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Current state of dks


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#1 Redboww

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 05:55 AM

What is the current state of dks? I see a few high rated dk teams, but my buddy keeps telling me that dks are complete shit now, and are in need of a buff. I say dks are still really strong. Thoughts?

#2 GLopez

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:00 AM

As far as my experience with Shadowcleave goes, I think death knights are pretty good.

As Shadowcleave with a paladin, which started at a really, really low 2400 MMR, we have been going up pretty easily and beating every team we face most of the time.

The only thing that gives us trouble is melee cleaves, and that's only when they train my warlock, not me. Spell cleaves are a total joke to beat, though.

We'll have no problem pushing for gladiator, and I don't think any solid Shadowcleave should.

Edited by GLopez, 11 July 2011 - 06:07 AM.


#3 Belligerent

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:01 AM

Sounds like your frost was a high skilled frost dk. DKs are fine.

#4 kodah

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:11 AM

Unholy is "meh" and always will be.
Frost blows.
doo doo

#5 Zigenz

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:12 AM

They're fine, little easier to kill, but fine. Your friend prob was just a frost hero, he'll get over it.
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#6 Fearful

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:19 AM

We die to double melee, but so does everyone else. The melee totem pole works something like this at the moment.

God Tier
Rogues/Ferals

Very Strong
Warriors/DKs

Mediocre
Ret paladins

Shit Tier
Enh Shamans

#7 Welgard

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:25 AM

View PostGLopez, on 11 July 2011 - 06:00 AM, said:

The only thing that gives us trouble is melee cleaves, and that's only when they train my warlock, not me. Spell cleaves are a total joke to beat, though.

A good MLS spell cleave should have no issues at all with shadowcleave, fortunately there aren't an abundance of phenomenal mages though.

Feral/caster/x teams have been dropping DKs fairly frequently lately in just the duration of an untrinketable cyclone on your healer.  RMP still eats DKs as well.  Other than that though, DKs are fairly survivable in 3s.  2s is where you really notice some major survivability issues, though 2s doesn't matter.

#8 GLopez

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:29 AM

RMP may give some trouble in the short-term, but I think good play should get every death knight past the double Smoke Bomb and be viable for the rest of the match. Just make sure to not use a trinket or IBF outside of Smoke Bombs.

Feral druids can be really rough because instant Cyclone is the best peel in the game, but I don't think you should die in a Cyclone on a healer. Again, just make sure you have a defensive cooldown, like Lichborne, Death Pact, IBF, AMS or even Gnaw, or your healer has a cooldown for right after the Cyclone falls off.

The biggest problem I think I've seen with a lot of death knights is that they have been basically wasting defensive cooldowns, typically with the justification of staying or going offensive. Death knights shouldn't be doing too much of that anymore.

Edited by GLopez, 11 July 2011 - 06:33 AM.


#9 Twocat

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:30 AM

View PostFearful, on 11 July 2011 - 06:19 AM, said:

We die to double melee, but so does everyone else. The melee totem pole works something like this at the moment.

God Tier
Rogues/Ferals

Very Strong
Warriors/DKs

Mediocre
Ret paladins

Shit Tier
Enh Shamans
I see what you did there.
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#10 Rimathil

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:40 AM

From what i've seen, I would almost rate DK's lower.

Might be because most decent rogue comps shit all over dks with garrote/kidney in a bomb though.
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#11 gunsnmoses124

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:40 AM

doing pretty good, cept the times where i'll eat 80k in 2 seconds with ams down against shatterplay, or in ROV when i made it to los only to have it go down vs boomkin/mage/disc. Kitty cleaves riding my dick even in blood presence i get major chopped. deff not as easy as frost.

#12 luddyjr369

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:47 AM

DK's are honestly fine and the one good dk I play with always talks about how DK's are good, and require a brain to play unholy compared to frost. If you bitch about unholy your a frost hero

#13 Redboww

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:48 AM

i think they need to tone down the amount of armor penetration rogues/warriors have. such a joke that those classes have the easiest time killing a plate class. this game is fucked up in so many areas

#14 Primius

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:51 AM

View PostGLopez, on 11 July 2011 - 06:29 AM, said:

RMP may give some trouble in the short-term, but I think good play should get every death knight past the double Smoke Bomb and be viable for the rest of the match. Just make sure to not use a trinket or IBF outside of Smoke Bombs.

Feral druids can be really rough because instant Cyclone is the best peel in the game, but I don't think you should die in a Cyclone on a healer. Again, just make sure you have a defensive cooldown, like Lichborne, Death Pact, IBF, AMS or even Gnaw, or your healer has a cooldown for right after the Cyclone falls off.

The biggest problem I think I've seen with a lot of death knights is that they have been basically wasting defensive cooldowns, typically with the justification of staying or going offensive. Death knights shouldn't be doing too much of that anymore.

When I think of shaman, warlock, and holy paladin. I have to ask myself why on earth would they want to play with a DK...

I mean even shadowcleave is pretty meh.  Yeah it can do ok but it has nothing at all to do with the DK. It has to do with Shaman/Warlock is overpowered.  WLS, MLS, RLS vastly superior to Shadowcleave.  TSG is even crap now and you would be better off replacing the DK with a Feral Druid.  

Death Knights should be equally viable, and as powerful as Warriors. Our class should not be bottom feeding, to other classes that have multiple specs they can play.  I just don't see how DKs are fine when there is no comp you wouldn't be better off replacing them with someone else.

Survival against melee is far to weak currently and/or melee cleaves are far to strong.

#15 Fearful

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:52 AM

How are we worse than warriors?

#16 Primius

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:52 AM

View PostRedboww, on 11 July 2011 - 06:48 AM, said:

i think they need to tone down the amount of armor penetration rogues/warriors have. such a joke that those classes have the easiest time killing a plate class. this game is fucked up in so many areas

I don't think feral druids have any ARP abilities and I got hit for a 30k FB today in arena while in blood presence and wearing 4151 resilience...

http://oi54.tinypic.com/kdtsw3.jpg

#17 Primius

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:55 AM

View PostFearful, on 11 July 2011 - 06:52 AM, said:

How are we worse than warriors?

Warriors are far and away superior to DKs right now. They do just as much damage, they have burst, and they have a ton of utility and a array of really good defensive cooldowns, and better CC.

The only thing Unholy has over arms is positional control, and even that is over rated IMO. My only point is that claiming we are just fine because we can run with the most overpowered combo in Cata (Warlock/Shaman), doesn't mean very much especially when that combo would be better off with pretty much any other class.

#18 Redboww

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:57 AM

View PostPrimius, on 11 July 2011 - 06:52 AM, said:

I don't think feral druids have any ARP abilities and I got hit for a 30k FB today in arena while in blood presence and wearing 4151 resilience...

http://oi54.tinypic.com/kdtsw3.jpg

Yeah, I dont know how to fix this game anymore, tbh. All melee damage needs to be toned down

#19 GLopez

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 07:18 AM

View PostFearful, on 11 July 2011 - 06:19 AM, said:

We die to double melee, but so does everyone else. The melee totem pole works something like this at the moment.

God Tier
Rogues/Ferals

Very Strong
Warriors/DKs

Mediocre
Ret paladins

Shit Tier
Enh Shamans
I mostly agree with this. The only melee classes that are above death knights right now are rogues and feral druids, and it's not that large of a gap.

Really, good death knights should be confident going into this season. If you're good and deserving of high ratings, you'll get high ratings.

Edited by GLopez, 11 July 2011 - 07:18 AM.


#20 Welgard

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 07:18 AM

View PostGLopez, on 11 July 2011 - 06:29 AM, said:

Feral druids can be really rough because instant Cyclone is the best peel in the game, but I don't think you should die in a Cyclone on a healer. Again, just make sure you have a defensive cooldown, like Lichborne, Death Pact, IBF, AMS or even Gnaw, or your healer has a cooldown for right after the Cyclone falls off.

Well the issue is that no single one of those cooldowns is enough to stay alive.  You'll be getting bursted in a maim while healer is cycloned, so you end up blowing trinket and AMS to live, and they can do the same thing 20 seconds later when you can't trinket the maim, and get full shattered with a feral shredding you.

The thing that makes MLS so difficult for a DK to play against is that the snares really can't be dealt with after the lock finally gets UA up.  Unless you play with a paladin, you're going to be spending a very significant portion of the match stuck in some kind of nova, and typically get forced to pillar and reset, possibly with a deathgrip on lock if he overextends from his port.  If they play it right, the DK really can't connect with any of the targets once AMS is down.  Granted, I would argue that MLS is harder to play than shadowcleave though.




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