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How to Fix Mages in Arena


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#21 Archmage

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 01:15 AM

Agree with most, here's my list
  • Frostbolt needs to do more dmg on frozen or non frozen targets. Ice Lance should do less.
  • Shatter needs a tweak so we don't need to w8 for season 11 to have the wanted haste+crit with a good amount of resilience.
  • Sheep must be a bit faster and provide a short of dispel protection.
  • Shattered Barrier should go and either buff Ice Barrier or when Barrier breaks/dispelled it provides another defensive ability.
  • Mage armor should give a bit less mana and Spellsteal should cost a bit more.
  • Flame/FFB Orb should follow targets or have longer range
  • Maybe Reactive Barrier should be a glyph and instead of auto-casting under 50% hp just removed gcd from Ice Barrier. Or Gloves equip bonus along with blink provide -0.5 gcd to Ice Barrier.
  • Put Impact more down on fire tree so frost mages can't get it.

Edited by Archmage, 14 February 2011 - 01:16 AM.


#22 Seu

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 01:56 AM

mage class has been mechanically gutted and it is not fun to play as or against

#23 Grillor

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 02:20 AM

I completely agree with vile here.  Mage class is absolute trash right now and we need to get a unified voice out to blizz to save our class.  If we were just weak it would be ok, but the mage class is mechanically flawed, which will make this expansion a headache for good mages out there.  With only 1 viable spec and one of the only pure damage casters still in arena, I think that we deserve buffs for sure.  Not ice lance buffs, but poly/frostbolt buffs.  

And yea shattered barrier is retarded, if they removed it and replaced it with something to make poly more than a big piece of dog crap that would be excellent.

#24 lucrativex

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 03:10 AM

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#25 sayber

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 03:18 AM

Polymorph blows so much.

#26 Tsutchie

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 03:42 AM

Nice proposals, but wouldn't Blizzard ignore it since I can imagine they hate people telling how should they do their job? Seeing how DA managed to get through PTR.

#27 Ctuhlu

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 04:45 AM

Frost is fine, hopefully Blizzard spends time fixing actually broken specs like Balance and Elemental instead of working on mages and making more Ring-of-Frost-like mistakes.

Fourreur said:

we have to switch to them making the decision to pop reck or not to pop reck

#28 Epothos

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 04:46 AM

View PostTsutchie, on 14 February 2011 - 03:42 AM, said:

Nice proposals, but wouldn't Blizzard ignore it since I can imagine they hate people telling how should they do their job? Seeing how DA managed to get through PTR.

People wouldn't have to if Blizzard had any clue about how to balance PvP. Some of the changes they have made this expansion are so out of this world, having no affect on PvE, but completely ruining PvP. And I doubt they would ignore it as, it is just suggestions and feedback.

Quite frankly, I don't think Blizzard knows what they are doing when they make PvP changes. The state of all casters is so frustrating because casting is nearly impossible, and blizzard keep emphasizing on non-casting playstyles which is not ideal and will not be good enough in high level PvP.

#29 Vilerose

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 05:26 AM

Quote

Also objective data seems to be completely ignored on this forum this season. The above post is from a mage and makes the claim that the issue is mages being to good at the lower levels but are hard countered at the top? Objective data says this is not true. Mage rep is high at 2200 but surges upwards at 2400 and gets even higher at 2600. The data says mages get stronger the higher up you go.

There is simply no proof that dispels and super godly healers are having much success countering mages. I am strictly arguing the data portion of it. If mages are doing terrible why are they the #1 class above 2600 at 16% rep. On top of that mage rep has gone up since the patch lol.

What happen to the days of nerf and no compensation? Mages are overpowered right now. They are overpowered in every single area of pvp. They are being stacked in rated BGs, they are overpowered 1v1, they are overpowered in 2v2 and 3v3. Why can't they just be nerfed to bring their representation to reasonable levels. Then after that happens if there is some signs that they are having issues their problems can be addressed.

I just don't see the reasoning behind buffing mages at all or making the spec any better then it already is. All objective data clearly shows that it's the best dps spec in arena in the history of arena in the 3v3 bracket. That isn't me saying that...it's the objective data saying that.

wow forums rofl

#30 Hawtstuffs

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 05:48 AM

View PostVilerose, on 13 February 2011 - 11:20 PM, said:

Simply put, Mages are a broken class right now.
Class mechanics need an overhaul in an attempt to balance Mages with both buffs and nerfs.


There are several contributing factors:

1) Novas are far too powerful and plentiful. Playing against Mages, no matter how awful the Mages are, will always be miserable and no fun so long as Mages have so many instant aoe roots at their disposal.

2) Mages are too powerful when the healer is crowd controlled, and not nearly powerful enough when not. This has to do with dispels and the momentum we're able to create through casting opportunities when novas etc aren't dispelled.

3) You are not rewarded at all for casting frostbolt. By successfully kiting and juking, you can cast frostbolt for a massive 5500 noncrit damage on players with 3500 resil. Mages are not rewarded adequately for being able to play well enough to get off Frostbolts; risk vs reward problem.

4) Extreme devaluation of polymorph on anything but the healer. The abundance and availability of dispels from healers, interrupts from dps, loss of r1 frostbolt and winter's chill, and increased cast time on polymorph make using polymorph on anything but the healer a waste of time unless the healer is cc'd by someone else. It's just almost never worthwhile; another risk vs reward problem.

5) Mages are GCD locked while being trained. Mage defenses are all activated abilities that require the use of a global cooldown (ice barrier, mana shield, cone of cold root, frost nova, mage ward); contrast this to warlocks whose defenses are far more passive in nature (damage mitigation from soul link etc).  This leaves little time to do damage of any sort besides Ice Lance on Fingers of Frost procs or on an Improved Cone of Cold target. This is also a contributing factor to Frostbolt not really being worthwhile to cast while trained.

6) The Shatter talent change from WotLK to Cataclysm forces Mages to gear for crit in order to do deal semi-reliable damage that is already insufficient in arena. This severely cuts back on haste and other stats that Mages would have been collecting instead (when Shatter was just a flat +50% crit chance).

7) Time is a Mage's enemy. Mage usefulness slowly expires with time due to cooldown dependency and the extremely long downtime between cold snaps.



Proposed Solutions: (numbers are examples; changes made with as little PvE impact as possible)

1) Completely change Shattered Barrier so that it reduces incoming damage by 20% for 8 seconds after breaking; remove nova effect. The current Shattered Barrier promotes further use of Ice Lance over Frostbolt while being trained, and the amount of instant novas available is currently absurd.

2) Change Improved Cone of Cold talent so that it roots the opponent only when the Cone of Cold slow is dispelled, change the root so that it is undispellable and 3sec instead of 4sec. This further cuts back on instant roots/peels and the promotion of Ice Lance while being trained, but it also makes it so that Mages aren't so badly punished by spam dispels. It also makes Cone of Cold more dynamic and makes Mages put more thought into the use of the ability.

3) Add a new major glyph ("Glyph of Quickening" or whatever) that reduces the base global cooldown of Ice Barrier, Cone of Cold, and Frost Nova to 1sec with a .5sec gcd cap for the abilities (meaning gcd will be affected by haste).  This essentially serves to shave off a combined 2-3 seconds every 30sec so that Mages can actually cast an additional Frostbolt here or there while being trained without actually lowering the cast time of Frostbolt.

4) Add new ability to frost talent tree choice or frost talents that functions as a modified R1 Frostbolt: .5sec cast, no cooldown, no damage or very very minimal damage; applies debuff that snares the target. When used, the ability lowers the cast time of the Mage's next Polymorph by .3sec, and when dispelled increases the damage of the Mage's frostbolts by 20% for 10sec.

The new ability's debuff wouldn't override the Frostbolt or Cone of Cold debuff, but instead both could exist simultaneously on same target.  For reference, noncrit frostbolts currently do 5.5k damage on 3500 resil targets, so a 20% frostbolt increase in damage would just be 6.6k frostbolts. This lowers Mage susceptibility to dispels, provides a minor cover debuff for Polymorph, and allows Polymorphs to actually land more often.

5) Reduce the base cooldown of Cold Snap from 8 minutes to 6 minutes. This hopefully will make it actually feel like time is less the enemy than it currently is; Rogue Preparation got the same treatment.



Net Effect of Proposed Changes:

1) Less instant novas / peels.
2) Less Ice Lance opportunities.
3) Less susceptibility to spam dispels.
4) Less awful in really long games.
5) Greater reward for casting Frostbolt.
6) Polymorph more effective.


WoW forums link: http://us.battle.net...ic/2065610125#1

1. Completely disagree, if anything mages have to little novas, everyone has a dispel so novas are irrelevant

2. The healer is doing something wrong, since its almost impossible to even be CCd in the first place...

3. Frostbolt is perfectly fine the way it is, it crits for 20k....a little burst here, little damage there...that is how it should be, a balance of everything.

4. It is always worth it to try and get a sheep on the DPS, its as simple as sheep the DPS, deep freeze/imp cs the healer, problem solved.

5. Mages have blink when being trained, blink > polymorph, shatter, normally the other team has to blow massive cooldowns by this point....so idk how you can be GCD starved when no one can even stick on mages to begin with.

6. Spamming Icelance is exactly how the mage class should be played, so I dont see a problem with this talent

7. Mages have all the time in the world, considering there pet is out for an infinite amount of time and when you kill it...oh look another ones out, mages dont even really have any cooldowns other than iceblock.

~Second Half~

A. Mages already take almost no damage, especially when playing with a disc priest, the barriers are almost impossible to break through

B. I kind of like this idea, but it should be changed too... Change Improved Cone of Cold talent so that it roots the opponent only when the Cone of Cold slow is dispelled, change the root so that it is undispellable and 3/6/9sec instead of 4sec

C. Your polymorph is already extremely fast, 1.7 seconds (2 seconds with mind numbing) is already extremely hard to interrupt, I really dont want to go back to the s8 days of wizardy where it WAS IMPOSSIBLE to interrupt, right now its just semi-impossible

D. Meh...mages already have like 30 different frost talents, dont need anymore

E. Like I said before, you blink game over for the other team if they have no cds.


thats just my simple input on mages, all in all mages a teir 1 class right now and should be left alone

#31 ceqqx

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:09 AM

live fast, troll hard

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without facing their mortality..."

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#32 Insomniac

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:25 AM

Hope hawtstuff is trolling.

Frostbolt definitely needs a buff, is barely worth casting at the moment.
Agree with all your points Vileroze except maybe the last one.
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#33 avoid

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:30 AM

i like the changes, but lets see if Blizzard can balance abit more next patch, also somebody said 20% mage armor, don't try to destroy our class

Edited by avoid, 14 February 2011 - 06:30 AM.


#34

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:37 AM

Quote

1. Completely disagree, if anything mages have to little novas, everyone has a dispel so novas are irrelevant
:lol:

#35 demonfear

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:40 AM

i strongly agree with all of this, right now there are too many cc's/interrupts, too many roots, too many gap closers, and too many instant casts that are more powerful and rewarding than casts.

Then the cc's are too easily dispelled if not on healer, and too long if on healer.


These changes would be a step in the right direction.

Edited by demonfear, 14 February 2011 - 06:40 AM.

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#36 Darckli

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:43 AM

View Postdemonfear, on 14 February 2011 - 06:40 AM, said:

Then the cc's are too easily dispelled if not on healer, and too long if on healer.

Is that the phrasing you intended?

#37 Serida

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 07:14 AM

this was pretty well thought out, much better than most mage posts of knowing the mage class isint fun but not knowing how to make it better without making it the strongest class.

i agree with most of your points but id like to comment on a couple points.

mages being GCD capped while trained is a tricky point, you basically have 3 ways casters deal with getting trained atm: locks spend almost no GCDs and have good survivability, mages (and to a lesser extent shadowpriests) spend alot of GCDs and have good survivability, all other casters have truly bad survivability. the problem is basically locks dont need to spend enough globals to have the best survivability, if anything all survivability should be brought closer to mage/sp instead of lock. i think your later suggestion to remove 0.5 on defensive abilities is a good idea also though.

id rather see cone of cold being 3sec undispellable root right away. id rather see mages play with a melee if they want strong snares but 3sec undispelable root should make it a solid peel for a partner whose on a pillar and just long enough to get melee off you for a chance to poly. despite this being controlled it seems like DR would have to go into the random root category to make it balanaced though.

i like the r1 frostbolt idea but it would make sence for it to do minimal damage, cover debuffs should be used before cc not after.

as far as cold snap i think the cooldown itself promotes mages being weaker in longer games, theres no way to change this without reworking the ability itself so your weaker early game with 2 full sets of CDs rdy, your suggestion is basically just a buff but a fairly reasonable one so im not disagreeing, but this doesnt fix the problem well.

Edited by Serida, 14 February 2011 - 07:18 AM.

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#38 Hawtstuffs

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 07:16 AM

View PostInsomniac, on 14 February 2011 - 06:25 AM, said:

Hope hawtstuff is trolling.

Frostbolt definitely needs a buff, is barely worth casting at the moment.
Agree with all your points Vileroze except maybe the last one.
what would lead you to believe that I was trolling, when all of the things that I said was 100% true and not biased like every other mage is.

#39 Kelarm

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 07:29 AM

View PostHawtstuffs, on 14 February 2011 - 07:16 AM, said:

what would lead you to believe that I was trolling, when all of the things that I said was 100% true and not biased like every other mage is.

Rofl I think I see his point now.

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#40 fant0m8

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 07:31 AM

The only change that mages need is to put all of their roots on the same DR.

They don't need buffs.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.




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