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How To Fix Moonkins


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#41 Xewl

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 08:56 AM

fyi in 2s with my resto shaman i decimate people at 2250 rating playing even impossible to kill comps.

pretty funny seeing a dk druid try hard comp at 2300 mmr getting obliterated in 4 minutes and ooming druid way before my healer does to a fat chicken, at least you can have fun in 2s!
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#42 Guest_Alphatier_*

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 11:30 AM

you are Ooming resto druids in 2s with a healer? if that's true, 3s with a lock should really be good. I don't really trust that yet though :P
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#43 Jorge

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 09:47 PM

An other suggestion to wild mushrooms would be to make them like engineering grenades, since detonation is too clunky. You start out with a buff that counts how many mushrooms you have on you. You would throw the mushroom and it would explode on contact with the ground doing damage leaving the fungal growth where it landed. An other idea would be that if you reach a max stack of mushrooms (4-5?) they would unite and create a "mushroom nuke" that does a 2 second stun (think shadowfury) and 20% more damage than a normal mushroom. These mushrooms would build slowly overtime, about 1 every 5 seconds.

Edited by Jorge, 14 February 2011 - 09:48 PM.

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#44 heyimqq

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 09:56 PM

no
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rip


#45 oklolz

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 09:59 PM

Haha pure comedy gold

What is comedic what so ever about what I said.
Your damage is amazing, your survivability is now great with your new moonkin form soul link.
10 Second interrupt althoguh on a long cooldown, i can almost gaurentee 19/20 healers won't bother to fake this.
Typhoon is extrmeley underrated and useful. Your off heals are great. Mana pool is fine. 30 Yard cyclone. not really sure what else you could possibly want out of a hybrid caster
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#46 Jorge

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 10:15 PM

You said it yourself, we have everything but gimped. Our survivability is meh at most what we realy need a reason to bring a moonkin over a mage or a lock, because right now there is no reason. And yeah our damage is amazing, but that has never been an issue for us. Totally agree with the rest of the things you said (mana / off heals / typhoon)
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#47 Epothos

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 10:42 PM

It's like any Moonkin thread gets derailed by ppl who say Moonkins are OP. What game are you people playing.

@ our damage:
Our damage may be high, but our burst is almost nonexistant. Spamming Moonfire while running DoTs and shooting star proccs isn't going to kill shit because Starsurge doesn't hit more than 20k on a resil target even with eclipse up and DoTs are dispelled/healed. Yeah my damage will be high, but what do we have to show for it? Nothing is going to die like that. I do 2s sometimes with a resto druid for points and when we verse other healer/DPS teams we usually lose by 30 minutes. I usually have 1.5 to 2 times more damage than the other DPS but it's all for shit, because unless that damage is used for burst, spreading DoTs and seeing the numbers add up isn't going to kill anything.

@ our tools
All of our tools save typhoon to an extent pretty much suck. If you think about a lot of the tools a moonkin has to perform to damage, CC, survive, peels, assistance (anything really) a lot of them have either a 2/+ sec cast time or a 3/+ sec delay.

Wanna to snare something? 2-4 GCDs, and even then it's not guarenteed or worth the GCDs
Want to survive in the face of death with FR regen? 2 GCDs
Want to Silence something? 2 GCDs, hope they aren't in mid air when you cast solar beam or cast nothing and wait to interrupt so you won't be GCD locked
Damage? B-word please. Any damage you do while not in Eclipse is wasted mana unless it gives eclipse energy and then you only have a set amount of casts to do damage that is on par with what other classes get all the time.

The list goes on. PART of the problem I've recently noticed with moonkins is how they can never do anything on demand. Everything needs preparation or has some unneeded drawback.

EDIT: @OP why don't you make a list of suggestions and problems you find throughout this thread in the first post?

Edited by Epothos, 14 February 2011 - 10:44 PM.

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#48 Tiggar

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 10:53 PM

wow you guys

moonkins are so overpowered

blizzard

what

i don't even

outlasting resto druid in mana

it's like

i can't

i just

wow

unreal

rank 1 inc

???
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#49 Domesauce

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 11:03 PM

it really seems to me that every problem with moonkins (no dispel prot, needs peels, aoe dmg not single target) are all solved by playing with an aff warlock.

so i mean sure throw around mechanic change ideas, but in the meantime play your r1 capable comp :)
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#50 Ctuhlu

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 12:37 AM

It's like any Moonkin thread gets derailed by ppl who say Moonkins are OP. What game are you people playing.

@ our damage:
Our damage may be high, but our burst is almost nonexistant. Spamming Moonfire while running DoTs and shooting star proccs isn't going to kill shit because Starsurge doesn't hit more than 20k on a resil target even with eclipse up and DoTs are dispelled/healed. Yeah my damage will be high, but what do we have to show for it? Nothing is going to die like that. I do 2s sometimes with a resto druid for points and when we verse other healer/DPS teams we usually lose by 30 minutes. I usually have 1.5 to 2 times more damage than the other DPS but it's all for shit, because unless that damage is used for burst, spreading DoTs and seeing the numbers add up isn't going to kill anything.

@ our tools
All of our tools save typhoon to an extent pretty much suck. If you think about a lot of the tools a moonkin has to perform to damage, CC, survive, peels, assistance (anything really) a lot of them have either a 2/+ sec cast time or a 3/+ sec delay.

Wanna to snare something? 2-4 GCDs, and even then it's not guarenteed or worth the GCDs
Want to survive in the face of death with FR regen? 2 GCDs
Want to Silence something? 2 GCDs, hope they aren't in mid air when you cast solar beam or cast nothing and wait to interrupt so you won't be GCD locked
Damage? B-word please. Any damage you do while not in Eclipse is wasted mana unless it gives eclipse energy and then you only have a set amount of casts to do damage that is on par with what other classes get all the time.

The list goes on. PART of the problem I've recently noticed with moonkins is how they can never do anything on demand. Everything needs preparation or has some unneeded drawback.

EDIT: @OP why don't you make a list of suggestions and problems you find throughout this thread in the first post?


You hit the nail on the head. Everything a Moonkin does or should be able to do takes multiple GCDs and setup. Couple that with the fact that we have nothing to actually set up burst or set up a kill and you get an underachieving spec. Any rogue team counters Moonkin so god damn hard that it actually makes me rage (and I have a low-key player on every other class I play). The problem with Moonkin isn't defence. We don't need dispersion or shield wall or Ice Block. We just need tools to do what we want to do reliably a fraction of the time. Some kind of aura mastery, stun reduction/immunity, or get-away instantly tool. Right now the only casters that rely on casting damage while melee is literally on top of them are Elemental Shamans and Balance druids. What a surprise, the two worst specs in the game right now.

All I hear is rogues bitching about the positional requirement of backstab. How about getting rid of the facing-your-target-at-the-end-of-the-cast requirement of Wrath and Starfire (And Lava Burst/Lightning bolt)?!?! Try doing ANYTHING against a subrogue when they have Mindnumbing, Kick, Gouge, Vanish reopens/Garrote, Kidney Shot, Cloak, etc --- it just isn't going to happen. Not to mention you have to end up facing them when they are hopping around you like a moron, because Starfire and Wrath have horrible frontal requirements. The spec is simply poorly designed.

We have no reliable ANYTHING. No reliable getaway, no reliable kill setups, no reliable healing, no reliable CC. Mages bitching about polymorph cast time? At least they can fucking blink away or nova for distance instead of having to juke two interrupts (and then usually get stunned) every time you want to CC something. Honestly, if everyone played a Moonkin for a day, class bitching would go down by 90%.

Let me also say that the fact that most druids don't recognize what makes Balance bad doesn't help either. It has nothing to do with dispel protection -- in fact it's pretty depressing seeing so many people point this out as a critical issue.

The main problem is our lack of general reliability and utility, plus our complete lack of any kind of downside to being trained. For example:

- Train the mage? Have to deal with two blocks, novas, blinks, shields,
- Train the lock? Have to deal with self-heals, port, general tankiness.
- Train the shadow priest? Have to deal with dispersion, shields.
- Train the Moonkin? ......???????...... profit

Edited by Ctuhlu, 15 February 2011 - 12:44 AM.

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we have to switch to them making the decision to pop reck or not to pop reck


#51 Domesauce

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 02:01 AM

that's why you have to play with a warlock. downside to training druid is letting warlock freecast UAs and fears with druid instant damage. rogues are easy, they get UA feared into roots into clones and just have to run away and die if they cloak before we pop damage CDs.
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#52 Caulktok

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 04:03 AM

Really the biggest issue with moonkins as Cthulu pointed out is their old school way of applying damage which doesnt work anymore.

Ele shaman and Moonkin are the only 2 casters that, in order to put out the pressure of a mage/lock they need to

STAND IN ONE PLACE AND SPAM NUKE IT

Which in turn means that you need to not be getting trained (lol)
The person being nuked needs to not simply LOS you (lol)
And no Interrupts can be thrown at you (lol)

It's just an outdated caster DPS spec, plain and simple. For some god forsaken reason (probably cuz this game is just stupid atm) I enjoy my moonkin more then my lock.

Insta roots being taken away from moonkins hurt more then I ever thought it would, and with a moonkin team it seems to me you have to have a shaman of some sort (resto or enhance) on the team for the interrupts needed to even pressure the team/stop their DPS.

Doing 3s with a warrior and a priest atm, we always do SO MUCH more damage then the other team and yet we are the ones in trouble for almost the whole match. Or one thing goes wrong (I get deep frozen at 50% HP) And bursted down because in order to pop my survivability talents I must shift into bear form.

Also someone said moonkin offhealing is good, IS YOU FORREAL?

AM I MISSING SOMETHING? I AM PRETTY SURE MY HEALING IS GARBAGE.
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#53 oklolz

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 06:21 AM

You said it yourself, we have everything but gimped. Our survivability is meh at most what we realy need a reason to bring a moonkin over a mage or a lock, because right now there is no reason. And yeah our damage is amazing, but that has never been an issue for us. Totally agree with the rest of the things you said (mana / off heals / typhoon)


I'd take a moonkin over a mage right now in a lot of comps if I wasn't a druid. They can actually tank melee.
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#54 Jorge

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 10:38 AM

I want some of what hes smoking ^

And on the moonkin off healing department, the key is hots are useless. Honestly don't bother with them if your trying to support your healer spam a few regrowths or go behind a pillar and pop Tranquility, it should help him live through almost anything.
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#55 Xewl

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 02:42 PM

I do 2s sometimes with a resto druid for points and when we verse other healer/DPS teams we usually lose by 30 minutes.


k well, im playing moonkin healer too, and i'm beating minor from blackrock 2900 in wrath priest rogue, then a furious gladiator priest rogue right afterwards, then a mage priest, then a dk shaman that was 2500 mmr ( in cata ), then several random comps like paladin warrior etc etc.

you are ALL doing it wrong

BUT YOU WILL NOT HAVE MY SECRETS

Edited by Xewl, 15 February 2011 - 02:44 PM.

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#56 Caulktok

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 05:56 PM

Hmm yeah I guess I've been off-healing all wrong then lol. Got a lot to do to work on my moonkinning abilities, but really the main problem is finding good players on this server and even more so, finding good players that want to play with a moonkin in place of any other class that is better =0
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#57 Epothos

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 06:08 PM

that's why you have to play with a warlock. downside to training druid is letting warlock freecast UAs and fears with druid instant damage. rogues are easy, they get UA feared into roots into clones and just have to run away and die if they cloak before we pop damage CDs.


Requiring a certain class/specc to compete =/= viable. I don't wanna play with lock nor do I know one. And you really are looking at this the wrong way. Moonkins aren't amazing with locks. Locks are just overpowered. What class doesn't work with a warlock?
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#58 Epothos

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 06:10 PM

k well, im playing moonkin healer too, and i'm beating minor from blackrock 2900 in wrath priest rogue, then a furious gladiator priest rogue right afterwards, then a mage priest, then a dk shaman that was 2500 mmr ( in cata ), then several random comps like paladin warrior etc etc.

you are ALL doing it wrong

BUT YOU WILL NOT HAVE MY SECRETS


Pffft. I'm running Resto DRUID/Balance DRUID. and we do it for points with no skype/vent. So sorry?
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#59 Domesauce

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 06:41 PM

Requiring a certain class/specc to compete =/= viable. I don't wanna play with lock nor do I know one. And you really are looking at this the wrong way. Moonkins aren't amazing with locks. Locks are just overpowered. What class doesn't work with a warlock?


viable with a certain class IS viable. only being viable with 1 class is not ideal.


if you're seriously making this comparison, warlock class has 3 tier 1 comps, moonkin spec has 1. that's not even an imbalance. not to troll up this thread here, but my only point is that moonkin has a tier 1 comp, replies from people that "just dont want to play it" are pretty worthless
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#60 Jorge

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 06:51 PM

Its not a tier 1 comp, its solid but lets not get ahead of ourselves here :).
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