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17k Shatters thank you blizz


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#41 Pownmeisterz

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 12:09 AM

How about a talent that causes dispels on our CC to burn a chunk of mana. Something along the lines of 5% of total mana burned for dispelling a sheep, 2% for a root, 1% for snaring effects. The effectiveness of this type of dispel mechanic would be pretty straight forward throughout the entire expansion.

In first season arenas, mage's haste levels will be low enough to where sheeps will be difficult to get off, and the mana penalty for dispelling it will be fairly harsh because of the low regen currently available. Towards the end seasons, the haste levels for mages will be much higher, and sheeps will be much easier to get off, and at the same time, healers will have a lot more regen to be able to dispel more frequently.


And as far as that hunter who quoted me earlier, you must be trolling because the damage reduction is definitely not linear. 100-99% is 1.01% less damage taken for 1% resilience gain. Going from 2-1% is 100% less damage taken for a 1% resilience gain, its not very difficult to figure this out.
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#42 Tyumbra

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 04:53 AM

grossest exaggeration I've ever seen on AJ

You do realize aimed shot crits for maybe 23k-24k on resil
was getting 16k crits on plate for a 2.9 cast (rofl patch notes lied about 2.4 oh and they lied about master call and oh they lied about conc shot glyph and oh they lied about deterence while disarmed >.>)

then chimera does maybe 15k-17k

Hunters do do alot of burst but nothing near what your saying and nothing special what so ever on plate

I'm loving this end of the world crying though



http://img843.images...f/wtfhunter.jpg

What?

Edited by Tyumbra, 11 February 2011 - 04:54 AM.

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#43 Mity

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 04:57 AM

http://img843.imageshack.us/f/wtfhunter.jpg

What?


lol
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#44 inpulamea

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 08:20 AM

And as far as that hunter who quoted me earlier, you must be trolling because the damage reduction is definitely not linear. 100-99% is 1.01% less damage taken for 1% resilience gain. Going from 2-1% is 100% less damage taken for a 1% resilience gain, its not very difficult to figure this out.



How is going from 2% to 1% is higher that going from 100% to 99%???? It seems that for you ia hard to figure it out. For us that have a graduate diploma in mathematicsis hard to figure it out.

It doesn't matter what is the net % gain per point. It matters the outcome of that gain.and the outcome translates as a 1 pp gain.

Only haste stacks differently and in some cases mastery. The rest of the stats stack by a liniar model.
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#45 Vilerose

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 08:47 AM

How is going from 2% to 1% is higher that going from 100% to 99%???? It seems that for you ia hard to figure it out. For us that have a graduate diploma in mathematicsis hard to figure it out.

It doesn't matter what is the net % gain per point. It matters the outcome of that gain.and the outcome translates as a 1 pp gain.

Only haste stacks differently and in some cases mastery. The rest of the stats stack by a liniar model.

Resil scales linearly, but Effective Health Pool due to resil scales hyperbolically.
You have effectively double the health going from 98% -> 99% damage reduction.
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#46 affix

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 06:30 PM

And as far as that hunter who quoted me earlier, you must be trolling because the damage reduction is definitely not linear. 100-99% is 1.01% less damage taken for 1% resilience gain. Going from 2-1% is 100% less damage taken for a 1% resilience gain, its not very difficult to figure this out.

0-1% and 98-99% are exactly the same damage reduction values, what vileroze said is true, not what you're saying here. There's really no scaling problems with resil, but people look at it in a dumb way (98-99% = half as much damage, instead of 0-98% and 0-99% being 1% different)
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#47 affix

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 07:40 PM

I crit 37k on dummies with almost full epic pvp gear and 359 wep (without trinket pops or anything)
that hunter had either 372 wep and/or pve gear or possibly buffs and CDs popped

I could get some huge numbers off pve geared frost mages frostfire too so what?

Lets stop exaggerating and acting like its the end of the world please...

Oh no, please do, give us screenshots of a PvP geared Mage with double trinkets procced (which is what that hunter has) critting a 3k resil target for 40k+
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#48 Tyumbra

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 07:47 PM

I crit 37k on dummies with almost full epic pvp gear and 359 wep (without trinket pops or anything)
that hunter had either 372 wep and/or pve gear or possibly buffs and CDs popped

I could get some huge numbers off pve geared frost mages frostfire too so what?

Lets stop exaggerating and acting like its the end of the world please...



It's interesting to note that you claimed I was exaggerating. I showed you proof of my claims, and you're quick to denounce it as gear.

Basically, what you're trying to say is that a player in gear and possibly buffs and CDs did that much damage to a target with 3000 resil, but that's ok because... he possibly had buffs and CDs. You're an idiot.

Nobody should be capable of dealing 80k+ damage to a resil'd target in 1 second, even if the stars aligned and all of your CDs and procs were on. We have Ret Paladins doing 60k HoW/Exorcism combos to targets with 3400 resil. Hunters doing 80k+ damage to targets in resil. Warriors doing over 100k in 1 second against targets with resil. And we had Mages doing 40k over 5 seconds with Icelance.


The fact that it's possible for anyone to be capable of doing that much damage to decent/high resil targets is a sign of imbalance, and you're as fucking high as a kite if you think it's ok.
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#49 Iroe

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 07:55 PM

To be honest I generally like mages' damage output and the pace that it sets. If other classes were brought down to similar levels I think games would be more consistent with the "slower, less bursty" playstyle that devs were promising for cata.

Of course, going along with that would be a significant reduction in self healing, possibly a flat % reduction in all healer output (just to balance against lower overall damage), and hopefully a reduction to the number of interrupts that can occur per time (whether by removing some from the game or increasing cooldowns or something).

Actually on that note, I really feel like spell pushback is kind of an outdated mechanic, from a time when there were only 3-4 interrupts in the game.

Ooohh well...
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#50 Tyumbra

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 08:12 PM

Oh no, please do, give us screenshots of a PvP geared Mage with double trinkets procced (which is what that hunter has) critting a 3k resil target for 40k+



I was too lazy to find a player, but here's a picture I just took of me on a target dummy.

Posted Image


So yeah. If I were on a 3200 resil player I would totally be hitting for over 40k with my FFB! Or something.
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#51 Frostitutes

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 08:46 PM

Oh em gee I use V for Icy Veins too!

Now to respond to the naysayer.

This is what Styfey was wearing at the time of the screen shot: http://www.chardev.org/?profile=42106
As you can see there is no pve gear, no 372 weapon, in fact he's actually in mostly bloodthirsty gear.

The damage output was done with both trinkets up, and I did in fact have 3k resil equiped, as well as ice armor (contrary to those claiming I removed my gear for the tests). As stated before, there is absolutely no justification for being able to output 80k+ damage in a global cooldown, regardless of buffs / procs available in an arena setting.
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#52 Watlok

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:23 PM

Why whine about hunters? I played about 20-30 games vs hunter teams yesterday and the only thing that was retarded was my 7k sp casted frost bolts did 5.4k to the hunter while he was hitting me for ~18k-19k regularly and able to consistently kite me because of dk snares.

It blew that he could kite me, and it blows that I had to jump through flaming hoops to cast something that does 1/3 the ranged damage of most melee classes, but other than those two things hunter damage didn't seem out of control to me (~2500-2600 mmr hunter teams on bg9.)

Oh, and never being able to df->poly was dumb too. Actually, anything involving casting or my damage relative to theirs was completely stupid, but it wasn't because theirs was too high relative to health pools. I just felt mine was too low.

Edited by Watlok, 11 February 2011 - 09:26 PM.

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#53 Frostitutes

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:27 PM

so not only would you need to be wearing to agi proc trinkets and get a proc that you get maybe twice a match but also they both have to crit to do 80k dmg


Posted Image

Also, why do you need a proc to get off an aimed shot... Oh that's right, it's really hard to get off 1.7 second Aimed Shots with Rapid Fire up, I forgot.

If you ever do get the buff up, and you have rapid fire up, you win the game. It's incredibly stupid with the Master Marksman bug. You can get 4 stacks of Master Marksman, cast a Steady Shot, then hard cast an Aimed Shot. The initial casted Aimed Shot benefits from the Master Marksman's reduced focus, but does not consume the buff. You then get the instant cast Aimed Shot as your second global. You're then left with Rapid Fire still up, and 100 focus. So you could potentially hard cast another 1.7 second Aimed Shot (crazy I know, it's such a ridiculous cast time you'll never be able to get it off) then an instant Chimera Shot.

With the burst potential of Hunter's currently, you don't need to be doing consistent damage. All you need are a few globals under the right circumstance, which isn't exactly difficult to set up, to win games.

Edited by Frostitutes, 11 February 2011 - 09:32 PM.

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#54 inpulamea

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:31 PM

0-1% and 98-99% are exactly the same damage reduction values, what vileroze said is true, not what you're saying here. There's really no scaling problems with resil, but people look at it in a dumb way (98-99% = half as much damage, instead of 0-98% and 0-99% being 1% different)



You contradict yourself badly. 0-1% and 98-99% are exactly the same thing so I was right all along. REsilience scales by a liniar model and adding X ammount of ressilience will not have a greater effect if your base resilience will be higher

Basically villroze say that the net gain effect provided by X is greater if Y>Z
(X+Y>X+Z) if Y>Z statement that is FALSE

Also get your facts right. if current tax value is 20% and the government increases them to 25% the increase will be 25% or 5 PP. Stating that the increase will be 5% is WRONG

The bottom line is that the function that describes resilience gains is a simple F=aX+b with a liniar gain G=c*F

SO YOU WONT GO INSANE GOOD IF YOU STACK RESILIENCE. YOU GAIN THE SAME CONTRIBUTION
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#55 Kalibur32

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:33 PM

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Also, why do you need a proc to get off an aimed shot... Oh that's right, it's really hard to get off 1.7 second Aimed Shots with Rapid Fire up, I forgot.

If you ever do get the buff up, and you have rapid fire up, you win the game. It's incredibly stupid with the Master Marksman bug. You can get 4 stacks of Master Marksman, cast a Steady Shot, then hard cast an Aimed Shot. The initial casted Aimed Shot benefits from the Master Marksman's reduced focus, but does not consume the buff. You then get the instant cast Aimed Shot as your second global. You're then left with Rapid Fire still up, and 100 focus. So you could potentially hard cast another 1.7 second Aimed Shot (crazy I know, it's such a ridiculous cast time you'll never be able to get it off) then an instant Chimera Shot.


Reading comprehension

was talking about doing 80k which would require 2 aimed shots

and you more then likely wouldn't be at 100 focus again

Hunters are your counter class and they are no where near the most of your worry right now

If you exactly read my initial post this would be pretty clear

And once again if you read my post you'd see I could care less if they remove instant aimed or not but they should definitely not be nerfing our survivability like they just did

Edited by corcor32, 11 February 2011 - 09:35 PM.

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#56 Tyumbra

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:36 PM

The reason its hitting that high is how hunters scale with agi
with double agi procs your damage increased a ridicilous amount
so not only would you need to be wearing to agi proc trinkets and get a proc that you get maybe twice a match but also they both have to crit to do 80k dmg


Twice a match? What? The ICD of the proc trinkets is low and they have a decent chance to proc. Mine proc all the time - usually a little more spaced out, but frequently get both trinkets and my cloak all off at the same time. Unless the game was 30 seconds long where I'd nuke a healer down, I'd get 4-6 procs a game.

In this scenario its def not right but this will never happen in arena and if you want to take away instant aimed proc I would support it any day since it really doesn't do anything getting an average of 1 a game.


Wrong. That sort of thing happens ALL the time in Arenas. You usually don't see it right away up on AJ and are more likely to see it on the Blizzard forums.

Blizzard doesnt see this though they were so quick to hear the crying the randomly decided to make Masters Call worse then it was before patch making our survability even worse and debateably the worst in the game.


How was Masters Call "worse then it was before patch" when they only thing they did to it is made it a 35 second cooldown (as of today changed to 45) and increased the range from 25 yards to 40? There was no nerf.

You also have to understand that in a real arena situation Aimed Shot is much much much worse like i said doing a tops of 23k-24k for a 3 second cast and half your focus


Do you even do "real arena"? While I have no doubt that it's difficult to be in a situation where you're able to 3 second hard-cast an Aimed Shot, the point of your mechanics are to allow you an instant-cast with it, similar to how Hot Streak works for Fire.

Master's call is worse then before patch, glyph of conc doesn't work, and our aimed shot that was suppose to be 2.4 is 2.9. If you look at it as it now you'd realize we aren't that much stronger then pre patch where the class was atrocious and completely extinct in not only high end pvp but middle and low since the class was literally worthless


Master's Call wasn't worse until today when they made it dispellable, but it's a 4 second buff so unless someone is ready to remove it, you'll be fine.
Dunno about the glyph issue.








Regardless, I'm not complaining about Hunters. I'm happy their damage has been buffed enough to make them competitive, as it's all toward balancing the game. However, I think it's ridiculous that they have the possibility of doing unhealable damage in 1 second.

What I'm complaining about is that Mages were gimped beyond all reasonable understanding. There are two things to change that would allow Mages to be back into a good, balanced position - revert Shatter to it's old mechanic (or at least change it to under 25% crit = +50% crit on frozen targets, over 25% crit = x3 multiplier), un-nerf our Mastery.

Edited by Tyumbra, 11 February 2011 - 09:41 PM.

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#57 Kalibur32

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:40 PM

Not going to quote all that but I was talking about the instant aimed procs which happen tops of twice an arena

and yes Master's call being dispellable and a 45 second CD on a class with no trash buffs on their own is horrible and much worse the pre patch master call with less range (not a problem whatsoever with good pet management) and 15 second more CD (I am pretty sure any hunter would agree on this)

and as real arena comment, yes I do and once again go ahead and remove instant aimed shot I am pretty sure no hunter would agrue with this but you shouldn't be nerfing our survivability which is already as bad as it gets
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#58 Dutton

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:45 PM

You contradict yourself badly. 0-1% and 98-99% are exactly the same thing so I was right all along. REsilience scales by a liniar model and adding X ammount of ressilience will not have a greater effect if your base resilience will be higher

Basically villroze say that the net gain effect provided by X is greater if Y>Z
(X+Y>X+Z) if Y>Z statement that is FALSE

Also get your facts right. if current tax value is 20% and the government increases them to 25% the increase will be 25% or 5 PP. Stating that the increase will be 5% is WRONG

The bottom line is that the function that describes resilience gains is a simple F=aX+b with a liniar gain G=c*F

SO YOU WONT GO INSANE GOOD IF YOU STACK RESILIENCE. YOU GAIN THE SAME CONTRIBUTION


What affix and vileroze are saying isn't that resilience scales exponentially but it's effect is has on your health pool does, and they're correct.
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#59 Tyumbra

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:58 PM

Master's Call now has a 35-second cooldown, down from 1 minute, and its range has been increased to 40 yards, up from 25


That was with the patch.

The cooldown for Master's Call has been increased to 45 seconds, up from 35. In addition, it can now be dispelled.


This was hotfixed today.

Where the fuck are you getting a 15 second longer cooldown?
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#60 Iroe

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 10:03 PM

That was with the patch.



This was hotfixed today.

Where the fuck are you getting a 15 second longer cooldown?


He's saying he'd rather have it at 1 min, 25 yards, and undispellable vs 45s, 40 yards and dispellable.
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