Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help

[Guide] The Art of Roguecraft


  • Please log in to reply
43 replies to this topic

#1 Riodian

Riodian
  • Premium Junkies
  • Curse Premium
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Eredar
  • Blutdurst
  • Posts: 260
  • Talents: Subtlety
  • LocationGermany

Posted 21 January 2011 - 08:19 PM

Note: If you find some errors in content/spelling/grammar, post it! Thank you.

Posted Image


Contents:

1. Talents/Glyphs
• 1.1   Mutilate
• 1.2   Subtlety
2. Gearing
• 2.1  General
• 2.2  Enchants
• 2.3  Gemming
• 2.4  Reforging
3. Poisons
4. Macros
5. New Spells
6. Openers

• 6.1  Duels
• 6.2  Arena
7. Addons
• 7.1  General Addons
• 7.2  Rogue Addons
8. Tricks/Tips
9. Movement and Keybindings
10. Popular Setups


1. Talents/Glyphs

1.1 Mutilate:

Pros:
• High sustained damage
• A considerable amount of your damage ignores armor


Cons:
• Very bad mobility
• No Preparation


Common Specs:

31/0/10
It's the pure Damage spec (If you rarely get focused in your comp, this is the way to go)
You can also drop 2 points from Ruthlessness and take 3/3 Deadened Nervs instead.



31/2/8
It's THE "tank" spec (Recommended if you get trained very often)
You can also drop 2 points from Elusiveness and put them into Opportunity instead.




Glyphs:

Prime Glyphs:

Must-haves: Mutilate
Viable: Slice and Dice, Rupture, Vendetta


Major Glyphs:

Must-haves: Garrote
Viable: Sprint, Gouge, Cloak of Shadows, Blind, Fan of Knives and Kick


1.2 Subtlety:


Pros:
• High mobility
• Fast switches
• Preparation (Second smokebomb with Preparation Glyph)

• having a blast, while playing Subtlety

Cons:
-


Common Specs:

10/0/31
It's the highest damage Subtlety spec (If you play a comp where you are rarely focused, then it's the way to go).
You can drop 2 points from Quickening and get Improved Recuperate instead.



8/2/31
It's the survival spec for Subtlety.
You can drop 2 points from Quickening and get 3/3 Puncturing Wounds instead.


8/2/31
A good balance between Survival and Damage.
You can drop 2 points from Quickening and get 3/3 Puncturing Wounds instead.

Recommended Glyphs:

Prime Glyphs:

Shadow Dance, Backstab, Hemorrhage

Major Glyphs:
Garrote, Preparation, Blind (arguable)


2. Gearing:

2.1 General::

The melee yellow hit cap is 5%. (7% hit against Night Elves)
5% hit is a must have.



If you want to play both specs at a reasonable level or if you're not sure what you want to play, you should gear for haste. (Reforging, Gemming, Enchanting)

Posted Image
(Taken from here)

Take this table with a grain of salt, they're PvE values. However, this should give you a rough estimate of which stats are good and which aren't.

Mutilate:

Mutilate Stat Priority: 5% Hit > Agility > Mastery > Haste > Crit > Expertise
You should have 100 Spell Penetration to reduce the Spell Resistance through BoK, MotW and Mage Armor.


Subtlety:

Subtlety Stat Priority: 5% Hit > Agility > Crit > Haste > Mastery > Expertise


2.2 Enchants:


Head:
60 Agility and 35 haste rating (Arcanum of the Ramkahen; Requires Ramkahen - Revered)
60 Agility and 35 Resilience (Arcanum of Vicious Agility  40 Tol Barad marks from Tol Barad Quartermaster or 1000 honor from the PvP Vendor in Stormwind/Orgrimmar.

Shoulders:
50 Agility and 25 mastery rating (Greater Inscription of Shattered Crystal; Requires Therazane - Exalted)
50 Agility and 25 resilience rating (Greater Inscription of Vicious Agility)

Cloak:
65 Critical Strike rating (Enchant Cloak - Greater Critical Strike, expensive)
50 Critical Strike rating (Enchant Cloak - Critical Strike, cheap)
22 Agility (Enchant Cloak - Major Agility)
70 spell penetration (Enchant Cloak - Greater Spell Piercing

Chest:
40 Resilience (Enchant Chest - Mighty Resilience)
20 Stats (Enchant Chest - Peerless Stats)

Wrist:
50 Agility (Enchant Bracer - Agility, expensive)
50 Crit (Enchant Bracer - Critical Strike, cheap)
65 Haste (Enchant Bracer - Greater Speed, expensive)
50 Haste (Enchant Bracer - Speed, cheap)

Hands:

Mutilate:
65 Mastery (Enchant Gloves - Greater Mastery, expensive)
50 Mastery (Enchant Gloves - Mastery, cheap)

Subtlety:
50 Haste (Enchant Gloves - Haste, cheap)

Legs:
190 attack power and 55 critical strike rating. (Dragonscale Leg Armor)

Feet:
With Quickening: 35 Agility (Enchant Boots - Major Agility)
Without Quickening:
25 Agility and Minor Movement Speed (Enchant Boots - Assassin's Step, expensive)
30 Stamina and Minor Movement Speed(Enchant Boots - Earthen Vitality, cheap)

Weapons:
Main-hand:
Enchant Weapon - Landslide(expensive)
Enchant Weapon - Hurricane (cheap)
Off-hand:
Pyrium Weapon Chain

2.3 Gemming:

Meta:
54 Agility and 3% Increased Critical Damage (Agile Shadowspirit Diamond)
OR 54 Crit Rating and 1% Spell Reflect (Destructive Shadowspirit Diamond)


Red:
40 Agility (Delicate Inferno Ruby)

Orange:

Mutilate:
20 Agility + 20 Mastery Rating (Adept Ember Topaz)
20 Agility and +20 Resilience Rating (Lucent Ember Topaz)

Subtlety:
20 Agility + 20 Crit Rating ( Deadly Ember Topaz)

For both:
20 Agility + 20 Haste Rating (Deft Ember Topaz)

Purple:
20 Agility + 20 Hit (Glinting Demonseye; not Hit capped)
20 Agility + 30 Stamina (Shifting Demonseye; already Hit capped)

Blue:
50 Spell Penetration (Stormy Ocean Sapphire; Mutilate only)


Gemming Advice:

Mutilate:
20 Agility + 20 Resilience in yellow, unless you plan to wear 2-3 PvE items in which case 20 Agility + 20 Resilience in Red and 40 Resilience in Yellow.


Subtlety:
It's the best to go for 40 Agility almost everywhere (30% Agility through Specialization  and 5% Agility through Leather Specialization.)
unless you need the hit. In which case 20 Agility + 20 Hit in your blue sockets are probably the best bet.


2.4 Reforging:

Mutilate Priority: 5% Hit > Mastery > Haste > Crit > Expertise

Subtlety Priority: 5% Hit > Crit > Haste > Mastery > Expertise


3.0 Poisons


Posted Image
The proc chance of Wound Poison scales with weapon speed and it deals a small amount of damage.
It's good against melees and casters, because it does some damage and reduces the effects of all healing abilities by 10%.

Wound Poison proc chance based on weapon speed:

1.3 Speed - 46.43%
1.4 Speed - 50.00%
1.5 Speed - 53.57%
1.6 Speed - 57.14%
1.7 Speed - 60.71%
1.8 Speed - 64.29%
2.6 Speed - 92.86%
2.8 Speed - 100.00%

Posted Image
It doesn't scale with the weapon speed, it's a set Proc Rate, so put this on a fast weapon
It's a must-have in PvP as Subtlety (Mutilate doesn't need Crippling Poison due to Deadly Brew)

Posted Image
It works like this:
Until you have a five stack up, it will regularly proc from whatever weapon you applied it to (it is not a PPM (It doesn't scale with the weapon speed, it's a set Proc Rate, so put this on a fast weapon).
When it does reach five stacks, procs will not only refresh the Stack, it will also Proc the Poison from your other weapon.

This mechanic makes very potent when used in combination with a Poison that deals direct damage (Wound Poison and Instant Poison). Because it increases the amount of hits from your other Poison it has amazing synergy with Instant Poison and is responsible for Assassinations high damage.

Posted Image
This poison deals a decent amount of damage (albeit only with Improved Poisons, Mutilate Mastery and Vile Poisons).
The proc chance scales with weapon speed; the slower the weapon the higher the proc chance.
Dealing only auto attacks the damage from this poison is the same no matter what the weapon speed is.
Including specials, the damage scales a lot better with slow weapons, as it proccs off of any mainhand attack.
Due to this mechanic it is clearly the best poison as Assassination for your mainhand, but it also makes it a rather bad poison for Subtlety (it lacks Improved Poisons, Vile Poisons, Mutilate Mastery, as well as an offhand with Deadly poison on it).

Instant Poison proc chances WITHOUT Improved Poisons:

1.3 Speed - 18.57%
1.4 Speed - 20.00%
1.5 Speed - 21.43%
1.6 Speed - 22.86%
1.7 Speed - 24.29%
1.8 Speed - 25.71%
2.6 Speed - 37.14%
2.8 Speed - 40.00%

Instant Poison proc chances WITH Improved Poisons:

1.3 Speed - 27.86%
1.4 Speed - 30.00%
1.5 Speed - 32.14%
1.6 Speed - 34.29%
1.7 Speed - 36.43%
1.8 Speed - 38.57%
2.6 Speed - 55.71%
2.8 Speed - 60.00%

Posted Image
It doesn't scale with the weapon speed, it's a set Proc Rate.
It's great against casters, but useless against melees.


3.1 Mutilate:

Main Hand: Instant Poison
Off Hand: Deadly Poison
Throw Weapon: Mind-Numbing Poison or Wound Poison


3.2 Subtlety:

Main Hand: Wound Poison or Mind-Numbing Poison
Off Hand: Crippling Poison
Throw Weapon: Crippling Poison


4.Macros:
Poison Macros:

Replace Poison1/2/3/4 with the Poison you want.


#showtooltip

/use [modifier: alt] Poison1; [modifier: shift] Poison2; [modifier: ctrl] Poison3; Poison4

/use [button:1] 16; [button:2] 17; [button:3] 18

/click StaticPopup1Button1


Left mousebutton to apply on Main Hand.
Right mousebutton to apply on Off Hand.
Middle mousebutton to apply on Throw Weapon.



Tricks of the Trade on a friendly target:
Replace name with the name of the target that you want to buff with Tricks of the Trade.


#showtooltip

/cast [@name] Tricks of the Trade

Stealth Ability with Premeditation:
Replace abilityname with the wanted Ability.

#showtooltip abilityname

/cast Premeditation

/cast abilityname
Recommended abilities: Garrote, Cheap Shot and Ambush.

Combo Point Builder with startattack and [nostealth] (Add [nostealth] conditionals to every ability which is used out of stealth to avoid barlag issues):
Replace abilityname with a Combo Point Build ability.

#showtooltip

/startattack [nostealth]

/cast [nostealth] abilityname
Recommended abilities: Hemorrhage, Backstab, Mutilate and Shiv.

Sap:
It trys to sap the nearest enemy player.



#showtooltip

/cleartarget

/targetenemyplayer

/cast Sap


Focus Redirect and Focus Kidney Shot after that:

#showtooltip

/castsequence [@focus] reset=20 Redirect, Kidney Shot
Improved Preparation :

#showtooltip Preparation

/castsequence reset=10 !Sprint,null

/stopcasting

/cast Preparation
Blind Arena Target 1/2/3/4/5:
Replace X with 1,2 or 3.

/cast [@arenaX] Blind

Focus Arena Target X:
It's a fast and good way, to manage the focus targets in arena. (You have to replace X with 1,2 or 3 per macro)

/focus arenaX
You can drop Blind arena1/2/3 if you use this macros with a focus blind macro.
Obviously if you have the spare binds, then it's better to have both /focus arenaX and /cast[@arenaX]Blind macros, but if you don't then the setup above gives you a bit more flexibility.



Shadow Dance:
Activating Shadow Dance on the first use, while in Shadow Dance you're casting Garrote with Premeditation. Saves a keybind for Garrote.

#show tooltip Shadow Dance

/cast Premeditation

/cast Garrote
/cast Shadow Dance

Barlag Avoidance:
Shadow Dance [stance:3]
Stealth [stance:1]
Vanished [stance:2]
Without Stealth/Vanish/Shadow Dance [stance:0]
This macro avoids the annoying barlag.

#showtooltip

/cast [stance:0] Z

/startattack [nostealth]

/cast [stance:3] X

/cast [stance:1/2/3] Premeditation

/cast [stance:1/2] Y

Gouge/Sap:
While Shadow Dance and Stealthed you're casting Sap otherwise you're casting Gouge.


#showtooltip

/cast [stance:0] Gouge

/cast [stance:1/2/3] Sap


A great way to bind focus cast on your abilities.(You have to pick ONE modifier:)
#showtooltip

/cast [@focus, mod:SHIFT/ALT/CTRL][@target, nomod] Abilityname


If you use the keybind of your ability without the modifier, you're casting on your target. If you press the modifier and the keybind of the ability, you're casting on your focus target.

Recommended abilities: Redirect, Kidney Shot, Gouge, Sap, Kick, Disarm, Blind, Shadow Step and Cheap Shot.

Focus only Macros:

Replace abilityname with the ability you want.


#showtooltip

/cast [@focus] abilityname
Recommended abilities: Redirect, Kidney Shot, Gouge, Sap, Disarm, Blind, Shadow Step and Cheap Shot.

5. New Spells

Posted Image
There are so many uses with this spell.
Avoiding CCs, nuke targets in a Smoke Bomb (with Kidney Shot, when trinket is already down), forcing trinket (Kidney Shot + Smoke Bomb), saving your mates, Dispel protection on CC’d targets, etc.
My favorite one is that it breaks Stealth on your enemies (NOT Vanish)


Posted Image
Good spell for fast, unexpected switches (5 CP Kidney Shot after Redirect)

Posted Image
Very nice spell. With Improved Recuperate it increases your survival by a good margin.

Posted Image
Very strong defensive cooldown against melees/Hunters. Useless against casters that don't have a pet that deals physical damage.

6. Openers

6.1 Duels

Against Casters:


Against Non Mages:

Subtlety:
Sap Posted Image Garrote (with  Premeditation and without breaking Sap) Posted Image Shiv (for Crippling Poison Proc) Posted Image Backstab/Hemorrhage Posted Image Kidney Shot ~0,2 seconds before the Garrote Silence fades.


Mutilate:
Sap Posted Image Garrote Posted Image Envenom (to stack Deadly Poison up) Posted Image 2x Mutilate Posted Image Kidney Shot

Against Mages:

Subtlety:
Sap Posted Image Garrote (with Premeditation) without breaking Sap Posted Image instantly Kidney Shot him Posted Image spam Backstab/Eviscerate until the Silence fades (you can use Shadow Dance at this point and spam Ambush instead of backstab).

Mutilate:
Don't even try to duel a Mage.

Against Melees:


Non Warriors:

Subtlety:
Sap Posted Image Garrote (with Premeditation) Posted Image 2x Backstab/Hemorrhage Posted Image Kidney Shot (from behind)



Mutilate:
Sap Posted Image Garrote Posted Image 2x Mutilate Posted Image Kidney Shot

Warriors:

Subtlety:
Sprint/Dark FlightPosted Image Garrote (with Premeditation) Posted Image Hemorrhage (for the bleed debuff) Posted Image Backstab Posted Image Kidney Shot (from behind)


Mutilate:
Sprint/Dark Flight Posted Image SapPosted Image Garrote Posted Image 2x Mutilate Posted Image Kidney Shot


6.2 Arena

Mutilate and Subtlety:
Most of the time you have to open with Cheap Shot instead of Garrote followed by a Kidney Shot, because the enemy can easily run away


7. Addons

7.1 General Addons


Posted Image
LoseControl makes it easy to see the duration of crowd control spells by displaying them in a dedicated icon onscreen.




Posted Image
OmniCC is an addon that adds text to items/spells/abilities that are on cooldown to indicate when they'll be ready for use.


Posted Image
Gladius adds enemy unit frames to arenas for easier targeting and focusing. It is highly configurable and you can disable most features of this addon.



Posted Image
Quartz is a highly configurable cast bar addon.


Posted Image
Tidy Plates enhances World of Warcraft's nameplates (ie. floating health bars) and provides a built-in API which can be used to create your own design.


Posted Image
This addon places a highlighted border around various enemy buffs on the target and focus frames that your class is able to dispel, just like a rogue sees a border around buffs he can Shiv dispel.

Posted Image
This Addon says a clear /say message when you kick something, immediately letting your teamates know you locked a school of the enemy and that your kick is on cooldown.


7.2 Rogue Addons
Soon™

#2 Riodian

Riodian
  • Premium Junkies
  • Curse Premium
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Eredar
  • Blutdurst
  • Posts: 260
  • Talents: Subtlety
  • LocationGermany

Posted 21 January 2011 - 08:20 PM

8.0 Tricks/Tips

Diminishing returns:


-Sap/Gouge: Freezing Trap (:hunter:), Hex (:shaman:), Polymorph (:mage:), Ring of Frost(:mage:), Hibernate (:druid:)

-Cheap Shot/Kidney Shot: with every Stun but Impact Stun (:mage:) and Brutal Earthstorm Diamond's RNG stun.

-Blind: with Fear effects like Fear(:warlock:), Psychic Scream (:priest:), Intimidating Shout (:warrior:).

Avoiding Dodge/Parry:
You are a melee, so try to be behind your target all the time to avoid annoying dodges/parries from the enemy player.

CC'd targets can't dodge. If you're not able to go behind the target, you can just Gouge him then Kidney Shot him afterwards to get a clean Kidney Shot. You're teammates can also fear the target to get a clean Kidney Shot.

Stealth openers can't be dodged/parried.

Throw:
You can apply any poison at range via Throw.
Usage:
If you need to peel a melee of your healer but you're on another target at range.
If someone is kiting you and isn't slowed, then Throw (applying Crippling Poison) is a good idea to slow him.
Bringing someone infight is also possible through Throw.

Out of Combat:
In PvP, a player will leave combat if they have not attacked or been attacked for 6 seconds, or all the enemy characters that have attacked you are killed.

You should take every opportunity to get a restealth as often as possible as mutilate to get Overkill rolling. (Even if you have dots on you and it'll break immediately)

Focus Kidney Shot (with 5 combo points) is a 6 seconds stun, if nothing hits the target he's going out of combat, then you can Vanish/Shadow Dance Posted Image Sap him. (Works with every CC like Polymorph, Fear, Hex, Cyclone etc.)


Shiv:
It’s impossible to parry/dodge Shiv.
Use it against Rogues with Evasion up to get CPs.
It also dispels enrage effects. When you Gouge/Sap a Warrior he will probably use Berserker Rage to remove Gouge/Sap, then shiv dispel it and your partner can fear the warrior easily.

Cloak of Shadows:
You can immune already flying casts like Death Coil (Neilyo the Death Coil!)

Shadowstep (obvious):
Shadowstep ports you behind the target. Use Kidney Shot/Disarm after Shadowstep to get a clean Kidney Shot/Disarm (well, most of the time).

9. Movement and Keybind Tips

Clicking is bad, use keybinds instead; it’s a key to be successful in PvP (faster reactions, better overview of your surroundings).

Unbind strafe from Q and E and bind it on A and D you should use Q and E as keybinds instead. (You don’t need keyboardturning, because Q and E are excellent keybinds they are easy and fast to reach with your fingers. Keyboardturning is also bad in PvP, it's way too slow.) Or you can just unbind A and D and use those as keybinds. It doesn’t matter too much, if you do have turn bound to A and D and just strafe with the right mouse button held down, but generally strafing is better (but keyboardturning is great when you’re trying to eat something while in a bg or raiding.)

It's good idea to bind "ALT/CTRL/SHIFT + MouseWheel Up/Down" for some fast and easy-to-access binds.

10.Popular Setups:

2on2:

:mage::rogue: : Frost :mage: Shadow Dance :rogue:

:rogue::warlock: : Shadow Dance :rogue: :warlock: (Affliction or Destruction)

:druid::rogue: : Restoration :druid: Mutilate :rogue:

3on3:

RLS: Mutilate or Shadow Dance  :rogue:    Restoration :shaman: Affliction :warlock:

RMP: Mutilate or Shadow Dance :rogue: Frost :mage: Discipline or Holy :priest:

Shadow RMP: Shadow Dance or Mutilate :rogue: Frost :mage: Shadow :priest:

Special thanks:

Zoesan
Ghoruz
Grungé

Posted Image
Rogue Guide

#3 ceqqx

ceqqx
  • Members
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Stormreaver
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 472
  • Talents: Frost

Posted 21 January 2011 - 08:24 PM

kewl

"and no men are free to disagree,
without facing their mortality..."

Posted Image

Spoiler


#4 Kaedos

Kaedos
  • Junkies
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • EU-Haomarush
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 98
  • Talents: Subtlety
  • LocationFinland

Posted 21 January 2011 - 08:28 PM

Combat readiness isn't exactly useless vs casters, as you can pop it vs warlocks if they have their pet on you or vs a shadow priest when they use their shadowfiend.

#5 Plug

Plug
  • Members
  • Taurenclass_name
  • EU-Daggerspine
  • Cataclysme / Cataclysm
  • Posts: 17
  • Talents:

Posted 21 January 2011 - 08:33 PM

Good start. I look forward to the finished product. You need to switch you orange gems for the specs though.

#6 Riodian

Riodian
  • Premium Junkies
  • Curse Premium
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Eredar
  • Blutdurst
  • Posts: 260
  • Talents: Subtlety
  • LocationGermany

Posted 21 January 2011 - 08:33 PM

Kaedos said:

Combat readiness isn't exactly useless vs casters, as you can pop it vs warlocks if they have their pet on you or vs a shadow priest when they use their shadowfiend.

yeah you're right, totally forgot that. Thanks
Posted Image
Rogue Guide

#7 Chriz

Chriz
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Kazzak
  • Misery
  • Posts: 57
  • Talents: Subtlety
  • RBG: 192

Posted 21 January 2011 - 08:41 PM

Just a hit, this is a better prep macro which doesnt matter if you spam it or not:

#showtooltip Preparation
/castsequence [nostealth] reset=10 !Evasion,null
/castsequence reset=10 !Sprint,null
/stopcasting
/cast Preparation


, adding this macro aswell, for stancelag:

#show Backstab
#showtooltip
/cast [stance:0] Backstab
/cast [stance:3] Ambush
/Cast [stance:1] Premeditation
/cast [stance:1] Cheap Shot

#8 Riodian

Riodian
  • Premium Junkies
  • Curse Premium
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Eredar
  • Blutdurst
  • Posts: 260
  • Talents: Subtlety
  • LocationGermany

Posted 21 January 2011 - 09:03 PM

Which openers do you use in duels against specific classes?  (Subtlety)

caster:

against non-mages: Sap -> Garrote (with  Premeditation) -> Shiv (for Crippling Poison Proc) -> Backstab/Hemorrhage -> Kidney Shot ~0,2 seconds before the Garrote Silence fades?

mages: Sap -> Garrote (with Premeditation) without breaking Sap -> instantly Kidney Shot him -> spam Backstab/Eviscerate until the Silence fades?

melees:

non-warriors: Garrote (with Premeditation) -> 2x Backstab/Hemorrhage -> Kidney Shot ?

warriors: Cheap Shot (with Premeditation) -> Hemorrhage (for the bleed debuff) -> Backstab -> Kidney Shot ?
Posted Image
Rogue Guide

#9 Ghoruz

Ghoruz
  • Members
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Twisting Nether
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 639
  • Talents: Subtlety

Posted 21 January 2011 - 09:09 PM

Riodian said:



Subtlety Priority: 5% Hit > Haste > Mastery > Crit > Expertise


Crit is way better for sub than mastery is.


Secondly - I think as this is a guide for newbies, you might wanna add somewhere on stat priorities that if they are not sure that they are going to stick to one spec - it's recommended to go for haste as it is viable for both specs.

Since you didn't add any relative values for the stats it can be hard for new rogues to figure that out for themselves.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

#10 Riodian

Riodian
  • Premium Junkies
  • Curse Premium
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Eredar
  • Blutdurst
  • Posts: 260
  • Talents: Subtlety
  • LocationGermany

Posted 21 January 2011 - 09:13 PM

Ghoruz said:

Crit is way better for sub than mastery is.


Secondly - I think as this is a guide for newbies, you might wanna add somewhere on stat priorities that if they are not sure that they are going to stick to one spec - it's recommended to go for haste as it is viable for both specs.

Since you didn't add any relative values for the stats it can be hard for new rogues to figure that out for themselves.

Is crit really that much better, even with the mastery buff (2,5% per Mastery instead 2%)? I'm not really sure about that tbh.
Gonna add that, thanks.
Posted Image
Rogue Guide

#11 Ghoruz

Ghoruz
  • Members
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Twisting Nether
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 639
  • Talents: Subtlety

Posted 21 January 2011 - 09:32 PM

Riodian said:

Is crit really that much better, even with the mastery buff? I'm not really sure about that tbh.
Gonna add that, thanks.

It is that much better, even after patch.

Current EP value for Mastery as sub is 0.7

Current EP value for Crit is 1.1

These values are from PvE where they count on you have rupture and SnD up 100% (which benefit from our mastery) - In PvP as SuB you definitely don't keep rupture for shit and SnD varies but still nowhere near 100%. So basically the only effective benefit mastery brings to rogues in PvP is eviscerate (and partly SnD). This evidently makes mastery much worse in PvP than it is in PvE (where it's already shit).

a 25% buff to our mastery won't even be near to put mastery on pair with crit, miles from.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

#12 Ghoruz

Ghoruz
  • Members
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Twisting Nether
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 639
  • Talents: Subtlety

Posted 21 January 2011 - 10:09 PM

You could add to rogue tricks:

1: That you can apply crippling poison / any poison at range via normal throw and add a few example of its uses ( example: if you need to peel a melee of your healer but you're on another target at range) - So many rogues I've met on alts and main don't use this properly

2: Focus kidney shot into sap for extra CC

Also I am pretty sure I didn't see anything about weapon speeds during any point in the guide.

Somewhere squeeze into the guide somewhere that you should take every opportunity to get a restealth as often as possible as mutilate to get overkill rolling. (even if you have 1000x dots and it'll break immediately)

To always kidney shot from behind (seems extremely basic but I am sure some people don't know this) and if not being able to get behind, gouge --> kidney shot to prevent kidney from being dodged / parried. Could also try to add in / explain that people who are feared / polymorphed / stunned cannot dodge and that it might be a good idea to ask for a fear from your warlock if you wanna KS a rogue with evasion up.


Make a section for our DRs - Explain what DR is and make a list of which of our abilities share DR with other stuff.


Btw, I don't mind giving you a helping hand if you'd need one.

Anyway, nice start on the guide - lacks some min / maxing but looks promising.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

#13 Malladon

Malladon
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Mal'Ganis
  • Stormstrike
  • Posts: 1410
  • Talents: Subtlety 1/2/2/1/1/0
  • RBG: 1781

Posted 21 January 2011 - 10:17 PM

Nice work, maybe this is fodder for another thread but I'm rather convinced that Crit>Mastery as sub, at least to somewhere between 30-40% crit.

edit: just saw others mentioned it as well

#14 Kzrs

Kzrs
  • Karzerus
  • Members
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • US-Kel'Thuzad
  • Nightfall
  • Posts: 4427
  • Talents: Assassination

Posted 21 January 2011 - 10:44 PM

All the pretty pictures, fonts, and borders in this guide make me want to play a rogue again.

#15 Ghoruz

Ghoruz
  • Members
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Twisting Nether
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 639
  • Talents: Subtlety

Posted 21 January 2011 - 10:46 PM

Malladon said:

Nice work, maybe this is fodder for another thread but I'm rather convinced that Crit>Mastery as sub, at least to somewhere between 30-40% crit.


Not even at 80% crit would mastery be better than crit.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

#16 Shyter

Shyter
  • Junkies
  • Goblinclass_name
  • US-Skullcrusher
  • Ruin
  • Posts: 109
  • Talents: Subtlety

Posted 22 January 2011 - 05:33 AM

So far its looking great, keep it up! :D

Ghoruz said:

Make a section for our DRs - Explain what DR is and make a list of which of our abilities share DR with other stuff.

Yeah just make a quick and simple list, could even add the spell links if the guide is for the new players, sumthing like:

Quote

-Sap/Gouge :   freezing trap, hex, polymorph, ring of frost
-Kidney/CS :   every other stun but :mage:'s impact or other "Random stuns"
-Blind  :       fear effects (:warlock:,:priest:,:warrior:)
Sum other thing to note for poisons is the ones where procrate can be based on wep speed, you can even macro a 3.0 throwing wep with wound on it for 100% Fan of Knives crippling chance, tho the added gcd on it doesn't always make it practical.

I also have fun making merged macroes if you need any,like saping if in stealth/dance, gouge otherwise, with built-in modifier check to use it on focus, tho thats mostly just to save keybinds

The addon list you got going is great, all addons I've been suggesting to guildies/teamates. I use a truckload of addons, tho I wouldn't say any of them are required, tho nothing beats a well customized platebuffs or powerauwa. :cool:
I'm personally a fan of I Interrupted that addon for the new players, or those who aren't yet used to calling it out when they used their kick. It says a clear /say message when you kick sumthing, immediatly letting your teamates know you locked their school and that your kick is on cooldown, as well as a link of the spell to click on it (for lol pve)

#17 Riodian

Riodian
  • Premium Junkies
  • Curse Premium
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Eredar
  • Blutdurst
  • Posts: 260
  • Talents: Subtlety
  • LocationGermany

Posted 22 January 2011 - 09:36 AM

quick update:
DR section added (@Tricks/Tips)
I Interrupted That added to the adddon list

Now I'm going to work (I will be back in ~11 hours)
keep the feedback rolling!

still:

Riodian said:

Which openers do you use in duels against specific classes?  (Subtlety)

caster:

against non-mages: Sap -> Garrote (with  Premeditation) -> Shiv (for Crippling Poison Proc) -> Backstab/Hemorrhage -> Kidney Shot ~0,2 seconds before the Garrote Silence fades?

mages: Sap -> Garrote (with Premeditation) without breaking Sap -> instantly Kidney Shot him -> spam Backstab/Eviscerate until the Silence fades?

melees:

non-warriors: Garrote (with Premeditation) -> 2x Backstab/Hemorrhage -> Kidney Shot ?

warriors: Cheap Shot (with Premeditation) -> Hemorrhage (for the bleed debuff) -> Backstab -> Kidney Shot ?
thanks so far
Posted Image
Rogue Guide

#18 Ashe

Ashe
  • Members
  • Worgenclass_name
  • EU-Kor'gall
  • Cruelty / Crueldad
  • Posts: 1838
  • Talents: Assassination

Posted 22 January 2011 - 01:04 PM

I'd argue that for mutilate FoK glyph is a must-have (12y vs 8y ranged snare), and Blind is just viable.

From what I've heard, PvP Shoulder enchant will also be from Therazane, PvP Helm Enchant from Tol'Barad.

Leg enchants:
Mutilate: Dragonscale is by far superior unless you really feel that 145 stamina is crucial.
Subtlety: Even with the +5% agi in the next patch from a pure offensive standpoint Dragonscale is superior, albeit by a considerably smaller margin than for Mutilate.
I would probably choose Dragonscale still, since Subtlety doesn't really have survivability issues.

Gemming:
For Mutilate: Agi+Resi in yellow, unless PvE Heroing 2-3 items in which case I'd argue 20agi/20res in Red and 40res in Yellow.
Sub: AGI everywhere, unless focused often.
Blue Gems: There's 3 in (full) PvP gear so you should always use Glinting since 3x20 = 60, Reforging Epic PvP hit bracers/ring = 51.
Better to be slightly overcap (helps vs nightelf 7% miss) than to take Stamina.
Alternatively as Mutilate you'll only have 1 or 2 (depending on if you go for 120 or 190 SpellPen), but still, no reason why not to go for Glinting.

Poisons:
Wound on Thrown for Mutilate gives a much higher Crippling proc chance when fok'ing/dt'ing.
Which can be more useful than mind-numbing vs most comps.

Macros:
I would add [stealth]/[nostealth] conditionals to everything due to barlag, ie:

Quote

/startattack [nostealth]
/cast [nostealth] <AbilityName>


Also I would recommend using:

Quote

/cast [@focus, mod:shift][@target, nomod] <AbilityName>
For all abilities over Focus Key option since it gives you a slightly better flexibility when it comes to binds.

For example: Backstab on 3, Blind on shift-3.
With Focus Key set to shift, it would try to Backstab focus target, instead of Blinding*.

Arena Blind.
Imo it's better to have 3 arena focus macros:

Quote

/focus arena1, /focus arena2, etc.
and a single bind for blind.
Unfortunately this means that you have to press 2 buttons if you're not expecting that your blind target changes.
However in most cases I find it better since this allows you to also focus dismantle/gouge/kick more easily.

Obviously if you have the spare binds, then it's better to have both /focus arenaX and /cast[@arenaX]Blind macros, but if you don't then the setup above gives you a bit more flexibility.



* - Correct me if this is wrong.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

#19 Riodian

Riodian
  • Premium Junkies
  • Curse Premium
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Eredar
  • Blutdurst
  • Posts: 260
  • Talents: Subtlety
  • LocationGermany

Posted 22 January 2011 - 08:40 PM

Thank you Grunge! Added everything you mentioned!

UPDATE: Picture added, Enchants fixed, Gemming fixed, some Macros added

Edit: added new tricks. (Thanks Ghoruz)

Edit 2: added some popular setups, some basic movement/keybinding tips and special thanks

to do for tomorrow: Poisons clarifications, Gemming advices (text), best openers in duels (vs specific classes) and arena (vs specific classes) and finding some useful rogue specific addons
Posted Image
Rogue Guide

#20 Strid

Strid
  • Members
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Thunderlord
  • Vindication
  • Posts: 43
  • Talents: Unholy
  • LocationToronto

Posted 24 January 2011 - 12:01 AM

I Interrupted That addon doesn't work.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users

<