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#1 Frostitutes

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:06 AM

So this thread is a direct result of my recent "I'm super bored so I'm just going to grab this cheap $10 game to amuse myself for a bit" purchase of Castlevania: Lords of Shadows. I'm about 8 hours into this game, mostly out of sheer amazement and stubbornness, and I'm still getting help messages explaining how to do things that any mildly intelligent monkey could figure out in a matter of moments if given some time to actually try... I started thinking about just how patronizing this game feels, until I came to the conclusion that it wasn't just this game, but almost all 'modern' games in general.

This is something that's been in my head for quite a while now (and probably one of the reasons why I have such a raging hardon for Dark/Demon's Souls), and I just recently found this video that summarizes and points out my thoughts pretty much exactly. It basically goes through and explains why Mega Man Classic and Mega Man X were such awesome games, and nearly all of the points he tries to emphasize on are relevant to the topic at hand.



Looking at how developers design games nowadays is something that's kind of depressed me whenever I stop and think about it. Call me elitist, whatever, but honestly, most games today are kind of pathetic in how little confidence they have in you as a player. Everything just seems to hold your hand as if you were a 4 year autistic kid, and progressing through games just kinda feels like going through the motions of it. I feel like new games, for the most part, are played to be finished, rather than played to be beaten (if that makes sense).

Does anyone else feel like this? I understand that it's cool that new games are more accessible to people, and that gaming in general is getting more mainstream, but is anyone else just disappointed with the direction game development seems to be going in?

Edited by Frostitutes, 09 November 2011 - 02:08 AM.

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#2 Duckers

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:19 AM

Shit graphics completely turn me off old games. Even ones I legitimately enjoyed years ago for hours upon hours I can't stand to play, I think I mentioned it before but I bought a 3DS purely to replay Ocarina of Time because I had always figured it to be one of my favourite games of all time, and I suppose is widely considered one of the best, and I could barely play past the second temple. Both the console/game sit in my drawer gathering dust unfinished now - ergh.

Guess design/story doesn't seem to carry much weight with me. I suppose I just play games for instant gratification these days.

#3 Frostitutes

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:28 AM

View PostDuckers, on 09 November 2011 - 02:19 AM, said:

Spoiler

Yea I can definitely understand the graphics complaint, it's the biggest thing holding me back from playing a lot of old NES games that I've never played before. The big thing for me though is just general gameplay and level design. Developers can, and do, make incredibly beautiful and visually impressive games; there's no way I can argue with that.

My only argument is that as a developer you can still do all these new, awesome things without also having to assume that the person playing their visually impressive game is also a fucking moron. You can have a really awesome level without making that really cool doorway, or that scary side path light up and glow to tell players where to go, as if they can't figure it out themselves. I've found this to be the case more often than not with newer games.
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#4 Thanatos

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:40 AM

Well my only issues with old games if I already played them a couple dozen times 10 years ago, I'd be horribly bored playing them now *OoT and MM*


Sometimes i'm underwhelmed and sometimes I enjoy modern games.  Played since late NES days and picked up a ton of amazing titles along the way.



Anyways there's always a couple modern games here and there that can compete with the old school games throughout the year. Though not as often as in the 90s. Point is that we're old and we're hard to please now :lol:
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#5 yeye

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:45 AM

feels like 1 out of 100 released games in a whole year is playable (singleplayer ofc), most games today are just plain bullshit, bad designed, bugged, too easy, good story shit gameplay, good story no atmosphere, good atmosphere almost no story etc
best games ive ever played were on c64, amiga and back in the MSDOS/Win 3.x/95/98 days (how about monkey island, zak mckracken, silkworm, wings of fury, GIANA SISTERS)
Dunno, most of the games today just feel too easy, you can step through them almost blind and its not, in any way, understable how people can really have problems while playing it.
games get just more and more casual, thats it - most of the games just have ONE good part (story, atmosphere, graphics, gameplay, innovative feature) and all remaining parts are awful or almost all parts are above average and the last one is that awful that your eyes start bleeding as you start it.
singleplayer games seem to get shorter and shorter, just compare ff7 with todays ff (13, 14?). back in the days square enix was like "ohfuckthisgamewillbeawesomeiMUSThaveit" now its just another random game which milks the memories out of  one of the best games ever.
Wont pay for any game until I played it, if its good ill buy it, otherwise they can go and fuck themselves (should even pay me for wasting space, traffic and time to download it)

#6 Claynz

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:49 AM

View PostDuckers, on 09 November 2011 - 02:19 AM, said:

Shit graphics completely turn me off old games. Even ones I legitimately enjoyed years ago for hours upon hours I can't stand to play, I think I mentioned it before but I bought a 3DS purely to replay Ocarina of Time because I had always figured it to be one of my favourite games of all time, and I suppose is widely considered one of the best, and I could barely play past the second temple. Both the console/game sit in my drawer gathering dust unfinished now - ergh.

Guess design/story doesn't seem to carry much weight with me. I suppose I just play games for instant gratification these days.



Have to agree on this, i tried one of my old fav games such as Command & Conqueror, Tiberian Sun, and Red Alert 1   played it for many many houers when i was young and now i cant be bothered due graphics....


I also played Vanila WoW on priv realm last month and i Found the WoW graphics to be boring and horrible and same with game balance :D    vanila WoW and Cata diffrence is MAJOR... but you kinda dont notice it over those 6 years.

#7 Duckers

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:54 AM

View PostFrostitutes, on 09 November 2011 - 02:28 AM, said:

Yea I can definitely understand the graphics complaint, it's the biggest thing holding me back from playing a lot of old NES games that I've never played before. The big thing for me though is just general gameplay and level design. Developers can, and do, make incredibly beautiful and visually impressive games; there's no way I can argue with that.

My only argument is that as a developer you can still do all these new, awesome things without also having to assume that the person playing their visually impressive game is also a fucking moron. You can have a really awesome level without making that really cool doorway, or that scary side path light up and glow to tell players where to go, as if they can't figure it out themselves. I've found this to be the case more often than not with newer games.
Well, I mean, like you said. It's so it helps appeal to a larger audience.

There are some extreme cases sure, where they're highlighting the ridiculously obvious, but in most cases [at least from my experiences] a simple guide doesn't hurt. I know I cannot be bothered playing some games where I have to spend 5-10 minutes in a room trying to figure out how the fuck to get out, RPGs have basically gone out the window for me. Don't have the patience for them anymore. They still make games (Dark Souls etc.) that cater to the very niche market of players who want shit to be difficult, but gaming would probably suffer if it wasn't dumbed down for the masses imo.

#8 Fredjones

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:55 AM

I was just talking about this with a friend last night and we basically came to the same conclusion you did: games today are generally made too easy, too patronizing, and too short. I think you put it quite well with "new games, for the most part, are played to be finished, rather than played to be beaten." There are very few modern games that actually pose a real challenge to anyone with a brain. Many of the games that are actually challenging are so by setting ridiculous standards (i.e. setting a game to "insane mode" gives you 5 bullets in your gun, 3x as many enemies and death in a single hit). Most often this forces you to rely on gimmicks within the game itself to complete it rather than giving you a series of challenging situations that allow you to learn and apply real strategies.

As far as graphics go, I have a hard time dealing with most 3D games that are older than the PS2/gamecube era. I don't mind playing the old 32/16bit games from the SNES/NES era though.

#9 thrudgel

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:01 AM

People are still playing diablo1, I see them online creating private games. I just beat hell/hell legit solo at level 34  <-- still good

I just hope not every isometric game like fallout turns into an FPS
What was the other... oh yea 'Syndicate'. Fuck I'd love to have an isometric syndicate remake with a squad of 4 androids carrying heavy weapons... but no they made it into a fucking FPS

Isometric to FPS Revivals are a real piss off to me. If i wanted to play an FPS i'd go back to dos prompt and run duke3d plutonium pack atomic edition. <-- still good

Some world of warcraft players even zoom in to FPS view and get roflstomped in Arena because they have such limited spacial intellegence

#10 Dkaioshin

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:03 AM

Maybe it's just me but I feel like with the 'older' games they tried to please the people playing more than the games do now.

Right now I feel like most game companies just stuff shit in as fast as possible to get the game out and get their money. Seems as if they spend a ~lot~ more time concerned with what the game looks like instead of the feel of it.

It's like the games aren't made with the same TLC as back in the day nahmean.


Can't really play my favorite games now (which happen to be old, mostly ps1/n64 rpgs and fighters) due to graphics as stated above, I just can't really stand it since I've become to used to good graphics.

Ideally for me they would re-make a lot of the old PS1/N64 games for newer consoles with insane graphics and I would go buy and enjoy all of my favorite games again. Unfortunately that will never happen. :/


edit; also for the record I am not a large fan of FPS games, which it seems like every game is these days.

edit; gw2 #1 newer game

Edited by Dkaioshin, 09 November 2011 - 03:05 AM.


#11 Reliuna

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:05 AM

I don't play any "new" games since I bought WoW, which I have now quit. NES SNES N64 emulators is the best. Have zero complaints about graphics as it's irrelevant to how much I will enjoy the game.

Also enjoying some old computer games such as Age of Empires 2, Diablo 2, Might and Magic 6 and 8, Heroes 3 etc etc.

The only new game I'm planning to buy and try out is Diablo 3.

Edited by Reliuna, 09 November 2011 - 03:06 AM.

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#12 Matisse

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:07 AM

I still play C&C (original + Tiberian Sun), original COD/COD:UO, and I'm currently re-playing the SC1 campaign. Hell, I am re-playing Pokemon Silver via Gameboy emulator, too. Sure, the graphics aren't great compared to now, but some of these games were incredible when they first came out -- and the gameplay itself is fantastic. I suppose graphics aren't as big a deal for me as others (Duckers, for instance (nothing wrong with that, just a preference)), whereas gameplay is the deciding factor. Having good memories of old games helps as well (playing C&C with my dad, playing COD:UO in online tournaments, etc.).

As far as guides go... the vast majority of games I play are FPS games in which the campaign is fairly straightforward, or RTS games where the campaign also needs little explanation (basically, find a strategy that works for the level/mission). I can only remember using a strategy guide for Company of Heroes. I haven't played many RPGs outside of WoW, which wasn't too complicated. Skyrim might change my feelings toward help guides, though.

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View PostBreadstick, on 07 September 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

some pickles are really good


#13 penancetoucher

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:12 AM

Just started playing Metal Slug again on the DS, and I can honestly say I'm having a blast playing it compared to most of the new games I've tried...
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#14 Theoh

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:24 AM

this is probably just me but it seemed like old games were harder.

#15 Kelustu

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:46 AM

Some games, yeah. Especially within the same titles. Zelda and Mario have definitely gotten easier over time, but other modern games aren't necessarily easy.
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#16 Feelian

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:50 AM

Spoiler

Edited by Feelian, 09 November 2011 - 03:51 AM.

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"u always run away with ur marins and the tanks do the rest it's soo easy that every noob can play that , but siege tanks will get nerfd and after that ... i think u have too think about a new tactic"

#17 Ellonija

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 04:12 AM

I'm always playing old RTS/NES/SNES/PSX games, they're still awesome + the music kicked ass back then  B)
Sound the charge into glory ride
Over the top of the vanquished pride

By moonlight we ride
Ten thousand side by side

#18 Matisse

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 05:05 AM

Mostly unrelated:


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View PostBreadstick, on 07 September 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

some pickles are really good


#19 God

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 05:36 AM

a lot of games just focus so much on the visuals that you end up with a shit story.
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#20 penancetoucher

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 06:23 AM

View PostEllonija, on 09 November 2011 - 04:12 AM, said:

I'm always playing old RTS/NES/SNES/PSX games, they're still awesome + the music kicked ass back then  B)

Age of Empires:Rise of Rome expansion pack had some fucking mean music.
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