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[Blizzard] Arena Tournament - Blizzard Feedback: 5/5/08


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#21 Saracens

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 03:31 PM

Mionee said:

S4 + T6 (except azzinoth and sunwell T6)

and Momento obviously.

#22 Tyveris

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 04:08 PM

"QuoteFromPM" said:

Alright, I would like to start off with something I hadn't seen up already, but I feel as though something needs to be done about perception, either Blizzard should give it a small nerf, or think of a different way to incorporate a similar move. Every single team that wants to be serious pretty much has a human rogue, and even if they don't have a rogue, they have at least one human. All the best horde teams from live servers even rolled alliance just to get perception, because in those rmp mirror fights, getting the other rogue with a sap could very likely win you the game. Also, I guess I am moving on to rogues, and mainly armor penetration. I personally feel as though rogues don't need any armor penetration at all on their s3 and s4 gear, they are doing just fine in the tourney destroying people wearing pve gear. If they are specced into sub they get 500 some armor penetration, and as long as they know how to incorporate EA, they can easily have reduce a target's armor enough, especially with a faerie fire up too, that they really do not need armor penetration at all, and I am personally glad they don't have it for this tourney or it would be completely ridiculous. As stated before, the whole option for pve gear is actually a bit unsettling, and I also feel it should also be pvp gear only in the tourney. That's about all, ty.
Someone sent me this through PM. His two points were PvE gear shouldn't be allowed and Perception has become required for a lot of teams, especially RMP mirrors.

#23 Tyveris

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 04:10 PM

Some other things I was thinking relating to the armory and rankings.

1) The armory needs to be fixed between practice rounds. Not knowing your real stance is frustrating and to be frank, unacceptable in a tournament situation.
2) There should be a Real-Time in game display of the ladder, or at least the top twenty teams so you know up until the last moment where you stand. It would also be nice if it showed whether or not the teams were online and when they last queued.

#24 Ocius

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 05:44 PM

The big thing that the tournament has emphasized are racials.

Primarily... Perception. Perception alone is one of the major reasons Druid teams aren't more represented - at least on US realms (haven't been following euro). A double melee team with a human rogue can rip a Druid apart before the Druid's team even gets to play. RMP can do similar, but since the Warlock is often a better (i.e. safer) target for them it isn't as much of an issue in that match-up. Regardless, the point is that Perception literally changes the outcome of the game in a way that no other racial can. It opens up opportunities that wouldn't normally be there (i.e. kill the druid while he's still trying to stealth into a good position) and necessitates that any team with a Rogue have it to prevent theirs from getting Sapped against other Rogue teams.

Some other racials that have been shown to be disproportionately strong (at least in the 3s environment):
Priests: Stoneform, Desperate Prayer, Chastise. There's a reason 90% of Priests are Dwarf. They get the best true racial for the class (remove Viper Sting/Rogue Poisons) as well as the best Priest racials. Chastise can create a lot of situations that wouldn't exist without it: Forcing a Druid to use a GCD to shift away from them, forcing another healer to take a Mana Burn, etc... And Desperate Prayer is obviously incredible, specially when combined with Stoneform (full stack of Wound and in trouble = Stoneform + Prayer).
Druid: War Stomp. The only reason this is so strong for Druids is because we don't need to drink much in 3s and having what amounts to a free "out" every 2 mins is crucial. Specially against human Rogues.
Warlocks: Orc Stun Resist and Blood Frenzy. Stun Resist makes Rogue comps slightly easier 15% of the time, as a resisted Kidney Shot can severely limit their ability to burst you down. And Blood Frenzy clearing a 5 stack of Wound, allowing Abolish Poison to instantly remove Crippling and allow kiting, is incredible.


The only other major complaint I have is about PvE gear. I recognize that some classes "need" PvE gear to compete. Paladins, for example, I understand allowing access to PvE gear (though I think most would prefer if the Paladin PvP gear was changed to be desirable...). The majority of other classes do not need it, and therefore should not have access to it. Small things like Trinkets, Idols, and maybe a few Rings should be allowed; but PvE gear on the scale that it is currently allowed on the TR is ridiculous for an Arena tournament.

Oh, and add in the missing enchants. 15 Agility to gloves, 24 AP to bracers, etc...
And the Honor Resil/Healing trinket. Even though very few would use it, the fact that PvE gear was allowed in absurd amounts and yet they overlooked an Honor trinket is a little silly.

Edited by Ocius, 07 May 2008 - 08:48 PM.


#25 Quincy

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 09:28 PM

make the tournament open to all countries (so just to all wow subscribers)I think it would allow more competition since there are are good players left out now.

#26 Bruaigne

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 09:32 PM

Quincy said:

make the tournament open to all countries (so just to all wow subscribers)I think it would allow more competition since there are are good players left out now.

This isn't possible due to some country's gambling laws

#27 Earrl

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Posted 08 May 2008 - 10:09 AM

I think Ocius hit it on the head with his post. I definitely think that Perception is WAY too strong. Every team is rolling around with Humans. Human Rogues, Human Mages, Human Warriors, Human Paladins...they're everywhere.

Certainly have to do a better job itemizing certain classes here for the Arena with their Arena Gear. Paladins are majorly lacking (might need to take a look at some talents/abilities there too honestly) in terms of prowess when it comes to gear. Rogues are also certainly ridiculous when they can itemize optimally, and their talents/abilities allow this...these certainly need to be looked at.
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#28 Sylo

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Posted 08 May 2008 - 05:24 PM

Earrl said:

Certainly have to do a better job itemizing certain classes here for the Arena with their Arena Gear. Paladins are majorly lacking (might need to take a look at some talents/abilities there too honestly) in terms of prowess when it comes to gear. Rogues are also certainly ridiculous when they can itemize optimally, and their talents/abilities allow this...these certainly need to be looked at.

I would have to agree with on the rogue gear issue...i think its clear to see that there is no need for armor pen for rogues....even with s2 gear on the TR they are still a very powerful force. Then season after season there dps goes up and up....i can't wait till s4!! .......

#29 Windwalk

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Posted 08 May 2008 - 08:41 PM

Perception is not "required" in MPR mirriors.  I would go as far to say that triple undead has an advantage over dwarf/gnome/human.  Both rogues are pre-vanishing, so the undead rogue just needs to open before his vanish is gone.  If the mages are going invis, he needs to hang back until there's 10 seconds left on invis and then pre-vanish.

The problem isn't PvE gear, imo.  It's cheat death.  If there was no cheat death, I wouldn't mind rogues in t5.  Because if they screwed up and got gibbed, they'd actually die.  Because of cheat death, PvE gear is broken though.

#30 Ocius

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Posted 08 May 2008 - 09:22 PM

Windwalk said:

Perception is not "required" in MPR mirriors.  I would go as far to say that triple undead has an advantage over dwarf/gnome/human.  Both rogues are pre-vanishing, so the undead rogue just needs to open before his vanish is gone.  If the mages are going invis, he needs to hang back until there's 10 seconds left on invis and then pre-vanish.

So having to essentially waste a Vanish before the fight has even started due to a racial isn't a problem?

Regardless of whether it gives you a Sap or not, the presence of Perception gives you a lot of freedom against non-Human teams. The fact that your Rogue has to pre-Vanish just to avoid it is retarded. And why would the Rogue on the Human team bother pre-Vanishing if he saw it was triple undead?

#31 Windwalk

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 10:38 AM

I don't think you understand.  Both rogues HAVE to pre vanish.  If your human rogue doesn't, he will get sapped by a vanished undead rogue.

I think it's retarded too.  But the fear break is a bigger advantage imo, because regardless of racials, both rogues must pre vanish.

Edited by Windwalk, 09 May 2008 - 10:40 AM.


#32 Ocius

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 01:31 PM

Since I don't have any actual experience with RMP mirrors or much as RMP in general, I trust you to know more about the matchups than I would. It's just that, conceptually, I have trouble getting around the idea of pre-Vanishing being a necessity against non-Human teams. As a Druid I have little-to-no problem avoiding Rogues without Perception. So from my perspective, I don't see why a Rogue couldn't simply take a wide path around and Shadow Step in to get the opener instead of blowing a Vanish. I may be(and probably am) wrong in my assumption, but that's where I'm coming from.

But regardless of the intricacies of RMP mirrors or rogue/x/x vs rogue/x/x in general, Perception is still an absurdly powerful racial. It has a phenomenal effect on Druids: if a Rogue catches a Druid in stealth with 0 hots up and his (the rogue's) team is ready to throw the necessary damage/CC into the druid/druid's team, you can easily force every cooldown the Druid has right from the beginning. I can almost guarantee you the Druid had to use either his PvP trinket or NS - if not both - to get out alive (if he even got out alive...). He's also likely in a pretty terrible position as his prime concern was getting himself out of harm's way. So even if you don't kill him, that gives you a huge advantage when you swap to the "normal" kill target.

Edited by Ocius, 09 May 2008 - 01:44 PM.


#33 Celnathor

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 04:26 PM

Tyveris said:

Someone sent me this through PM. His two points were PvE gear shouldn't be allowed and Perception has become required for a lot of teams, especially RMP mirrors.

I'm not sure the problem with Perception is perception itself, so much as overall class balance.  When the top teams are utterly dominated by teams with rogues on them(and druids do very well too), perception becomes a must-have to counter rogues(and druids).  If rogues weren't so utterly ubiquitous/dominant, I'm not certain perception would be "required" to the same extent, and other things like stoneform/escape artist/WOTF would be more popular.

Edited by Celnathor, 09 May 2008 - 04:31 PM.


#34 Windwalk

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 09:12 PM

We play with a human on TR, and we thought we could get away without vanishing against UD mirrors too.  It just doesn't work, you'll get sapped sometimes, which is game over.

If you're having trouble getting taken out of the stealth, rush the other team.  That's what most of the better druid/lock/x teams that we've played do.  They give us no opportunity to find the druid.

#35 Neokrebs

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 09:16 PM

Enchants and the amount of pve gear is saddening.
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#36 Iden

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Posted 10 May 2008 - 12:21 AM

Upddate the season 2 glove bonuses to have the same as season 3 (as they were changed for some classes to be more useful.)

#37 Virsath

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Posted 10 May 2008 - 03:31 PM

Tyveris said:

The use of PvE gear should be reevaluated. It tends to have a great benefit for some classes and not at all for others. Considering it is a PvP tournament, I personally would like to see all PvE gear gone. If any class requires PvE gear, that is a balancing issue that should be addressed outside of gear.
Excluding trinkets I should hope. :X

#38 Thoranous

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Posted 10 May 2008 - 11:06 PM

PvE gear in Arena needs to go.  Plain and simple.  Some classes benefit way too much from the gear.  It's simply not fair.

Edited by Thoranous, 10 May 2008 - 11:10 PM.


#39 Woofles

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Posted 10 May 2008 - 11:34 PM

Mariko said:

PVE gear FTL.  Easy solution:

Don't allow people in instances with PVP gear equipped
Don't allow people to que or enter arena's with PVE gear equipped

once inside, gear cannot be changed.
Or instead of making silly limitations for gear they could remove stamina from PvE gear, balancing encounters around dpsers and healers not having that much health and more of other stats to compensate. This will make PvP gear useless in PvE as the large amount of the item budget spent on stamina is wasted, and will really make people in PvP wearing PvE gear much more squishy.

#40 Disparity

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Posted 11 May 2008 - 04:09 AM

deep depth explaination why certain states cant play like mine




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