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#41 FukkenZuzah

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 04:21 AM

View Postaveragepriestz, on 14 January 2012 - 04:11 AM, said:

HoW still comes on top even with the talents and glyphs. As I stated with the quote from Examplar Mystic. You were right about the 2pct13 moving Judgement up after CS, except with Zealotry up.

@Zuzah: The only thing you've said so far is your own empirical bullshit. You back it up with it being RNG, but fact is, crit will pretty fast even out in a 3 minute game around where your crit rate is supposed to be. I don't care if youre playing 3 DPS, in that case your could argue u should use 2000 resilience and just go all out because games are done in 10 seconds.

I'm talking about proper games where u play for more than 30 seconds.

You also act like you have a clue on whats going on, and that you dont know Exampler (one of the most recognized Rets around in PvE). Regardless of it being PvE, damage is still damage, meaning it will also do the highest damage in PvP. And alot of people are saying that they see Crit pulling ahead of Mastery in simcraft, but I am digging deeper into that.

P.s. You know mastery doesn't work on Auto Attacks right
Examplar sounds like a swell guy. I've never heard of him up until this point. You have no actual logs backing up your crit > mastery statement, only what your boyfriend Examplar said. Once you come back with some of your own material/proof, I'll take you seriously. Until that, you're a copypastaing retard.

If you want me to, I'll start a facebook fanpage for this Examplar guy for ya, free of charge.
[13:28:58] [W From] [85:Cowmôôflage]: i will always be knows as best feral on this realm
[13:28:58] [W From] [85:Cowmôôflage]: byz

#42 averagepriestz

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 04:21 AM

Here you go Zuzah:

Mastery, Haste, and Crit
To cover this topic for the third (and hopefully final time) - if you have sufficient Mastery, Haste and Crit can move ahead of it. This is because Haste means more CS and TV (which employ Mastery) and Crit means CS/TV hit harder (which is then reflected by Mastery). However, if you start gearing Haste/Crit over Mastery you very rapidly fall back below the threshold as you shed too much Mastery. The sweet spot on a very, very few tests I did was around 1.2 Mastery to 1.0 Haste/Crit (whichever you like more). Again, these were a half-dozen tests, which is far below significant statistical determination and not to be taken as a gospel.

Bottom Line: Keep Mastery above Crit and Haste. You'll get within 97% of optimum if you stick with reforge to Mastery then anything that cannot reforge to Mastery (already present) use Crit/Haste. Reforge a few items away from Mastery to Crit or Haste if you must have that last 3% on paper (which may not exist in reality due to how heavy RNG affects our class and movement/latency/procs impacting Haste gains).

In a PvP scenario that would probaly mean you would want 1.2 Mastery for 1 Crit, since Haste is useless in PvP when you're in CC.

Edit: I have plenty of evidence. Go check the 68 pages long Elitist Jerks thread. Check Simcraft, check Redcape OR Exemplar's spreadsheet. You're the "lonely" one here trying to act all e-hero on this. Keep living in denial and stay a scrub. The fact that you haven't heard of him just means you have no clue on what theory is behind Ret Paladins at all. Welcome to Cataclysm son

Edited by averagepriestz, 14 January 2012 - 04:24 AM.


#43 FukkenZuzah

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 04:23 AM

View Postaveragepriestz, on 14 January 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

Here you go Zuzah:

Mastery, Haste, and Crit
To cover this topic for the third (and hopefully final time) - if you have sufficient Mastery, Haste and Crit can move ahead of it. This is because Haste means more CS and TV (which employ Mastery) and Crit means CS/TV hit harder (which is then reflected by Mastery). However, if you start gearing Haste/Crit over Mastery you very rapidly fall back below the threshold as you shed too much Mastery. The sweet spot on a very, very few tests I did was around 1.2 Mastery to 1.0 Haste/Crit (whichever you like more). Again, these were a half-dozen tests, which is far below significant statistical determination and not to be taken as a gospel.

Bottom Line: Keep Mastery above Crit and Haste. You'll get within 97% of optimum if you stick with reforge to Mastery then anything that cannot reforge to Mastery (already present) use Crit/Haste. Reforge a few items away from Mastery to Crit or Haste if you must have that last 3% on paper (which may not exist in reality due to how heavy RNG affects our class and movement/latency/procs impacting Haste gains).

In a PvP scenario that would probaly mean you would want 1.2 Mastery for 1 Crit, since Haste is useless in PvP when you're in CC.
Haste is useless no matter what.

All you've done here is agree with me. You feeling good about yourself champ?
You feelin' good?
WELL YA SHOULDN'T.

Also I'm not the only agreeing with this mastery > crit agenda.
[13:28:58] [W From] [85:Cowmôôflage]: i will always be knows as best feral on this realm
[13:28:58] [W From] [85:Cowmôôflage]: byz

#44 averagepriestz

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 04:29 AM

http://www.thearisto...eet - 12-6.xlsm

Knock yourself out retard, you probably don't even know what it does, since its the first time you see an Excel spreadsheet.

And obviously I copy paste, that doesnt mean its not true rofl. You really want everyone to come up with their own theorycrafting for it to be true? oh man gl in school

Edit: In response to your "taunt". I dont mind admitting when Im wrong or right. I said previously people are beginning to see that Crit pulls ahead. In recent gear setups using the spreadsheet Crit comes in at 1.7 and Mastery at 1.715, so they are basicly a 1 to 1.

I even said I prefered Mastery for longer fights. You said u didnt like crit cause it was RNG, again proving how ur brain works. Crit will always be very close to the stated rating after 1 minute. I also said I didnt care about 3 DPS.

Edited by averagepriestz, 14 January 2012 - 04:32 AM.


#45 FukkenZuzah

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 04:31 AM

View Postaveragepriestz, on 14 January 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

http://www.thearisto...eet - 12-6.xlsm

Knock yourself out retard, you probably don't even know what it does, since its the first time you see an Excel spreadsheet.

And obviously I copy paste, that doesnt mean its not true rofl. You really want everyone to come up with their own theorycrafting for it to be true? oh man gl in school
I don't wanna get banned, fact of the matter is, you have no idea what you're talking about yourself, and your defense is that everyone else has no clue. Your entire argument is based off of what is posted on EJ, you're so fucking stupid for thinking this. It's a bad mindset, although it'll definitely help you in PvE if you have no clue, and can't even do LFR, but if this is how Exemplar is raiding, no fucking wonder he isn't R1 on a lot of fights, he sounds like he has no clue what he's doing.
[13:28:58] [W From] [85:Cowmôôflage]: i will always be knows as best feral on this realm
[13:28:58] [W From] [85:Cowmôôflage]: byz

#46 averagepriestz

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 04:36 AM

Im going to bed, theres no point arguing with you. You strike me as rather ignorant. You refuse to check all the links I've provided for you, yet you have nothing to back yourself up.

Its like trying to reason with a kid that has downs, they believe in what they think and they disregard all the other empiric and documented evidence because it was made by other humans *GASP*

#47 FukkenZuzah

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 04:46 AM

View Postaveragepriestz, on 14 January 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

Im going to bed, theres no point arguing with you. You strike me as rather ignorant. You refuse to check all the links I've provided for you, yet you have nothing to back yourself up.

Its like trying to reason with a kid that has downs, they believe in what they think and they disregard all the other empiric and documented evidence because it was made by other humans *GASP*
My condition has no pertaining weight in this discussion. Please keep it out of it.

You strike me as a brownosing wintrading PvE abusing scumbag.

Aaaaaaand scene...
[13:28:58] [W From] [85:Cowmôôflage]: i will always be knows as best feral on this realm
[13:28:58] [W From] [85:Cowmôôflage]: byz

#48 Shakes

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 07:52 AM

mastery > crit

use chest and legs to maximize mastery

i would not play ret this season without 2pc. anyone who says otherwise doesn't understand the value of additional holy power regeneration

http://us.battle.net...hakesx/advanced

Edited by Shakes, 14 January 2012 - 07:53 AM.


#49 Ragingsteer

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 09:36 AM

Vanguards goes crit and doesn't appear to use 2pc.

I think I'll go with what he does.

http://us.battle.net...anguards/simple
wtb D3

#50 zephah

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 09:54 AM

View PostRagingsteer, on 14 January 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

Vanguards goes crit and doesn't appear to use 2pc.

I think I'll go with what he does.

http://us.battle.net...anguards/simple

Vanguards was also quoted in a thread saying he has several sets ranging from 3500 resil to 4800 depending on what comp he's playing with and against at the time.

#51 averagepriestz

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 12:17 PM

View PostShakes, on 14 January 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

mastery > crit

use chest and legs to maximize mastery

i would not play ret this season without 2pc. anyone who says otherwise doesn't understand the value of additional holy power regeneration

http://us.battle.net...hakesx/advanced

You holy power from Judgement comes 1,2 seconds after you judge and wont work if you get CC'ed. You lose tons of iLvl by using LFR and you lack out on like +400 strength by using other offset items. Not to mention the best weapon ingame is from DW.

Im fine without 2piece :)

#52 averagepriestz

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 12:20 PM

View PostFukkenZuzah, on 14 January 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

My condition has no pertaining weight in this discussion. Please keep it out of it.

You strike me as a brownosing wintrading PvE abusing scumbag.

Aaaaaaand scene...

I should strike you as superior, since each time I try to make a statement I back it up with tons of evidence, where as you just reject it because a person you don't know created it. By the looks of it you know nobody.

My experience in PvP and PvE goes far beyond that of yours aswell. I'd asume you're around 18 and perhas just finished high school. Especially with that retarded sense of logic you have, you can't me very mature.

"ITS NOT TRUE LOL I DONT KNOW HIM". You said that to your teachers aswell when you couldnt figure out math too? Cause you never heard of Pythagoras?

#53 FukkenZuzah

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 12:30 PM

View Postaveragepriestz, on 14 January 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

I should strike you as superior, since each time I try to make a statement I back it up with tons of evidence, where as you just reject it because a person you don't know created it. By the looks of it you know nobody.

My experience in PvP and PvE goes far beyond that of yours aswell. I'd asume you're around 18 and perhas just finished high school. Especially with that retarded sense of logic you have, you can't me very mature.

"ITS NOT TRUE LOL I DONT KNOW HIM". You said that to your teachers aswell when you couldnt figure out math too? Cause you never heard of Pythagoras?
And I'll assume you're in your +twenties, given the fact that you're a freelancing Freudian, miniscale philosopher, thinking of the great big things of this world, taking from my replies what you want. You back it up with the same evidence each time, I simply backed it up with evidence from my own personal experiences, I never said it's not true because I don't know him, I said I don't know him, and what he must be doing is wrong.
You have no clue about me first of all. Second of all I'm shit at math, so is almost everyone else who isn't a mathmetician, but that doesn't make you any less of a cunt. And I'm quite into greek history, history in general. I'm quite the history buff. Mostly into the U.S part of history though, it interests me. But yes I've heard of Pythagoras, you ever heard of Plato? He once said, and I quote: 'Don't be a fucking retard Flagermus.'

Protip is, if you can't argue without insulting, you have no idea what you're arguing about, I just naturally swear a lot. You... You on the other hand. :D
Also try not to be so arrogant with your tutored bullshit. <3
[13:28:58] [W From] [85:Cowmôôflage]: i will always be knows as best feral on this realm
[13:28:58] [W From] [85:Cowmôôflage]: byz

#54 averagepriestz

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 12:39 PM

I can't argue without insulting because its so obvious how retarded you are, and it pissed me off that its impossible to try and even prove anything, despite having all the empirical evidence, due to you just waving your hand and denying it all because "your 1800 adventures" says otherwise when you once managed to score a kill.

With Mystic, we actually managed to get some kind of closure and have a conclusion. With you, its like trying to teach a baby to walk.

#55 FukkenZuzah

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 12:42 PM

View Postaveragepriestz, on 14 January 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

I can't argue without insulting because its so obvious how retarded you are, and it pissed me off that its impossible to try and even prove anything, despite having all the empirical evidence, due to you just waving your hand and denying it all because "your 1800 adventures" says otherwise when you once managed to score a kill.

With Mystic, we actually managed to get some kind of closure and have a conclusion. With you, its like trying to teach a baby to walk.
I'm sorry you feel that way, and I'm horribly sorry if I've offended you in my ways. But fact of the matter is, I'm not the only one arguing for Mastery being better than Crit in this thread, and my 1800 adventures, really? Not even my lowest rated alt is stuck in the 1800s (JK my hunter is 1900). Anywho, I'm off for now. If you feel like discussing this further I'd prefer it over a PM so we don't spam this thread further.

Have a nice day, for god's sake be nicer in the future, I'll try to do the same.
[13:28:58] [W From] [85:Cowmôôflage]: i will always be knows as best feral on this realm
[13:28:58] [W From] [85:Cowmôôflage]: byz

#56 averagepriestz

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 01:06 PM

I already gave you that it turns out in PvE that Mastery is still slightly superior. However Crit is right behind, so in PvP the difference would be very slim.

I just want you to accept the fact that I linked 5 different spreadsheets and threads and take a look at them instead of just rejecting them like some 10 yearold.

Same goes for Mystic. The DPS rotation, without the 2pt13 is the one from the front page of EJ. And even with the new set, and in PvE you would still want to HoW before Exorcism.

#57

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 01:38 AM

First of all thanks for trashing this topic, for anyone searching pros and cons on 2pc t13 in arena.

As for t13 - 2pc is great holy power generator on arenas - its like 50% more Hp. Getting feared, 2 Cs dodges on feral and stuff - getting kited or getting dodges/misses really mess for example popping Cds, when u plan to pop everything and got unlucky streak of 10sec w/o Hp - judgment Hp prevents it.

A for mastery vs crit topic - in pve they are almost equal, high (like 400ilvl) pve gear sims show 1.80 mastery vs 1.75 crit to 3.4str ratios.

As for arenas i prefer crit. Outside healing crits, mastery got lower dmg output overall. Mastery is so high in pve environment, cause you are 100% on target without dodges/misses and u hit CS every 3.5sec.

PVP although, number of CSes drops like a half and we got more dmg from dots/judgments/exos/seals or even holy wrath :P

All of each is affected by crit, none by mastery.

P.S. Don't need to post another EJ thread, i know why ppl like to stack mastery - those TV crits are more ground shaking.

P.S. 2 Rep if cleared things a little.

Edited by Pawik, 15 January 2012 - 01:43 AM.


#58 averagepriestz

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 12:36 AM

You just proved what I already said? Nvm tho they dont believe in theory from EJ lol

#59 Protectah

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 05:48 AM

The delay on receiving the holy power is really annoying and losing the strength for most people (403->384) doesn't feel worth it. I am trained every game (who isn't) and i feel the extra resil. I guess most people can say 'but most ret comps are zerg style' etc although if you are winning games fast zealotry supplies more than enough HP. The counter argument is that sometimes it can be incredibly hard to get those initial holy power to inq or zealotry or even throw a heal out onto your partner. Dodges/parries/cc/range can all be fun. The set bonus gives early game security and holy power outside of cooldowns.

Depends on your comp and bracket!

With regard to the Crit vs Mastery argument i remember reading on EJ that self buffed, Crit pulls ahead of Mastery. Raid buffed (Mark/5%crit/shout) then Mastery is ahead. Personally don't think it matters, you do good damage either way. Crit also pushes Last Word WOG's close to 100%.

#60 fresh_

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 05:59 AM

View Postaveragepriestz, on 14 January 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

You holy power from Judgement comes 1,2 seconds after you judge and wont work if you get CC'ed. You lose tons of iLvl by using LFR and you lack out on like +400 strength by using other offset items. Not to mention the best weapon ingame is from DW.

Im fine without 2piece :)

The 2 set t13 should 100% be baseline for Rets at the moment and yes the strength trade off is worth it just get 397 tier and you're set.

and about the CC'd thing again when ever I'm playing without 2 set and my CS dodges it sucks and the 2 set negates this holy power downtime (if you can call it that? haha)

edit. realised post date went pretty full retard <3

Edited by Aesthetiic, 20 April 2012 - 06:01 AM.

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