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#21 FukkenZuzah

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 10:51 PM

Mastery is far superior given that it's not an RNG stat, it's a flat-out damage increase to 3 abilities (one of which you don't use of course), and with the amount of +damage, you're going to hit hard even without crit. Given that Mystic's hit me with 45k TV followed by a near 30k mastery hit, Mastery is far superior compared to critting. Of course Crit will always give a higher damage output instead of Mastery, if it crits, but your talents will give you enough crit to not gem, enchant, or reforge for it.

Edit: http://i.imgur.com/mw7PR.png This is without any buffs at all.
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#22 Tanylialól

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 11:40 PM

Those extra 10% dmg on mastery won't make you win any games really. Crits doing wings and WOG crits will though

#23 FukkenZuzah

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 12:00 AM

View PostTanylialól, on 13 January 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

Those extra 10% dmg on mastery won't make you win any games really. Crits doing wings and WOG crits will though
The little amount of crit that you gain as opposed to the amount of mastery you can gain is negligible.
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#24 averagepriestz

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 12:58 AM

View PostFukkenZuzah, on 13 January 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

Mastery is far superior given that it's not an RNG stat, it's a flat-out damage increase to 3 abilities (one of which you don't use of course), and with the amount of +damage, you're going to hit hard even without crit. Given that Mystic's hit me with 45k TV followed by a near 30k mastery hit, Mastery is far superior compared to critting. Of course Crit will always give a higher damage output instead of Mastery, if it crits, but your talents will give you enough crit to not gem, enchant, or reforge for it.

Edit: http://i.imgur.com/mw7PR.png This is without any buffs at all.

I'm sorry where exactly do your pull these numbers out from? Your ass? Its proven that Crit provides superior DPS without raid buffs. And I asume we can agree that Arena is not a PvE enviourment. If you look at my previous post, that comes straight from EJ Im sure you won't spew random wrong information out anymore.

View PostHeroFish, on 13 January 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

"ok"

Not just "ok". 2 Piece T13 is not that good for PvP. The Holy Power gain has a 1 second delay, and most of the times you want to use it straight away in PvP. It is also one of the lowest prioritized abilities when trying to deal damage.

Further more if you get CC'ed or the target dies you will not gain the Holy Power either. Compared to the 403 pieces, even if you get both 397 you still miss out on alot of stats due to the PvP setbonus. In most setups Rets are focused alot, and unless you play down syndrome comps like 3 DPS you would want more than 3500 resilience.

Edited by averagepriestz, 14 January 2012 - 12:59 AM.


#25 FukkenZuzah

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 01:35 AM

View Postaveragepriestz, on 14 January 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

I'm sorry where exactly do your pull these numbers out from? Your ass? Its proven that Crit provides superior DPS without raid buffs. And I asume we can agree that Arena is not a PvE enviourment. If you look at my previous post, that comes straight from EJ Im sure you won't spew random wrong information out anymore.



Not just "ok". 2 Piece T13 is not that good for PvP. The Holy Power gain has a 1 second delay, and most of the times you want to use it straight away in PvP. It is also one of the lowest prioritized abilities when trying to deal damage.

Further more if you get CC'ed or the target dies you will not gain the Holy Power either. Compared to the 403 pieces, even if you get both 397 you still miss out on alot of stats due to the PvP setbonus. In most setups Rets are focused alot, and unless you play down syndrome comps like 3 DPS you would want more than 3500 resilience.
Might I ask where you're getting your numbers from?
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#26 averagepriestz

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 02:11 AM

View PostFukkenZuzah, on 14 January 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

Might I ask where you're getting your numbers from?

EJ - Elitist Jerks. Perhaps the largest and most recognized theorycrafting site in WoW?

http://elitistjerks...._4_3_voice_dps/

So yeah Critical Strike rating actually comes on top in arena. I prefer Mastery myself though simply because I just don't like RNG, and when it happens I hit harder.

#27 averagepriestz

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 02:15 AM

View PostMystzr, on 14 January 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

TV @ 3 HP > CS > JUDGEMENT > TV @ DP

It seems like some of you guys are pretty slow at learning, do I have to link it 3 times?

The Ret paladin "rotation" shares something with Wrath - it is priority based. The priority for single-target is one of the following:

Inq > CS > HoW > Exo > TV > J > HW > Cons

Point here is that you should always CS, because you will always want the Holy Power. In PvP I'd probably use TV over Exorcism first though, due to not using Glyph of

Edit: Just like many people do not realise that for optimal DPS you would want to use GoAK, wait 10 seconds, then pop Zealotry + Wings at the same time along with Trinket.

You might lose out on some Exo/TV/HoW procs due to GCD, but you still want to use it all together and follow the above rotation.

Edited by averagepriestz, 14 January 2012 - 02:29 AM.


#28 Mystzr

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 02:48 AM

I think you're pretty slow at learning. When you use 2pc t13 the priority system changes due to the holy power generation from Judgement. Stop trying to link things from EJ if you don't actually have a clue yourself.

And the "priority" you just linked isn't correct.

It's Inq APPLY > Inq REFRESH @ X Holy Power > TV @ 3 Holy Power > CS > JUDGEMENT > Inq REFRESH @ Divine Purpose > TV @ Divine Purpose

Pointless discussion anyway!

Edited by Mystzr, 14 January 2012 - 02:59 AM.


#29 averagepriestz

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:01 AM

View PostMystzr, on 14 January 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:

I think you're pretty slow at learning. When you use 2pc t13 the priority system changes due to the holy power generation from Judgement. Stop trying to link things from EJ if you don't actually have a clue yourself.

And the "priority" you just linked isn't correct.

It's Inq APPLY @ 3 Holy Power > TV @ 3 Holy Power > CS > JUDGEMENT > Inq REFRESH @ Divine Purpose > TV @ Divine Purpose

Pointless discussion anyway!

No it doesnt change. You do know EJ is updated for 4.3 right? You have no information to back your statements up, you're just asuming it changes. It doesn't. The one I linked is for high end gear sets, which is also for 403 sets.

Where do you get your rotation from? You haven't even included Exorcism or Hammer of Wrath lol

#30 Mystzr

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:06 AM

Yes it does change. Your quote is wrong too.

I also didn't include the rest of the priority because I felt there was no point.

The amount of Holy Power used to apply Inq can vary depending on the fight, but if we say we're going to refresh Inq when it has less then 2 seconds remaining and only on 3 Holy Power it would make the priority look like this when _not_ using Zealotry:

Inq @ 3 Holy Power
Templar's Verdict @ 3 Holy Power
Crusader Strike
Judgement
Inq @ Divine Purpose
Templar's Verdict @ Divine Purpose
Exorcism
Hammer of Wrath
Holy Wrath
Consecration

Stop arguing with me. I know what I'm talking about.

Edited by Mystzr, 14 January 2012 - 03:12 AM.


#31 averagepriestz

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:11 AM

I found something regarding that on page 60. Asuming you are indeed running the 2pc. I would still strongly advice not to atleast, and use the rotation as I wrote earlier

#32 Mystzr

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:16 AM

Why would we use the rotation you wrote earlier? You're claiming that we should use Hammer of Wrath before Exorcism. All you've done is copy and paste incorrect information from EJ. Stop doing that.

#33 FukkenZuzah

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:21 AM

View Postaveragepriestz, on 14 January 2012 - 03:11 AM, said:

I found something regarding that on page 60. Asuming you are indeed running the 2pc. I would still strongly advice not to atleast, and use the rotation as I wrote earlier
ElitistJerks deals entirely in PvE. You're a moron. I say this as a fact, not as an insult. It's currently freezing outside, and you're a moron. Now on to the subject. Mastery will always grant more damage, it has been tested by me on dummies, and actual players, and over about a thousand arena matches. Even in PvE it's better. In tripple DPS where you just want ret heals and some damage here and there, crit is amazing, yeah. But stop running your mouth with copy-pasta from EJ when you barely even play ret.
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#34 averagepriestz

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:40 AM

Who says I dont play Ret? or did before?

Hammer of Wrath is a strong DPS boost, you have to remember you are not specced or glyphed into Exorcism thats why HoW pulls ahead.

EJ talks about how to optimize ur dmg, Crit also speaks for burst + offheals. So I see it as the better option like they do

#35 Mystzr

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:46 AM

Just fuck. Hammer of Wrath got nerfed which is the reason why Exorcism is ahead of it now. And as I said all the information you've been copying & pasting from the front page of EJ has been incorrect. You also previously said that you favor Mastery over Crit due to its RNG nature. And now you are agreeing with some others about Crit being better then Mastery?

The argument between Crit & Haste is moot at this point, I've just been discussing the PvE side to Ret damage after someone questioned the stat priority of Ret in PvE.

Edited by Mystzr, 14 January 2012 - 03:47 AM.


#36 FukkenZuzah

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:47 AM

View Postaveragepriestz, on 14 January 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

Who says I dont play Ret? or did before?

Hammer of Wrath is a strong DPS boost, you have to remember you are not specced or glyphed into Exorcism thats why HoW pulls ahead.

EJ talks about how to optimize ur dmg, Crit also speaks for burst + offheals. So I see it as the better option like they do
No matter what you say, no matter what I say, or everyone else say, crit is RNG.
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#37 averagepriestz

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 03:55 AM

View PostMystzr, on 14 January 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

Just fuck. Hammer of Wrath got nerfed which is the reason why Exorcism is ahead of it now. And as I said all the information you've been copying & pasting from the front page of EJ has been incorrect. You also previously said that you favor Mastery over Crit due to its RNG nature. And now you are agreeing with some others about Crit being better then Mastery?

The argument between Crit & Haste is moot at this point, I've just been discussing the PvE side to Ret damage after someone questioned the stat priority of Ret in PvE.

I favour mastery, but doesnt mean its better on paper. It isnt. The trinket from Ultraxion is also better than Heroic Spine trinket despite being 6 iLvls lower. Crit is RNG but in general crit will still be what the percentage says over a longer arena fight. So youre still able to simulate damage output

Exorcism does LESS damage than HoW, even after the nerf. EVEN IN PVE. So imagine without the glyph and without the +20% dmg spec.

Examplar writes: Even with HoW crit rate vastly reduced, the priority of HoW ahead of Exo seems to remain. I suspect this is because delaying HoW will set back the CD on the next, while delaying Exo rarely will lose an Exo proc.

If you dont know who this guy is, I suggest you stop trying to convince anyone otherwise due to ur "own observations of a 1000 arenas"

P.s. And Examplar is updating the front page still.

Edited by averagepriestz, 14 January 2012 - 04:01 AM.


#38 Mystzr

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 04:01 AM

Yeah you're right about HoW being higher on priority than Exorcism when not using Blazing Light & Glyph of Exorcism, however I was discussing purely PvE which would assume the Ret has both the talent and the glyph.

From what I've gathered from your posts, unlike you I'm more then willing to admit where there may have been some sort of misunderstanding.

If Exemplar was updating the front page constantly with every bit of important information, perhaps you have a reason as to why there is no mention on the changing of the priority system once attaining 2pc t13?

Edited by Mystzr, 14 January 2012 - 04:03 AM.


#39 FukkenZuzah

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 04:03 AM

View Postaveragepriestz, on 14 January 2012 - 03:55 AM, said:

I favour mastery, but doesnt mean its better on paper. It isnt. The trinket from Ultraxion is also better than Heroic Spine trinket despite being 6 iLvls lower. Crit is RNG but in general crit will still be what the percentage says over a longer arena fight. So youre still able to simulate damage output

Exorcism does LESS damage than HoW, even after the nerf. EVEN IN PVE. So imagine without the glyph and without the +20% dmg spec.

Examplar writes: Even with HoW crit rate vastly reduced, the priority of HoW ahead of Exo seems to remain. I suspect this is because delaying HoW will set back the CD on the next, while delaying Exo rarely will lose an Exo proc.

If you dont know who this guy is, I suggest you stop trying to convince anyone otherwise due to ur "own observations of a 1000 arenas"

P.s. And Examplar is updating the front page still.
If Examplar is your buttbuddy that's perfectly fine with me, but if he was someone I needed to know about, with my orientation of the game, I would've known about him. He's unknown to me. You're talking straight PvE, I was arguing about PvP, if you hadn't noticed. Crit is still RNG, which Mastery isn't, and most ret/x/x games don't last long enough for crit to actually outlast Mastery in any case. When ret pops CDs, it needs damage upfront, not 'maybe I crit and kill'.
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#40 averagepriestz

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 04:11 AM

HoW still comes on top even with the talents and glyphs. As I stated with the quote from Examplar Mystic. You were right about the 2pct13 moving Judgement up after CS, except with Zealotry up.

@Zuzah: The only thing you've said so far is your own empirical bullshit. You back it up with it being RNG, but fact is, crit will pretty fast even out in a 3 minute game around where your crit rate is supposed to be. I don't care if youre playing 3 DPS, in that case your could argue u should use 2000 resilience and just go all out because games are done in 10 seconds.

I'm talking about proper games where u play for more than 30 seconds.

You also act like you have a clue on whats going on, and that you dont know Exampler (one of the most recognized Rets around in PvE). Regardless of it being PvE, damage is still damage, meaning it will also do the highest damage in PvP. And alot of people are saying that they see Crit pulling ahead of Mastery in simcraft, but I am digging deeper into that.

P.s. You know mastery doesn't work on Auto Attacks right




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