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Here we go again on pet scaling:


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#1 Ultimecia

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 04:30 PM

This is a copy paste of a thread I posted on the European WoW forums, give me your thoughts on the subject:



Posting in the hope someone reads this:

Pets currently scale very poorly. Upon TBC release this wasn't much of a problem because their statistics were reasonable. However as time goes on, player character's statistics increase at a far greater rate to pet's so over time pets become weaker and weaker in comparison to players.

Next few paragraphs all about felhunters and their defenses vs. magical and physical damage.

I play a warlock, primarily for arenas at a reasonably high level. Now my main problem is physical damage dealers killing my felhunter very quickly, so quickly that in many cases I prefer to use a voidwalker instead. Now I'm not saying that felhunters should be buffed to an extent where they're much more difficult to kill by melee dps in the sense voidwalkers are.

I've played several different classes so have the luxury of seeing this from other points of view. To use a broad term, from a caster point of view, felhunters are very powerful due to their very high magic resistances (which go from strong to down right ridiculous when the warlock gets a void star talisman - this trinket increases all pet resistances by 130, with 5/5 master demonologist my felhunter has 368 all resistances unbuffed), dispel abilities and spell interrupt.

On the other hand from a physical damage point of view, felhunters are exceedingly easy to kill due to their low hp, total lack of resilience and low armor. It would, in my opinion, be far more balanced if the felhunter was less strong vs. casters, and stronger vs. melee. This can be achieved by increasing its armor and decreasing its resistances. Pets are obviously a soul link warlock's weakness in arenas, although we can use voidwalkers, their abilities are far less useful and the warlock loses a massive amount of utility assuming he controls devour magic and spell lock properly.

To sum up my points regarding felhunters:


They should be easier than players to kill.

They should have less mitigation and fewer hit points than players.

They should not be killable very quickly with no cooldown use by physical damage dealers (warriors are the main problem here) - I know from first hand experience of playing a warrior and a hunter that felhunters are reasonably easy to instagib regardless of the skill of the warlock or his healer.


They should not be so resistant to magic to the point where my felhunter can solo most mages.




Points regarding pets in general:

Overall, nearly all pets, not just felhunters scale very poorly. Of their master's statistics, the ones I would most like pets to receive a proportion or increased proportion of are:

Resilience: this is, as everyone knows THE arena stat except for some lucky rogues and paladins with access to tier 6. We put a lot of effort into stacking it up, I think its reasonable pets receive a proportion of it. Admittedly pets receiving 100% of our resilience would be enormously overpowered. A reasonable amount would be perhaps 40%. Resilience was I believe, originally implemented in order to remove the ‘lol gibbed’ type of PvP dominant in TBC WoW and increase the importance of skill and strategy by reliance upon proper damage spikes and coordinated interrupts to kill someone and personally I think pets shouldn’t be as easily gibbable as they presently are.

Spell hit and penetration: Again sorry, this is mainly for felhunters. The single spell I most need spell penetration and hit for is spell lock (and fear to a lesser extent). The amount of resists I get is staggering and everyone knows how much it sucks to lose arena games thanks to a string of unlucky resists (hence why we stack spell pen and spell hit). I don’t see why giving pets some of ours would be unjustified.

From a hunter point of view in all honesty I’m not entirely sure how well their pets damage scales with their own stats so perhaps someone else can enlighten me here.

Bottom line: as players get stronger, pets are left behind which indirectly (and unfairly) hurts pet classes. This is posted on the off chance someone whose opinion matters at Blizzard reads it. I'm hoping to get some mature response instead of the usual "QQ more". I accept my views may be somewhat biased but these are just my thoughts based on personal experience. If you haven't recently played arenas at a reasonably high level or don't have access to decent gear then please accept your experiences and hence views are likely to be different from mine. This will also be posted on the Arena Junkies forums if you'd rather read the replies over there. Over and out, Ulti.

P.S. Wall of text crits you for 10000.

Edited by Ultimecia, 07 May 2008 - 12:22 PM.
Bolded some stuff so it's easier to cut through if you're in a rush

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#2 Pyrilus

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 09:07 PM

I agree with all but the resilience part.

Pets should get 100% resilience, because resilience itself is a percentage-based stat. Scaled resilience wouldn't make any sense, and resilience really just affects chance to be crit and the reduction from those crits. 40% of a max-cap resilience warlock would only reduce the chance to be crit by 5% and reducing the damage they take from crits by 10%. Might as well just give pets resilience.

The scaling has always been the same, by the way. I believe the number is 37% of stats goes to the pet. The problem is that more important stats are now being introduced and forgotten in pet scaling such as what you said regarding resilience, spell pen, spell hit. It's remarkable how much we now rely on these stats when we never used to. Spell haste will also be introduced in a large amount in S4 it seems, and that stat is going to reduce the effectiveness of pets as well.

They should add some form of scaling for these things, and up the scaling coefficients on the pets themselves.
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#3 Pyrilus

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 09:30 PM

I'd like to see felhunters with about 10,000 base HP...


Felhunters do need more HP. But also resilience.
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#4 kmzandrew

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 09:40 PM

It's not that they don't scale enough. The issue is that they don't scale with new stats and that the stats they receive don't grant them enough. For example my felhunter only gains abouut 4.5 health per point of stam. That means if I have 1000 stam it will boost my health by 10k and my pets by only about 1500.

The poor benefit pets get from stats isn't even the biggest problem. It's mostly the fact that they don't scale with resil. 500 resil in terms of itemization would be equal to about 750 stam or 600 spell damage. Both of these stats would help the pet out significantly but resil doesn't. This makes them way too fragile. 500 resil against a warrior with 30 percent crit provides approx 17 percent damage mitigation and makes the damage easier to heal through as there isn't as much burst.
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#5 Grombringal

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 09:50 PM

Void walker with resil would be unkillable by melees unless you train it like a bitch.
On the other hand fellhunter needs some love against melees.

Hard thing to fix imo.
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#6 Ratstud

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 09:52 PM

*Moves thread to hunter forum for addional QQ*
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#7 Grombringal

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 09:59 PM

YUP, FIGHTING 3VS2 SEEMS FAIR TOO LOL.
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#8 Nm

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 10:02 PM

PvP = Player vs. Player, you're right.

But it still isn't Player vs. Player + Equally scaled pet.

The problem with asking for scaling of pets is that a felguard and BM hunter pet will be doing extreme amounts of damage, voidwalkers are going to be unkillable - ever, and felhunters are just going to be good.

Pets should be killable - it's why we get soul link, it requires someone to actually toss additional healing onto the pet, so it takes some amount of skill. Soul link is an amazing buff - every buff needs it's own downside to it.
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#9 Axin

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 10:38 PM

Yes, if you base all your playstyle around a buff, any warrior should be able to instagib it with 60 rage, and at the very least make it a mana sink.

Pet should get resilience, humping the pet(s) all match shouldn't be a viable strat. A nice switch when it's low while ccing the healer should, but not the zerg fest I have to assist to. It's so gay. It's not like 450 resilience makes rogues/warriors less able to kill low armor targets is it?
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#10 Speedo

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 11:06 PM

Felhunters need a slight armor buff, and at most a very slight % of masters resiliance. and you warlocks disagree with me but they need less fucking magical resistances to make them killable by casters
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#11 kmzandrew

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 11:17 PM

Felhunters need a slight armor buff, and at most a very slight % of masters resiliance. and you warlocks disagree with me but they need less fucking magical resistances to make them killable by casters


With season 4 you should have like 115 spell pen. That makes felhunters fairly easy to kill. All warlock pets need resil. I mean seriously have you ever seen someone use a succubus? Why isn't there any complaining about succubus not being viable because scaling sucks? Seriously though you could kill voidwalkers back in 2.2 when there was no armor penetration so even if they got 100 percent of our resil they would still be killable. You would just have to be able to gib it in a smart way rather than sit on it and win because its impossible to keep it alive.

EDIT:

PVP shouldn't be Player verse gimped Player (because his pet got 2 shot and the class relies on pets)

Edited by kmzandrew, 06 May 2008 - 11:20 PM.

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#12 Oteb

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 11:25 PM

KILLING A PET SHOULD NEVER EVER BE A VIABLE STRAT FOR BEATING A TEAM!!!


Pets should have SO MUCH survivability that a team NEVER EVER can kill your pet to win a game....

PvP = PLAYER VS. PLAYER


NOT PLAYER VS. PET


Single most stupid thing i read on those forums.
If you dont want itt to make player vs pet dont summon it. having fellhunter on me all time eatting buffs and silencing is not fun.
You got a totem killer, offensive dispeller, defensive dispeler, silence and it stops dringing. All for no mana or gcd cost.
If you think it should have no weakenss you are just plain silly.
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#13 Escabar

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 11:54 PM

pets need resil

magic resists arent a problem as atm most casters have 99 penetration

come s4 penetration levels will be between 115-150 soo......
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#14 Tya

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 12:18 AM

Single most stupid thing i read on those forums.
If you dont want itt to make player vs pet dont summon it. having fellhunter on me all time eatting buffs and silencing is not fun.
You got a totem killer, offensive dispeller, defensive dispeler, silence and it stops dringing. All for no mana or gcd cost.
If you think it should have no weakenss you are just plain silly.


The pet itself is a weakness.

We met a rather retarded priest/rogue team at 2100. Their whole tactic was to sit on my pet the whole game.

Really, I was totally ignored, as was my paladin.

Easy win you think? Na. The rogue was killing them faster than I could resummon them while fear DR was cooling down.

Eventually I blew feldom, last pet met same fate, then they sat on me for the rest of the game and won.

Single most annoying match I've ever been in ever.
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#15 kmzandrew

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 12:59 AM

Single most stupid thing i read on those forums.
If you dont want itt to make player vs pet dont summon it. having fellhunter on me all time eatting buffs and silencing is not fun.
You got a totem killer, offensive dispeller, defensive dispeler, silence and it stops dringing. All for no mana or gcd cost.
If you think it should have no weakenss you are just plain silly.


Trust me if blizzard fixed the destro or affliciton trees for pvp I wouldn't depend on a pet but as is warlocks depend on their pets. If you don't have a pet out you lose the mitigation from SL and about 20 percent of the damage you deal. That is freaking massive. As is we depend on having a pet out to do relatively well and pets are getting easier and easier to kill. Either pets need to become harder to kill or we need to become less reliant on them via serious changes to our talent trees.
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#16 Heelie

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 01:49 AM

The problem has more to do with the felhunter and less to do with pet scaling in my opinion. While I think there needs to be better pet scaling to a certain extent... VW is great with melee, FH is great with casters. I wish they could be balanced more, make felhunters easier for casters to kill but make them harder for melee. The reason I am worried about pet scaling is that hunter pets (besides actually doing some damage, while at the same time providing great utility via scorpid poison) are not nearly as easily killed as our felhunters.

Edit: Also you can't say you are fighting somehow more than 1 person if a warlock has a pet. Ever fight a petless SL lock? Of course you have thats why warriors all go after pets because after it's dead it usually a win. Again this is just another facet of melee dominance over warlocks.

Edited by Heelie, 07 May 2008 - 01:51 AM.

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#17 Oteb

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 01:22 PM

The pet itself is a weakness.

We met a rather retarded priest/rogue team at 2100. Their whole tactic was to sit on my pet the whole game.

Really, I was totally ignored, as was my paladin.

Easy win you think? Na. The rogue was killing them faster than I could resummon them while fear DR was cooling down.

Eventually I blew feldom, last pet met same fate, then they sat on me for the rest of the game and won.

Single most annoying match I've ever been in ever.


90% of warlocks to exact same with their pet to my totems. They just dont lose gcd, time , mana or attention to do it. so go QQ moar
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#18 Dooters

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 01:32 PM

Felhunters are still kinda hard for rogues to kill due to it resisting all my wound poisons, so 2 lifeblooms will heal through all dmg -.- not to mention abolish poison
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#19 Axin

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 02:21 PM

Man if only your totem was a 6s cast with a reagent. It's so not the same thing I don't know where to begin the comparison.

Warlocks are a pet class. They lose shitload of utility without pets. SL Locks are pet-oriented pet class. They lose more than others locks without pet. Nobody says a pet shouldn't be killable. It shouldn't be gibbable in seconds, that's all.

It should be more of a gamble. If you set up well enough, you won the gamble, gibbed the pet and got an edge on the match. If not, you're in a bad position and you have to try harder to recover. Atm, it's no gamble, it's a sure strategy over any lock/healer with the exception of druid/lock maybe.
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#20 Oteb

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 02:55 PM

Warlocks are a pet class. They lose shitload of utility without pets. SL Locks are pet-oriented pet class. They lose more than others locks without pet. Nobody says a pet shouldn't be killable. It shouldn't be gibbable in seconds, that's all.


Shamans are a totem class. They lose shitload of utility without totems. Resto shamans are totem oriented healer-support class. They lose more than other healers without buffs. Nobody says totems shouldnt be killable. It shouldnt be gibbable by level 1. Thats all.

c wut i did there?
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