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I hate this question.. but 17/44 or 7/54?

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#1 Iceweaver

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 04:33 AM

I am so torn over this I cant sleep (sort of).

Putting emphasis on 3s instead of 5s for this topic, is it worth it to lose your imp to get impact + some nice ice additions.

And another question, those that use the impact, I assume you are also using Molten Armor, do you miss the random frostbite procs where you can a free ice lance of 1k+ dmg?

Things I use imp CS for in 3s:

When are are going up against a priest and my warrior is beating on him and he is around 40%.  I throw out an imp CS, he cant do anything for 4 seconds, 4 seconds later he triest to heal probalby around 10% gets pummeled and is killed.  

When casters are zerging down our healer and he gets pretty low, throw an imp CS on one (maybe a mage) and try to sheep the other (maybe a lock).

When its 3v3 and we arent aiming healer, I will throw an imp CS on a healer even while not casting just to make sure he cant do anything, then 3 seconds later sheep him.

Please, someone that uses impact make me switch!  I really would love to, i fucking hate wasting 17 pts to get imp CS, I just feel like I cant live without it!

#2 Tyveris

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 05:15 AM

I still think the 15 prereq points in arcane are better than most people give them credit for. They certainly aren't great but eh. I tried 0/7/54 for a while, and honestly, with as many druid healers as I'm seeing in 2s and 3s, imp cs becomes incredibly powerful.

While impact is wonderful, there is a chance in a game it won't go off, but you can plan to use imp cs as you see fit. Uses I've foudn to be great:

* Stop a NS heal
* Save someone from a SWD, pom pyro FB, or Shadowburn when they were low
* Guarantee you can land a poly on the opposing mage (opening or at the end to drink/eat)
* I've even imp CS'd to get 4 secs of evocation against another mage which ended up winning me the fight

You basically remove a potential game changing ability by spec'ing 45+ into frost, and I don't think it is worth it.

#3 eXc4L

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 02:46 PM

17/44, currently is the best mage spec for pvp around. The imp cs is more valuable than anything you can possibly get in the fire tree while maintaining heavy frost.  There is no other way that is guaranteed to stop hot's and instant casts other than imp cs.

#4 Haet

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 08:45 PM

Imp CS is great for duels, but its not even that good against druids unless you chain silence with someone else. 4 seconds is not very long at all. Most of the time  CS is a waste if you dont time it to get the full 8 seconds. CS cyclone, how many good druids get to a high rating w/o useing cyclone? not many.

If you use a focus macro to counterspell instead of standing there looking at someone waiting for them to cast you will have to worry about them stepping heals much less.

And all of that marginal gain for at the cost of what?

impact = molten armor which is better than frost armor because how often in an arena that matters is something beating on you w/o BoF? Poeple that are stunned also cant attack meaning you can sheep them w/o interruption. molten armor also provides defense against casters, and 3% crit so even when your not being FFd you are benefitting.

frost channeling is better than clear casting, 15% > 10 as well as it affects non damage spells like frost barrier.

Winters chill is incredibly underrated. Amazing for sheeping. Its hard enough for a paladin to get off detect magic, try 1-2 stacks of WC as well. And WC is applied when you Fnova too, so its fairly common to go to sheep someone and they already have a stack or 2 from aoe. It provides cover against nova/snare cleansing. And it gives you crit...

skipping piercing ice is an obvious loss

And the other minor frost talents you would be missing out for imp CS like perma frost, imp CoC, Frozen core, frost warding, or whatever you choose, seem to be enough to outweigh things like magic absorbtion, arcane fortitude, and anything first tier arcane.

#5 Twisty

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Posted 19 August 2007 - 07:45 AM

I agree with Haet, but both specs can work, really. I never use cs unless they're casting. It does suck for dueling other mages, but, impact /mage armor is awesome, especially if you're like me and have a nice lightning capacitator (all my posts seem to have that damn trinket. :P)

Whatever you prefer, if silencing a target is incorporated into your playstyle, go for it. I don't think either variation will hurt/help your team that much.

#6 Tyveris

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Posted 19 August 2007 - 02:22 PM

Haet said:

frost channeling is better than clear casting, 15% > 10 as well as it affects non damage spells like frost barrier.
Why does everyone say this? You can get both: http://www.wowhead.c...obZZVVGcofxobqt

Marginal gain? Imp Missiles is excellent for chasing runners or for ensuring a kill as someone tries to LoS you around a pillar. Clearcasting and magic absorption = even more mana efficiency.

Impact is great, I do miss it, but 5 seconds of root can mean an ice lance kill when I'm out of mana. I don't skip piercing ice, really curious as to what you choose for 17/0/44.

Seriously, did you just mention Frozen Core as a talent we would be missing out on? this is hands down the worst mage talent in the frost tree.

Link whatever impact build you put together and compare it to my 17/0/44 build and recompare.

#7 Mounsif

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Posted 19 August 2007 - 04:22 PM

I agree with Tyveris's point that Imp CS is very useful for druid teams in 2v2/3v3.  

CS's are pretty easy to juke in 2s/3s imo, so I usually just fake cast a cyclone, then I cyclone again after the mage misses CS.  

However, when I get hit with an imp CS, I usually am forced to shift into bear in order to feral charge a frostbolt, then bash, then I cyclone.  

If a mage/warlock team in 2v2 were to coordinate a counterspell-silence on me, followed by a death coil, then a felguard intercept / felhunter CS, then a polymorph from the mage, its pretty much about 12 seconds of me not casting anything.

#8 Haet

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Posted 19 August 2007 - 10:08 PM

Tyveris said:

Link whatever impact build you put together and compare it to my 17/0/44 build and recompare.


The talents i mentioned were talents ive seen other people skip or take, obviously you dont have to skip all of those talents to get imp CS.

#9 Tyveris

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 02:23 AM

No, I meant link whatever 17/0/44 build (through Wowhead) so that I could see the comparison you were making.

Comparing my build with yours:

Your Build:

* You get 5/5 winter's chill => Nice for dispels, but not totally necessary.
* Elemental precision, 1% -mana cost (negligable), +1% chance to hit (Wasted if you are at the hit cap)
* +35% damage on CoC, decent but on one very mana heavy spell. I noticed only 200 more damage.
* Impact - Nice for fireblast and the MA procs.
* Permafrost - My snares rarely last 9 seconds so 12 doesn't make much of a diff. I run with a rogue on all my teams and it seems like the only classes I need to snare can basically teleport towards me anyways. Plus I run with a rogue so his poisons always overwrite mine. Freedom nerf could cause this to become more useful, dunno.

My Build:

* Imp Missles - Great for runners, great for interrupting an opponents cast, great for guarenteed dps while a pet is on you.
* Clearcasting - Mana efficiency.
* Absorption - Mana efficiency, incredibly powerful with a SR set.
* Added armor - From arcane fort and from using ice armor.
* Imp CS - I already mentioned why it is wonderful, but I've had countless situations where it can be a player controlled game changer. Everything else you pick up with deep frost and impact requires a proc or something to happen, it isn't controlled. One more I forgot to mention is at the end of the game mage vs mage imp CS is a huge advantage.

Anyways, that is why I prefer 17/0/44 after playing with both. Again, I play with a rogue so the need for stuns and snares is less of an issue.

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