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NAO Invitational Tournament 2!


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#21 NickyEU

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 06:25 PM

Anyways, there is no way to please everyone and what NAO is doing for the community is great. What we could do is come with constructive feedback that the organizer could benefit from or just be happy that they are doing something for us.
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#22 Xandyn

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 06:52 PM

[quote name='NickyEU' timestamp='1325960704' post='3608211']
Anyways, there is no way to please everyone and what NAO is doing for the community is great. What we could do is come with constructive feedback that the organizer could benefit from or just be happy that they are doing something for us.
[/quote]

Well my piece of constructive feedback from what I've seen is:

1. Cooldown spells that are used in the starting room in normal Live games, on NAO tourneys should be used when the tourney hosts start the 60 second countdown. The reason due to this is because since mages summon water elemental as soon as they enter arena, and priests do the same with Fearward, when the game actually STARTS (since it takes time to kill the streaming chars), Fearward will be about to come off cooldown, and water elemental is soon up as well, this causes some unbalances, i.e. killing Water Elemental unviable strat, priests immune to 2 fears in a row, etc.

2. Some crucial PvE gear should be allowed, there are defensive and offensive comps, or rather outlast or kill fast comps. Comps like RLS/Shadowplay, even MLS just rely on outlasting enemy survival cooldowns, then scoring a kill, meanwhile comps like RMP/PHD, etc rely strongly on bursting through enemy survival cooldowns quickly to score a kill. Therefore the no PvE gear rule vastly favors turtling comps. Imagine if locks were only allowed to run in 3k resilience for example. Yes, live gear, full PvE, vial of shadows, 2x T13, etc, etc, is retarded and unbalanced, but SOME PvE gear SHOULD be allowed (PvE gear equal to 384 ilvl or lower, or even 378 ilvl, so if somebody will want to use PvE item it will be a big trade between 403 ilvl pvp item and 378 pve ilvl item), that would only make sense.

Edited by Xandyn, 07 January 2012 - 06:58 PM.

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#23 mukuld50

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 07:26 PM

[quote name='Xandyn' timestamp='1325962342' post='3608227']
Well my piece of constructive feedback from what I've seen is:

1. Cooldown spells that are used in the starting room in normal Live games, on NAO tourneys should be used when the tourney hosts start the 60 second countdown. The reason due to this is because since mages summon water elemental as soon as they enter arena, and priests do the same with Fearward, when the game actually STARTS (since it takes time to kill the streaming chars), Fearward will be about to come off cooldown, and water elemental is soon up as well, this causes some unbalances, i.e. killing Water Elemental unviable strat, priests immune to 2 fears in a row, etc.

2. Some crucial PvE gear should be allowed, there are defensive and offensive comps, or rather outlast or kill fast comps. Comps like RLS/Shadowplay, even MLS just rely on outlasting enemy survival cooldowns, then scoring a kill, meanwhile comps like RMP/PHD, etc rely strongly on bursting through enemy survival cooldowns quickly to score a kill. Therefore the no PvE gear rule vastly favors turtling comps. Imagine if locks were only allowed to run in 3k resilience for example. Yes, live gear, full PvE, vial of shadows, 2x T13, etc, etc, is retarded and unbalanced, but SOME PvE gear SHOULD be allowed (PvE gear equal to 384 ilvl or lower, or even 378 ilvl, so if somebody will want to use PvE item it will be a big trade between 403 ilvl pvp item and 378 pve ilvl item), that would only make sense.
[/quote]

I am not sure if you read all our posts correctly. Here are responses to your comments:

1) The cooldown stuff that you said was implemented in our previous tournament. There were some discrepancies, and not followed completely, just because well, we didnt have the complete rules set in stone. Us organizers are learning as well, so it will be better implemented this time.

2) Who said PvE gear is not allowed? Mages can still use Volcano Deck / Moonwell Challice, other 378 items (and the normal Ragnaros trinkets). NO dragon soul pve gear does not mean no PvE gear at all.
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#24 venruki

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 07:34 PM

[quote name='mukuld50' timestamp='1325964402' post='3608250']
I am not sure if you read all our posts correctly. Here are responses to your comments:

1) The cooldown stuff that you said was implemented in our previous tournament. There were some discrepancies, and not followed completely, just because well, we didnt have the complete rules set in stone. Us organizers are learning as well, so it will be better implemented this time.

2) Who said PvE gear is not allowed? Mages can still use Volcano Deck / Moonwell Challice, other 378 items (and the normal Ragnaros trinkets). NO dragon soul pve gear does not mean no PvE gear at all.
[/quote]


although I do agree it's probably for the better, taking out PvE gear and triple dps(which I think is a pretty reliable comp these days) almost guarantees a lock/shaman comp will win.
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#25 mukuld50

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 07:38 PM

[quote name='venruki' timestamp='1325964848' post='3608256']
although I do agree it's probably for the better, taking out PvE gear and triple dps(which I think is a pretty reliable comp these days) almost guarantees a lock/shaman comp will win.
[/quote]

Would you rather see an RMP global a shaman in a kidney?

I understand your point too but, if we allowed current level PvE gear, it would just be a big rogue-fest. Taking out PvE gear and triple DPS probably does guarantee a lock/shaman comp to win, but putting in PvE gear, will just make everyone to want a rogue on their team.

We are trying to limit the amount of RLS's that play in the tournament too >.>, yet the most interest that we are getting is from RLS's. I do not think that we want a bazillion RMPs like the EU tournament that just happened, and one of the strong points of our previous tournament was the diversity of comps that we had (granted lock shaman did win, but hey blame the game for that :P).

But thanks for all the comments / suggestions etc... we obviously want to do what the community agrees upon in general.

Edited by mukuld50, 07 January 2012 - 07:40 PM.

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#26 venruki

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 08:06 PM

[quote name='mukuld50' timestamp='1325965110' post='3608260']
Would you rather see an RMP global a shaman in a kidney?

I understand your point too but, if we allowed current level PvE gear, it would just be a big rogue-fest. Taking out PvE gear and triple DPS probably does guarantee a lock/shaman comp to win, but putting in PvE gear, will just make everyone to want a rogue on their team.

We are trying to limit the amount of RLS's that play in the tournament too >.>, yet the most interest that we are getting is from RLS's. I do not think that we want a bazillion RMPs like the EU tournament that just happened, and one of the strong points of our previous tournament was the diversity of comps that we had (granted lock shaman did win, but hey blame the game for that :P).

But thanks for all the comments / suggestions etc... we obviously want to do what the community agrees upon in general.
[/quote]

Guess you didn't see "Although I do agree it's probably for the better".

Like I said, hopefully I'm wrong... but if the top 4 is l/s/x, may warrant changing something up.

Just for the record I like the way the tournament is being ran, just trying to play Devil's advocate a bit.
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#27 Xandyn

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 08:09 PM

Ah my bad, didn't see the 'new pve gear' part :).
And didn't know about the cooldown part either, so good job on that!

[quote name='mukuld50' timestamp='1325965110' post='3608260']
Would you rather see an RMP global a shaman in a kidney?
[/quote]

You're either being a little bias or idk. Ok, lets pretend now, RLS vs RMP, in order for RMP to global a shaman in a kidney, the RLS team has to fail majorly first, you don't just global shaman, unless you have heroic vial, and step2 daggers. Obviously it's a correct choice to not allow these items. However, IMO PvE gear rules should be as follows:

1. No trinkets from Dragon Soul or HEROIC ilvl PvE trinkets from previous seasons allowed.

2. No weapon that procs the tentacles from Dragon Soul allowed.

3. All other PvE gear should be allowed for use, it will not create any unbalance, 378 ilvl PvE gear is a joke compared to 403 pvp gear, that's the problem. Mages and to some extent hunters NEED to wear PvE gear in order to be successful in the current state of the game. I'm not sure about hunters but a mage wearing above 3200 resilience is doing it VERY wrong. In no way a mage with +4k resil would ever win any serious LAN in this patch/season. Mage damage is balanced around wearing PvE gear, because no mastery=no damage. Other classes do not suffer as much from not being able to wear PvE gear, therefore it's unfair to the Mage class these rules tbh.
The only PvE gear that makes you godmode is trinkets/legendary staff/rogue weapons. Disallow that, rest should be allowed to use so you won't see RLS vs RLS finals.

I wear insane PvE gear on my mage on live, well not insane, but lots. And trust me we can still go 50-50 vs an RLS. You people make it out to be as if wearing PvE gear makes you lose no stats, I lose like 12% damage mitigation with my gear (2800 resilience). I decide to sacrifice survivability for damage, PvE gear is OP not because of that aspect, PvE gear is OP when you can equip it and not lose any survival, and it's only the trinkets/weapons that can bring such a trade-off.

and even furthermore declining gear itemisation kinda even kills the aspect of an MMO game, when you can't even gear up yourself properly as your class requires, it's kinda dumb. the only 378< ilvl pve item that's worth wearing over 403 pvp gear is the Soul Casket trinket.
[b]
ALSO MAJOR FAULT IN YOUR LOGIC:[/b]

You seem to think that USUAL PvE gear makes rogues OP? No. The only PvE gear that makes rogues retarded is the [b]weapons[/b] and the [b]Vial of Shadows[/b] trinket. Rest isn't even worth wearing over/completely irrelevant to rogues being OP. Khuna has 5 T13 pieces, yet we only wear Vial.

Rogue doesn't even benefit AT ALL from normal PvE gear, because they stack crit, and PvE gear has mastery/haste/etc., the T13 2pc bonus for rogue isn't even worth it, because Rogue isn't a mage and can't avoid damage after cooldowns been used.

If you don't let Vial/Weapons to be used you won't see 'rogue-fest', it's just going to make Mage comps stand a chance in the tournament.

Mage in RMP HAS to wear resilience in order for the comp to be successful/competitive. Vial/rogue PvE weapons is what makes RMP overpowered as it is now, not other PvE items. Declining usual PvE items will make the comp underdog, not balanced. And furthermore declining a comp from competing in a tournament because of tourney rules is kinda weird.


And lastly, to prove my words, just get a good RMP and RLS to wargame each other, let the rogue use PvE gear with NO vial/weapons and then PvP only gear with NO vial/weapons. You won't see a slight difference between the two.

Edited by Xandyn, 07 January 2012 - 08:27 PM.

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#28 mukuld50

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 08:14 PM

[quote name='venruki' timestamp='1325966797' post='3608292']
Guess you didn't see "Although I do agree it's probably for the better".

Like I said, hopefully I'm wrong... but if the top 4 is l/s/x, may warrant changing something up.

Just for the record I like the way the tournament is being ran, just trying to play Devil's advocate a bit.
[/quote]

I did see it :P. I was just playing devil's advocate as well, easiest way for me to constructively brainstorm
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#29 mukuld50

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 08:17 PM

And @ Xandyn - maybe I am being biased, but seeing a rogue with normal vial, tier one daggers taking a shaman down from 100% to 10% in 2 globals in a kidney (mostly because of vial), is just ridiculous.

[quote]You seem to think that PvE gear makes rogues OP? No. The only PvE gear that makes rogues retarded is the weapons and the Vial of Shadows trinket. Rest isn't even worth wearing over. Khuna has 5 T13 pieces, yet we only wear Vial. [/quote]

And the stacking agility trinket that humans can wear with vial. I realize that your point is to allow tier pieces, and off-PvE pieces, and restrict weapons and trinkets though. Our PvE concerns are mostly based around two things:

1) The obvious trinket/weapon issues.

2) Accessibility to the gear - raid finder vs. normal gear vs. heroic gear. Not everyone has same access to PvE gear, so it could potentially become an issue of how we control 384 vs 397 vs 403 ilevel items.

Edited by mukuld50, 07 January 2012 - 08:23 PM.

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#30 Xandyn

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 08:30 PM

[quote name='mukuld50' timestamp='1325967440' post='3608299']
And @ Xandyn - maybe I am being biased, but seeing a rogue with normal vial, tier one daggers taking a shaman down from 100% to 10% in 2 globals in a kidney (mostly because of vial), is just ridiculous.



And the stacking agility trinket that humans can wear with vial. I realize that your point is to allow tier pieces, and off-PvE pieces, and restrict weapons and trinkets though. Our PvE concerns are mostly based around two things:

1) The obvious trinket/weapon issues.

2) Accessibility to the gear - raid finder vs. normal gear vs. heroic gear. Not everyone has same access to PvE gear, so it could potentially become an issue of how we control 384 vs 397 vs 403 ilevel items.
[/quote]

No I agree 100% it's ridiculous and I 100% agree no Vial or Weapons should be allowed. As you said my point is you should allow tier items/off-pieces. About accessibility, don't let people use the Heroic Dragon Soul gear, obviously almost noone has access to that, but 397 + 384 off/main pieces should be allowed, as they are fairly easy to get. As a mage you can buy PvE gear for valor points, which are easy to get for anyone, you can also buy bracers that are BIS if you wish as well.

Anyways, only mages/hunters will even want to use PvE tier/offpieces, and I'm sure everyone who will be attending this tournament already had the decency to get the said items.

The reason to all of this is that you have to understand, 378 tier/offset is not even worth wearing over 403 ilvl pvp gear, but without PvE gear a Mage (atleast RMP mage) really can't do much in competitive play, against good teams.

With the logic you've got about accessibility you could also say that some people might not have 378 gear, etc etc. when there is no vendors like on Arena Pass realms it comes down to how decent/active you are to gear up your character for such tournaments, others should not suffer for a group of people not gearing their characters properly.


Btw, the fact that Lock/Shaman won your last tourney has nothing to do with the game, no offence. RMP for example can go 50-50 vs any lock/shaman team. But RLS counters RMP if the RMP mage has no PvE gear, it's just how it is. No PvE gear/outdated PvE gear only basically screams 'BOW TO OUR RLS OVERLORDS!' ~

I predict the 2012 Arena Pass, if it will happen in this expansion will have 397 PvE vendors, with no Vial/Cunning type of trinkets innit. That's what you should allow as well.

Edited by Xandyn, 07 January 2012 - 08:50 PM.

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#31 Champ

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 10:11 PM

I don't know why you keep saying mage NEEDS PvE gear, I use challice, mirror, and pve legs and thats plenty good enough
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#32 Xandyn

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 11:12 PM

[quote name='Champ' timestamp='1325974277' post='3608429']
I don't know why you keep saying mage NEEDS PvE gear, I use challice, mirror, and pve legs and thats plenty good enough
[/quote]

lol yes? that is pve gear in my dictionary? unless you think those items are pvp ?
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#33 Champ

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 11:19 PM

They are allowed in the tourny though, so why is this whole conversation happening?
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#34 Xandyn

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 01:02 AM

[quote name='Champ' timestamp='1325978349' post='3608479']
They are allowed in the tourny though, so why is this whole conversation happening?
[/quote]

Because you need more than outdated PvE gear to win good teams as RMP.

edit`
Nevermind, just saw your teams.

Edited by Xandyn, 08 January 2012 - 01:02 AM.

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#35 Champ

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 01:10 AM

yea sorry i literally leave my team every day, and run the worst comps you can imagine because im not a tryhard and i dont care about ratings right now

And those trinkets are hardly outdated, they are still amazing
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#36 Fearful

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 01:52 AM

[quote name='Xandyn' timestamp='1325984525' post='3608546']
Because you need more than outdated PvE gear to win good teams as RMP.

edit`
Nevermind, just saw your teams.
[/quote]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mtcS1xtqM0&feature=related[/media]

that's a fully pvp geared mage and one of the best RLS's in the US
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#37 Xandyn

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 04:53 AM

[quote name='Fearful' timestamp='1325987547' post='3608577']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mtcS1xtqM0&feature=related[/media]

that's a fully pvp geared mage and one of the best RLS's in the US
[/quote]

yeah, and I guess you are clueless about the game?

1. the RLS played awfully no offence to them, nobody stopped the mages shatter, lock sends his pet in on the priest, instead of putting it on top of shaman. stop the mage shatter and this will never happen. you could never ever do anything like this as rmp vs any good rls, but then again, if this RLS is the best RLS on the US, I can see where these rules are coming from then
best rls, jk lock jumping down on the opener and spending the entire game there, no howl, no cs on mage, shaman no totems, no riptide, jeez

2. how about that vial of shadows and the PvE weapons? i wouldn't really call vial 'outdated' pve gear? you basically just proved what I said, yes RMP can global a RLS shaman if the rogue has vial+pve weapons, OR when the RLS is absolutely clueless and doesn't stop the opener at all from the RMP. both of those happened, so obv the RLS got ra#ed. even 2.2k locks i meet on euro stop my shatters at the start lol

if the RLS stopped the opener this would have been a long ass game.
if RLS stopped the opener and rmp's rogue wud have no vial this would be an infinite game.

Edited by Xandyn, 08 January 2012 - 05:10 AM.

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#38 Xandyn

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 05:40 AM

You sound a little like a tool to me because you believe it's the state of the RMP that caused them to kill the shaman like that, when it was just the RLS playing horribly.

I said you won't win _GOOD_ team with outdated PvE gear. This is not a good team, or at least they didn't play any good. That AND the rogue has vial, new pve weapons, etc.. That's outdated/bad gear for you?

Why exactly are you linking the video? Mage damage is only high when not dealt with, as shown in the very video you linked, when a good team controls what the mage is doing, PvE gear comes in as a necessity in order for the mage to deal competitive damage.

Edited by Xandyn, 08 January 2012 - 06:34 AM.

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#39 Yes

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 06:18 AM

[color='red'][size="4"]Attention. Please refrain from insulting each other when talking about potential tournament rules.[/size][/color]
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#40 hearthadinlol

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 07:05 AM

no triple dps / no dub healer , means i can do double mage healer ^^?
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