing us to use modifiers
- lack of individual impressive play. the spells are boring and you lack control. classes are too slow and without cc you are unable to be a massive presence on the field when fighting someone of equal skill. your cc spells last so little time you are unable to get anything done in between the time it takes for the cc to wear off other then just keep attacking the same target.
- lack of multitask ability. this goes a bit about the problem above in a dif set of detail. your effect on the overall game is tiny. for an MMORPG where you should have upwards of 20 active pvp spells you cannot handle more then one person
in wow a mage can frost nova one melee and sheep another while dpsing a third. the other team can dispell those novas/cc’s and heal the person the mage is attacking
this is skilled back and forth.
- clunky spells and lack of fluidity. the game is not crisp. yes its beta but lets be honest this combat will not drastically change
- cast times are too long. shorter cast times = more things done, more things done = slightly higher skillcap. we need everything to add up to a massive skill dif

=CASUAL GAMERS VS HARDCORE GAMERS===

we have 2 types of pvp/2 types of gamers. casual and hardcore.
a game will generate more players if it is casual.
hardcore gamers people like me? im SUCH a small portion of the game. Gw2 could tell people like me to go eat a bag of d’s and they will make a bunch of money even if all of us went and grabbed another friend who currently plays the game and made them quit.
it wouldnt phase them in the slightest

for people like me, i can only enjoy things that have a huge learning curve. the thrill of being impressed by someone who is already at the top of the game and then learning myself as i try to become as good if not better then them. casual gamers get frustrated before this point in time and generally play games to escape stress and thus quit this aspect of the game (some quit because they are bitter they were bad).

most people think this is stressful. they would rather enter a game, be realtively good at it, succeed on some level and then walk away with a feeling of self satisfaction/enjoyment that they just did good even if they are not good WHATSOEVER. furthermore they do not care. they just want to laugh and have a good time, competition is the last thing they are thinking about
Bgs are for casual gamers. casual gamers are not gamers who put less time into games. casual gamers are gamers who are generally lower on the skill totem poll. the more casual a gamer is the easier he wants the game to be. the more casual a game is the less stressful it is
the problem is that games can create environments for casual and hardcore gamers but they generally up untill now have not done so. im glad you guys enjoy the BG style of Gw2 really i do. I want to see a SUPER hardcore version of this that you all will hate. its FINE we dont like each others chosen aspects of the game, that doesnt mean we cannot coexist in dif formats

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

original thread: here

#2 Mity

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:15 PM

holy shit this structure hurts my eyes
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#3 greenbeenmachine

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:39 PM

View PostMity, on 29 April 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

holy shit this structure hurts my eyes

sorry i just edited it hopefully its a bit less eye straining

#4 Mity

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:56 PM

seems like he is arguing that no real skill/you can't do skillful moves with everyone's skillset?

at least that is what i gathered
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#5 ßlackjack1296682189

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:09 AM

there are a lot skillfull things you can do, i spammed clones as mesmer, stealthed and blinked after to take a base while enemies didn´t see me until the base got capped (enemeis were on the way to another base)

while you are talking aout hard skill, just watch mesmer clones, when they stop casting and walk to you dodge roll through them to avoid 6k damage from mind wrack

haven´t played other classes that much, but i am sure there is a lot of stuff to find out

Edited by ßlackjack1296682189, 30 April 2012 - 12:12 AM.


#6 Lillpappz

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 02:35 AM

Just the fact that the game doesnt have any heatseeking missiles and you can survive 5 people with good kiting makes it more skillful than WoW for example.

#7 WildeHilde

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:08 AM

While I love many aspects of the game the format (5v5 Arathi basically) annoys me. I would prefer team death match arenas.

#8 Hyuru

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:12 AM

can we get a tldr please

Edited by Hyuru, 30 April 2012 - 08:13 AM.


#9 Mity

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:18 AM

View PostHyuru, on 30 April 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

can we get a tldr please

i got u bro

tldr: he thinks the game is bad because given the skillset of the characters there is no way to display skill/skillful moves (compares it to vanishing death coil etc)

the game cannot become and e-sport because of bad 'watchability' from the spamming of one skill etc

your typical changes needed (modifiers, duel etc)
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#10 Hyuru

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:31 AM

View PostMity, on 30 April 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

i got u bro

tldr: he thinks the game is bad because given the skillset of the characters there is no way to display skill/skillful moves (compares it to vanishing death coil etc)

the game cannot become and e-sport because of bad 'watchability' from the spamming of one skill etc

your typical changes needed (modifiers, duel etc)
there are TONS of evades, rangers for example got a backdash ability, so you CAN infact "vanish the deathcoil" by for example backdash the aoe stun or whatever(?)

#11 Hyuru

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:32 AM

View Postzjoom, on 30 April 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

http://i.imgur.com/PS9yb.jpg
Not viable for esport.
It's not your CPU that's bottlenecking you...

#12 zjoom

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:36 AM

GW2 Forums,

Quote

We are currently optimizing Guild Wars 2, making ongoing improvements to the game’s frame rate. Presently, the game is CPU-bound on most high-end systems, so lowering graphics settings or upgrading your video card may not have a large impact on performance.
On older or lower-end machines, it is recommended that you try disabling reflections to improve frame rate.

The average FPS for most users is 30-40, including you.
Some have worse 15-20.

Unplayable.

#13 Hyuru

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:39 AM

View Postzjoom, on 30 April 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

GW2 Forums,


The average FPS for most users is 30-40, including you.
Some have worse 15-20.

Unplayable.
I have around 60 fps everywhere, unless im streaming then it goes down to 30-50 depending on zone.

#14 zjoom

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:41 AM

No you do not, Arenanet reports that even with GTX 680 the best FPS you can expect during combat is 45.

There is no FPS display option in-game, you are likely not familiar with esports and are too easy to believe that 30-40fps is better than what it is.

#15 Hyuru

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:46 AM

View Postzjoom, on 30 April 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

No you do not, Arenanet reports that even with GTX 680 the best FPS you can expect during combat is 45.

There is no FPS display option in-game, you are likely not familiar with esports and are too easy to believe that 30-40fps is better than what it is.
Did you set your CPU priority to high? That increased my fps with ~~20

Edited by Hyuru, 30 April 2012 - 08:46 AM.


#16 Vadren

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:31 AM

That post is poorly written and doesn't make any good points.

A few examples:

Quote

- keybinds are terrible. fix them. the spell system with the current keybinds are clunky and lack fluidity. remove cooldowns of swapping between dif wep spells so we can be more “clutch”

Rebind.

Quote

- bg style gaming never stressed the importance of real real hardcore talent and is far less punishing then a format where you get one death. you must have a hardcore mode for hardcore players and esports

LoL doesn't have hardcore competition? Yes it does.

Quote

- nothing is important, spells are rather weak and most of the spells are glorified damage dealing spells with secondary cc effects taged on. they often are just the same spell with a dif name

This is just flat out wrong and ignorance on the writer's part. http://wiki.guildwar...om/wiki/Effects

Overall impression on the post: Dumb or troll. However more likely: Dumb, or dumb and troll. Definitely dumb.

Reason dictates GW2's validity as an esport will be proven/disproven when there is real competition and not by the ramblings of someone who feels WoW is a quality esport.
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#17 Pawzz

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:03 PM

I agree with some of the points, the game feels very clunky and slow. Movement is really bad imo. The game is fun, but I dont know if I would play it over MoP (if mop pvp is good), just because of how fluent and easy to control (and do what you want) wow is. In gw2 I always know what to do, but the camera and controls just fuck me up so bad that im waaaay slower than I am supposed to be.

#18 RobZGod

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:55 PM

I sure hope so.

Doubtful though because it doesn't have a spectator mode.

Arena net really pissed me off when they said they're designing the game to be an esport, but then say the game won't have a spectator mode at launch. Dev's are idiots.
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#19 Phase92

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:27 PM

Some points are badly made, but the essence of what your saying is correct imo

#20 treeqt

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 04:16 PM

It's quite evident that he is coming from WoW.
Had a good laugh at top 1%.
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