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#1 Watlok

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 07:23 PM

Preface
This post isn't going to address the current blatant issue of them not resetting MMR.  We all know it must be done, and we all know they failed miserably by not doing it.  

This post is not completely serious.  I never expect this to be fully implemented because there are some pretty large issues with a system like this.   I am just having fun throwing a series of idea out there.  Some are much worse than others.

Problems with the Current Arena System
-Actively discourages you from playing by having risks outweigh the rewards at higher ratings
-The reward of conquest points was effectively removed from arenas in the 4.2 patch
-Seasons last too long
-Queue dodging and sniping are problematic when teams are not evenly balanced
-Win trading and rating selling are problematic given the format

Solving Problems
Fundamentally changing the structure of the arena system allows you to solve problems on that list.  The following list is going to sound crazy at first, but after making the list I will explain each change in more detail.

  • Abolish the idea of Team Rating deciding anything too important.  
  • Implement "Season Points" or "Pro Points" that are obtained by participating in weekly events.
  • Weekly events allow you to accumulate pro points.
  • Season duration shortened to ~8 weeks (no new gear every season, maybe every two)
  • Tournaments at the middle and end of a season, award many pro points
  • Pro Points determine season titles
  • You can queue arena normally as you can now, it just does count toward anything beyond being in a certain MMR range. Arena as we know it would be a way to practice or obtain conquest points and to "create" a team that can enter weekly events.

Weekly Events
Weekly events will run many times per week at different times.  Each arena team can only participate in a single weekly.  A weekly will have the team play a certain number of games and they will receive points as follows: +xx for participating, +x for a win, +x/2 for a loss.  Each successive game will be against another team with the same record, should there be an odd number of teams participating the best-off team will receive a bye (best-off probably determined by highest MMR or team rating.) A bye counts as a full win.  

Weekly events will reward weekly titles for having certain records, and there will be achievements associated with those titles.  These are not the same titles that arena has now.  They are merely a token of activity or participation.    

It is possible that weekly tournaments will be split in to tiers based on MMR range and pro points rewarded appropriately.  This requires some thought, and it might not be needed.  No situation should arise where a player would (or would be able to) intentionally tier themselves one lower. The purpose behind this is simply to let worse players win weeklies and play in a competitive environment (for them.)

Weekly events happen kind of often to cover different schedules, but each team can only participate once per week.

Tournaments
The idea behind a tournament is pretty simple.  You can't dodge in a tournament.  You can't MMR exploit your way to a title.  You place top 8/16/32 or you don't.  Pro points need a purpose, and tournaments are the main purpose for competitive players.

The structure for the tournament is debatable.  Lots of options.  Lots of choices.  They should not be single or double elimination.  It should be seeded based on pro points.  Something like the top n pro point teams get grandfathered in, everyone below plays x games and the top n from the pool play get moved to the actual bracket.

This should probably all be automated, unless using gm staff seems reasonable to Blizzard.  GM staff has its bonuses, but it has huge costs.  Automated has drawbacks (mostly relating to disconnects or exploiting), but it's a lot more feasible.  

Tournaments should run less frequently than weeklies, probably twice per season.

Tournaments should reward a large amount of team pro points for wins, participation, and placing high.  Enough to shake up the pro point ladder and encourage participation.

Tournaments should have a minimum pro point requirement, but it should be one that even low rated teams can achieve by the point in the season that tournaments run.  The idea is that a team that has existed for half of a season can participate, but a new team will have to wait until the next tournament.  

Pro Points
Reset a week or two after a season ends.  The idea for pro points for teams is to establish a "ranking" for teams.

Individuals are also rewarded a pro point currency for participating, all individuals are rewarded the same number of pro point currency, and individual pro points can be exchanged for some items. The items could be gimmicks, aesthetic, part of the season's pvp set, or have stronger value in the game (or no value.)  It doesn't matter a whole lot, but it would encourage some participation.  

Team pro points are gained from participating in a weekly with your team.  

Individual pro points cap after you participate in a set number of weeklies, independent of results.  The number of weeklies required to "cap" would depend on whether you want to encourage 1 per week or reward people for multiples.  It would also depend on the type of rewards provided.  Better items should mean less "forced" participation, more trivial items mean the cap is not as important.  

Teams
Each team can only participate in one weekly.  

A player can be on multiple teams, but each player can only enter a tournament once.  

A team can only play in weeklies or qualify if they have played a minimum of 25-50 games (making numbers up) and their uncertainty value is within a certain range.  There will be a visual indicator on each team to tell them whether they are in "Placement" or not.

Titles
Weekly little titles from weekly events.  They should be kind of mediocre titles but kind of cool.  Maybe have an extra one for participating in x consecutive events that goes away if you stop participating.  

Season titles based on pro point standing.

First place/top x titles based on tournament results.  (possibly up to 3 tournaments per bg to give multiple people a shot at r1)  These are the new serious business titles.  

Other Problems
Maximum match time should be changed significantly to make running an 8 game daily or multiple match tournament more viable.  Win condition of a draw should be implemented.  Damage done is the easiest.

It might be time to look in to having only select gear available in arenas.  With normal arena queues not determining a whole lot beyond being practice, a player entering an arena with some invalid pieces won't be too huge of a deal.  

A specific bracket would have to be championed for this to work.  This is the bracket that should be balanced around.  3v3 and 5v5 are both valid options.  Given that 3v3 requires less players and has a better healer:player ratio it's probably the best idea, but 5v5 is equally as acceptable.

Leave team point ladders in tact, give away titles for non-chosen (or all) brackets there.   Different titles from the pro point system.  No rank 1 titles on the old arena ladders.  You could make the titles slightly less cool versions of the pro point titles.

This is a massive development effort and the returns are questionable.  This post is also vague.

After Thoughts
Weekly event, pro point, and multiple teams idea are all things I think are cool to some extent.

Tournament idea is largely not fleshed out or feasible and it presents some fairly large issues given the arena format and the number of teams that could potentially participate.

welp just posting this for fun boys

Edited by Watlok, 07 September 2011 - 07:28 PM.


#2 ady

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 07:29 PM

A for effort

nothing is going to change
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#3 Thedream

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 07:32 PM

tldr


you're missing a major problem in arena


the lack of balance between classes

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#4 Watlok

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 07:43 PM

View Postady, on 07 September 2011 - 07:29 PM, said:

A for effort

nothing is going to change
I'd say it's more of a B- for effort.  Took about 40 minutes to go from "what if arenas were more like a sport" to that post.

Edited by Watlok, 07 September 2011 - 07:44 PM.


#5 cubas

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 07:54 PM

View PostThedream, on 07 September 2011 - 07:32 PM, said:

tldr


you're missing a major problem in arena


the lack of balance between classes

No he is not, this game has never been balanced and never will be. Something has to be done with PvP to get people back to the game.
:rogue: kidz

#6 Thedream

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 08:11 PM

View Postcubas, on 07 September 2011 - 07:54 PM, said:

No he is not, this game has never been balanced and never will be. Something has to be done with PvP to get people back to the game.

This is the worst state of balance wow has ever been in...obviously complete balance isn't possible, but they need to make the game fair before worrying about implementing stuff like this

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#7 cubas

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 08:39 PM

View PostThedream, on 07 September 2011 - 08:11 PM, said:

This is the worst state of balance wow has ever been in...obviously complete balance isn't possible, but they need to make the game fair before worrying about implementing stuff like this

I would say that class balance is not bad at all. Sure hunters need some help and lock shaman some nerfs, but overall id say its pretty good. Imo the only problem with s10 is the inactivity and no reason to que at all.
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#8 Motivation

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 09:00 PM

Making pro points a weekly thing and making arenas mean less would make even less people play.

my +'s
-bring back rating required gear, it gives you something to work toward, and with the current model(updated past season gear) you arent getting raped by gear curve anymore.
-more rewards and achievements. IE: mount for 2k, 2400, 2700 achievements etc. maybe just a ground mount.

basically arena needs more reward, why do people raid? because they get pieces of gear relative to how good they are at doing it aswell as chances and/or opportunity to get mounts from drops or achievements.

why was arena so popular in BC? because the gear was usable in raids.... i was in a sunwell guild and i cant tell you how many players were wearing brutal chests and weapons(if they had them) for a long time until sunflare/appollyon/krux etc dropped for them. people PVPed to PVE, and that brought the masses. I remember going into many many pugs where people were in full pvp gear almost gemming hit and the such until they got better gear, and it was usable. atm pvp gear is awful in pve and you pretty much have to have a pve blue in that slot for a epic pvp gear piece to be equivalent.

#9 wisdomcube

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 10:21 PM

View Postcubas, on 07 September 2011 - 08:39 PM, said:

I would say that class balance is not bad at all. Sure hunters need some help and lock shaman some nerfs, but overall id say its pretty good. Imo the only problem with s10 is the inactivity and no reason to que at all.

....retard
Ferals
frost mages
hpals not casting
dpriest not ooming or dying (against balanced teams)
rdruids suck
spriest nuke for too much
ret pallys too much burst/wog healing for too much

Resto shamans while having alot of good tools still get shit on in a deep freeze or whatever melee cleave your facing. Unless your obviously playing MLS or some shit.

View PostLawson, on 18 February 2011 - 06:52 AM, said:

where was everyone else tonight?  3 hours of No q's followed by 3 hours of getting farmed by Adept?

#10 Pawzz

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 11:19 PM

View Postwisdomcube, on 07 September 2011 - 10:21 PM, said:

....retard
Ferals
frost mages
hpals not casting
dpriest not ooming or dying (against balanced teams)
rdruids suck
spriest nuke for too much
ret pallys too much burst/wog healing for too much

Resto shamans while having alot of good tools still get shit on in a deep freeze or whatever melee cleave your facing. Unless your obviously playing MLS or some shit.

+ warlocks and shamans and of course


DUN DUN DUUUUUUNN



DKs on top of the list.

#11 hirtqt

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 12:01 AM

I think they should bring rating required gear back, not just changing color for t2 gear. 1800 for t1 weapons, 2200 for t2 weapons sounds amazing now.
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#12 Durotann

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 03:30 AM

Personally I've always thought having a weekly or monthly tournament would of been fun for Wow. I think it would of brought a fun way to earn some kind of extras, like cooler skinned weapons or gold prizes. I also like the idea of having a tournament to cap off the season for the top of the ladders to face off for some kind of extra reward. However, I don't think Blizzard is going to put much more into WoW arena. It's pretty much dead competitively and I don't think there's much they can do to revive it (aside from maybe deleting Death Knights :P). Anyway, not to be a Debbie Downer that's my two cents. I haven't played since the end of last season so maybe things have gotten better?

OH AND HAI WATLOK!

#13 ss2b24

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 03:40 AM

BC rating requirements = arena comes back to life :) + make PvE on the BC level too and more pve people would pvp

#14 Zngya

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 04:01 AM

On TBC it was even worse, druid strongest healer by far, hunter with his viper sting among other things.

#15 ss2b24

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 04:08 AM

where the hell did you see me say anything but bring back BC gear requirements?

#16 cubas

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 12:58 PM

View Postwisdomcube, on 07 September 2011 - 10:21 PM, said:

....retard
Ferals
frost mages
hpals not casting
dpriest not ooming or dying (against balanced teams)
rdruids suck
spriest nuke for too much
ret pallys too much burst/wog healing for too much

Resto shamans while having alot of good tools still get shit on in a deep freeze or whatever melee cleave your facing. Unless your obviously playing MLS or some shit.

Other seasons have been even worse lol.
:rogue: kidz

#17 RobbieW

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 02:28 PM

View Postcubas, on 08 September 2011 - 12:58 PM, said:

Other seasons have been even worse lol.

no
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#18 Lieto

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 05:40 PM

They need to add more cookies to arena i dont know how though.

Balance issue is irrelevant. Classes are going up and down so at some point people are happy. Also having 3-4 chars fix that for you.
Real problems arise:
a) you dont have much to achieve. Who needs 5 drakes when you can ride one?
B) your friends quit and you sit at 2500mmr and no one to play with.

Maybe we need scirmish pug arena with rewards :D
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#19 Rhordizledog

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 07:01 PM

View PostRobbieW, on 08 September 2011 - 02:28 PM, said:

no
O yes they have, s5 you couldn't go 2 ques without seeing a paladin and dk on the same team. Hell, the only strat was to kill the dk because the he could solo you both (i know most people on here can remember raise ally, the dk practically could summon a zoo on you...)>.> Is the game totally balanced? Hell no. But coming from someone who has played since the early days of wow, the game is way more balanced than "some" of the earlier seasons.

Sure the mmr reset messed up your r1 super glad push, its okay there is always next season since WoW wont be ending anytime soon.

My 2 cents.
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#20 cubas

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 07:58 PM

View PostRobbieW, on 08 September 2011 - 02:28 PM, said:

no
S5 pally (ret and retholy), dk, arcane mages, surv huntards
S6 pally (protholy), dk, brostorming warriors, prot warriors, beastcleave
S7 destro, ele - imo most balanced season up to the date
S8 locks, restodruids, ele, wizards everywhere
S9 dk, feral, restoshamans, priests being unuasable in arena (before 4.O6), few major patches during season, warrior damage, mmr exploiting...

Yes the balance used to be a lot worse.
:rogue: kidz




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