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#41 Arkinia

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:42 AM

[ tl;dr: haste doesnt really affect damage; crit has a chance to be completely wasted; mastery means potential for monsterously massive shatters unobtainable through other stats (think of mastery as basically more spellpower exclusively for your shatters, in fact I think mastery scales better than int for shatters assuming they crit, not 100% sure but like 60%) ]

The way I see it, when choosing a stat, I want to know which stat is going to affect my damage the most. This seems to be a common concern of many mages. The most important damage you do is your shatters, you want them to draw cooldowns, turn the tables, get kills, all that jazz.

Now each secondary stat affects your shatters in its own way! Haste might let you get an extra frostbolt or ice lance off into that deep freeze which can be very devastating, but traditionally the most common shatters you are going to land are a single frostbolt and a single ice lance. Haste doesn't increase the damage of either of those so while it might very well be a useful stat, you are basically giving up clearly superior secondary stats in terms of damage.

I choose mastery because of this: if you stood turreting frostbolts into a dummy, shattering on fingers procs, the math might say crit is a superior stat and even in arena this might hold true due to the amount of shatters that crit or don't crit. But realistically 100% crit chance on shatters isn't obtainable right now and so the idea of "I stack crit so my shatters don't not crit" doesn't hold a lot of water to me. When that one shatter doesn't crit when I stack crit I don't reassure myself statistically the next shatter should crit, I fucking rage that all those gems, enchants and reforges into crit rating just did nothing for me, like I just literally removed half my gear and that fucking DK gets live for a 3rd AMS.

Mastery on the other hand is guaranteed to benefit your shatters. You can still crit of course and when you do it benefits them greatly and feels much more rewarding as oppose to rightfully due. Think winning the lottery vs. cashing a paycheck.

Thanks for reading I hope I made sense
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#42 Feralswipes

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 04:19 PM

How does mastery scale better than crit I dont get it. 1% crit is 3% crit against frozen target, plus of course that 1% crit for everythign else. 1 mastery is 2.5 (less than 3)% dmg against frozen target. Last I remember %dmg and %crit scale equally. So don't you actually get more out of crit?


in a raid? yes

in arena? no

mastery makes u do more damage per shatter, simple as that. crit allows the shatters to take place, nothing more
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#43 Charred

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 06:59 PM

Lol what? Where the hell did you read this?


Damage is better than crit - currently not by much, but overall still better.


Currently, for PvE:

Int -> Hit -> SP -> Crit -> Haste -> Mastery

Overall, the concept is virtually the same for PvP, with Haste and Mastery being about even with each other. Crit is still the more desired stat to a point, where Mastery then becomes better.

Example: You have 20% base crit and play PMR (giving you 25%) - 30% from the Frostbolt glyph pretty much ensures you'll always crit Frostbolts, and 75% as Icelance is very acceptable. Rather than going from 75% to 78%, you can increase your damage by another 2.5%

People at the moment are reforging their crit to Mastery and then running PMR/PMF with the HAT/LotP crit bonus because it's still acceptable damage. 60% crit is a reasonable chance, and having an extra 30% damage on that is more than a worthwhile gamble.

It's just more of a personal luck-of-the-draw playstyle. Technically, with 75% crit Frostbolts and 60% crit Icelances, you're going to crit more often than not, and having 30% damage is a huge damage buff.



So in essence, you can play with a really good crit chance with solid damage, or a good chance to crit with ridiculous burst.


Haste is way more than just an ordinary offensive stat in arena.
How on earth you can even as much as mention the comparison of PVE

certain haste levels allow more dmg in a deep, more CC, faster globals, less spells los'd, etc

Haste offers so much more than just being another offensive stat like crit, int or mastery, hence why it was so popular ever since S3
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#44 Granter

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:33 PM

Are people simply saying this instead of RMP just to piss people off?

so lets go threw this again


a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t

it's mpr who ever said rmp or anything els is just retard, follow the fucking alphabet
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#45 Spinmove

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 11:08 PM

RMP is more pleasing to say for the majority (if not all) of people... you can't really argue that because the letters roll of your tongue a lot easier and fluidly.

try saying RMP repeatedly and then switch to the other versions (MPR, PMR, etc) and you'll notice the difference.
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#46 Tyumbra

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 01:19 AM

RMP is more pleasing to say for the majority (if not all) of people... you can't really argue that because the letters roll of your tongue a lot easier and fluidly.

try saying RMP repeatedly and then switch to the other versions (MPR, PMR, etc) and you'll notice the difference.


Saying RMP is harder than saying PMR.


Haste is way more than just an ordinary offensive stat in arena.
How on earth you can even as much as mention the comparison of PVE

certain haste levels allow more dmg in a deep, more CC, faster globals, less spells los'd, etc

Haste offers so much more than just being another offensive stat like crit, int or mastery, hence why it was so popular ever since S3


Because it's, more or less, the truth. Both Mastery and Haste are relatively the same in terms of usefulness. I prefer Haste - I like getting faster sheeps, frostbolts, and having faster GCDs. Some people prefer Mastery - a lot of times they're coordinating and bursting someone down while in a DF.

The usefulness comes out about the same. But it's still far behind Int - Int stacking is still the superior way to increase your damage.
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#47 Spinmove

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 01:45 AM

Saying RMP is harder than saying PMR.


it's not though :)
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#48 Gabbit

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 07:23 PM

If you were running priest warrior mage what would you go?
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#49 Spinmove

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 08:57 PM

probably crit since wmp trains 1 target the whole game
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#50 Tempestlol

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 02:50 AM

so lets go through this again


a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t

it's mpr who ever said rmp or anything els is just retard, follow the fucking alphabet



It's a Rogue Mage combo with a Priest healer.


RMP

Arenajunkies has really important discussions these days.

Edited by Tempestlol, 17 July 2011 - 02:51 AM.

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#51 Watlok

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 04:28 AM

PVP stats don't really follow PVE stats because PVP stats are all about what will let you do the most damage when it counts. I'm going to use WotLK as an example, in WotLK you stacked haste like crazy even though it was garbage in pve beacuse you'd gcd cap with cds and spell power was more important. It let you control a lot better, it increased your damage output when it mattered, and it gave you the mobility you needed to keep doing damage. It let you be a threat outside of IV or IV+Bloodlust cds.

In PVP you aren't fishing for FoF procs with Frostbolt. Your damage is entirely around shatter windows from other abilities. FoF doesn't even work with FB anymore, and unless you are playing with an spriest or lock there's no dispel protection on your novas.

In PVP a mage GENERALLY isn't looking for highest overall damage output over the course of a game. They are looking for the biggest burst to get a kill during a window they can actually do damage. In most comps you will be better off with crit for consistency or mastery after a point. If you can setup kill attempts often enough (like as often as df cd or pet nova cd) then mastery is going to be a lot more appealing, if you can only setup kill attempts every few minutes then crit is going to be more appealing because you don't want to screw it up UNLESS you absolutely need the damage from mastery to be guaranteed a kill. Int probably trumps both to an extent, but it depends on values.

Haste couldn't get to high enough values to matter in S9. The game isn't about casting like it was in WotLK, and spamming lance a tiny bit faster won't get you more FoF procs or a better chance of landing a kill in an important window. Haste isn't inherently bad though. Faster GCDs let you do more things, but the question is do those things matter? Whenever I play mage I get the impression most things I do hardly matter compared to WotLK. I'd lean toward statting toward what I can do that does matter, and smashing faces in a burst window is something cata mage can do.

anyway nothing I said about cata in this post is necessarily true, I haven't really played since january, but the idea behind stats is that what matters in pve doesn't really translate to pvp

If you did theorycrafting around actual pvp conditions, besides the math being a lot more complicated and requiring some clever simplifications, you'd find massively different stat values.

Mastery being good in pvp for mages should be no surprise once you ditch the mindset of previous expansions.

Edited by Watlok, 17 July 2011 - 04:38 AM.

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#52 Granter

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 06:26 AM

It's a Rogue Mage combo with a Priest healer.


RMP

Arenajunkies has really important discussions these days.


you are so terribly wrong, since when have mage/rogue ever had any other good healer than priest....

if you followed your logic it would be that you play mage+priest and you are looking for a 2nd dps wich is basicly anything between warlock/rogue/feral/warrior and in this case rogue, so MPR.

dont even argue against this
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#53 hello

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 06:50 AM

Here's why mastery can be good in pvp for those who haven't figured it out.

Stacking crit will give you more damage overall and more damage on target dummies. It will make your shatters a lot more likely to crit.

Mastery will make your shatters way bigger if they happen to crit. Though the chance of the shatter critting is less than the crit stacking mage, mastery makes it possible to do massive shatter combos if the crits happen.

Burst is a big deal in pvp so the ability to do a huge but less consistent burst can be beneficial.
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#54 Tyumbra

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 07:13 AM

PVP stats don't really follow PVE stats because PVP stats are all about what will let you do the most damage when it counts. I'm going to use WotLK as an example, in WotLK you stacked haste like crazy even though it was garbage in pve beacuse you'd gcd cap with cds and spell power was more important. It let you control a lot better, it increased your damage output when it mattered, and it gave you the mobility you needed to keep doing damage. It let you be a threat outside of IV or IV+Bloodlust cds.

In PVP you aren't fishing for FoF procs with Frostbolt. Your damage is entirely around shatter windows from other abilities. FoF doesn't even work with FB anymore, and unless you are playing with an spriest or lock there's no dispel protection on your novas.

In PVP a mage GENERALLY isn't looking for highest overall damage output over the course of a game. They are looking for the biggest burst to get a kill during a window they can actually do damage. In most comps you will be better off with crit for consistency or mastery after a point. If you can setup kill attempts often enough (like as often as df cd or pet nova cd) then mastery is going to be a lot more appealing, if you can only setup kill attempts every few minutes then crit is going to be more appealing because you don't want to screw it up UNLESS you absolutely need the damage from mastery to be guaranteed a kill. Int probably trumps both to an extent, but it depends on values.

Haste couldn't get to high enough values to matter in S9. The game isn't about casting like it was in WotLK, and spamming lance a tiny bit faster won't get you more FoF procs or a better chance of landing a kill in an important window. Haste isn't inherently bad though. Faster GCDs let you do more things, but the question is do those things matter? Whenever I play mage I get the impression most things I do hardly matter compared to WotLK. I'd lean toward statting toward what I can do that does matter, and smashing faces in a burst window is something cata mage can do.

anyway nothing I said about cata in this post is necessarily true, I haven't really played since january, but the idea behind stats is that what matters in pve doesn't really translate to pvp

If you did theorycrafting around actual pvp conditions, besides the math being a lot more complicated and requiring some clever simplifications, you'd find massively different stat values.

Mastery being good in pvp for mages should be no surprise once you ditch the mindset of previous expansions.


The majority of your post is so full of fail it hurts me. If you aren't trying to do as much damage as possible, then you're doing it wrong. There are different ways to do that, however:

Mastery: You hit harder when they're frozen (i.e. Novas when they don't break, FoF procs, and DF)
Haste: You can sheep the healer faster + faster Frostbolts


If you're not casting Frostbolt right now, then you're really playing wrong.

It's quite easy to stack up to 20% Haste right now, and last season be at 17.5%. With IV your frostbolts are down to 1.4. And that's not including if you want absolute max speed, in which case getting that on-use haste trinket from BoT was an amazing idea to pump out 1 second Frostbolts. That's not only effectively double damage, but you can get 4 Frostbolts in a DF'd target.

If that's not burst damage, then I don't know what is.
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#55 laiik

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 12:14 PM

I have not yet played my mage this season, but i do not understand why suddenly everyone is goin for mastery and 'if stars align' play-style. Never liked procs, never like to be dependent on some random gay ass shit that i cannot control. Will prob spec like previous season with a bit more haste. I am loving that it scales with every gcd, while mastery only with fb il.
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#56 Watlok

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 05:13 PM

The majority of your post is so full of fail it hurts me. If you aren't trying to do as much damage as possible, then you're doing it wrong. There are different ways to do that, however:

Mastery: You hit harder when they're frozen (i.e. Novas when they don't break, FoF procs, and DF)
Haste: You can sheep the healer faster + faster Frostbolts


If you're not casting Frostbolt right now, then you're really playing wrong.

It's quite easy to stack up to 20% Haste right now, and last season be at 17.5%. With IV your frostbolts are down to 1.4. And that's not including if you want absolute max speed, in which case getting that on-use haste trinket from BoT was an amazing idea to pump out 1 second Frostbolts. That's not only effectively double damage, but you can get 4 Frostbolts in a DF'd target.

If that's not burst damage, then I don't know what is.

I pretty much just said you should go for max damage in a pvp situation. Which isn't the same as pve (which your post also agreed with.)

How often you are actually able to cast frost bolt depends on the comp you run and what you are playing against. It always has. That's what I meant by stat priority is a lot more complicated in pvp. Stacking haste in S9 with pure pvp gear sucked. I geared haste and switched back rather quickly despite wanting faster gcds/cast times more than anything in the entire world of warcraft, but I also played warr/mage/x before the warr buffs so my ability to cast was pretty limited against some of the popular teams.

Mastery is taking off in popularity because your shatters (a df or fof procs) are guaranteed burst, and mastery will guarantee a kill if your crit rate is high enough. Having more haste doesn't guarantee a kill or damage at a meaningful time. If you can cast a few frost bolts when no real pressure is going out but have to juke interrupts when it matters that's going to be a problem.

ps yeah I blow at cata mage and am out of touch with current play, my post wasn't any specific advice, just a mindset for figuring out gearing, also my gearing is very outdated on my mage because it's from 4.0.x (~january)

edit: and you are geared identically to me... with similar stats... just slightly higher because you have better gear, only real difference is I am still gemmed hybrid resil in spots

Edited by Watlok, 17 July 2011 - 06:55 PM.

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#57 Blu3cr0ss

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 10:02 PM

If you play with a rogue or a feral, you shouldn't hessitate and go for mastery, you'll get alot more damage out of that.
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#58 Tankz

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 12:15 AM

I have not yet played my mage this season, but i do not understand why suddenly everyone is goin for mastery and 'if stars align' play-style. Never liked procs, never like to be dependent on some random gay ass shit that i cannot control. Will prob spec like previous season with a bit more haste. I am loving that it scales with every gcd, while mastery only with fb il.


Because when you use your amazing "procalot" orb, you can start spamming instant 25-30k's during cd's every second.

masery is a really good stat.
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wat is dis game

#59 Tempestlol

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 09:01 AM

you are so terribly wrong, since when have mage/rogue ever had any other good healer than priest....

if you followed your logic it would be that you play mage+priest and you are looking for a 2nd dps wich is basicly anything between warlock/rogue/feral/warrior and in this case rogue, so MPR.

dont even argue against this



I don't have to argue no one other than you has called it MPR.


Every single comp name that doesn't have something fancy as a name always groups the 2 dps together then the healer.

WLS
RLS
WMP
MLS
MLD
WLD
LSD (1)
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#60 cubas

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 10:04 AM

itt: fail trolls calling rmp somehow retardedly
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